Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Isn't that the point of this thread, to discuss the merits of Atlanta, Miami, Tampa or Charlotte/NC and their strategic importance to MLS? All the while realizing that none of us is secretly a billionaire with the ability to actually do so? And while I stick with my belief that Atlanta & Charlotte/Raleigh are not good choices for MLS expansion, if an owner steps up and builds a stadium (or expands one) and will pay the expansion fee, then I think that they'll be welcomed into MLS by most. Now that this disclaimer has been posted can we get back to arguing the merits of a southeastern team?
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? 1. Tampa-St.Petersburg-Clearwater has a population of 4 million people 2. TSC area has a flourishing youth program and college teams as well as great statistics and reputation 3. Tampa already had a team the Mutiny which was misfinanced by the MLS back then and was disbanded...so the area already qualifies for a team 4. Bradenton Soccer Academy is the home of past,present,and future U.S National team players 5. A recent friendly game between US and Equador drew over 30,000 fans to Tampa
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? And Tampa would be a great regional rival for an Atlanta or Carolina team
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Those are the facts that people like Veruca don't know, they come on this thread and make blanket statements with out facts to back up anything they say. The Southeast is a very unique place and what is the norm or common in Atlanta or New Orleans is not for the rest of the region. Tampa, Orlando and Miami are cities not common to southern norms...most people out side of the region can't understand this and more so when people say Florida is not the south even when it's located in the south. The problem in Florida with both MLS teams wasn't due to the area or any lack of support propaganda to justify the disbanding of both Florida MLS clubs, Tampa was ran by the league because they had no owner/investor in the same way San Jose and a few other teams were back then and the Tampa club was becoming a drain on the league and in Miami ownership didn't have enough money to stay committed for the long term and the league didn't want to take on the responsibility of another team, so the league folded both the Tampa and Miami clubs. This in no way means the area couldn't support soccer if done correctly, and that is why the league haven't closed the door on these markets. Don Garber himself has stated before, the Florida market is important to the future and growth of the sport in America. People like Veruca would want to talk about the so-called lack of soccer support in this region and yet he is from Utah and don't support the club from his own region...that's what I find most funny! He stated on a past posting on this thread in Miami we only support our clubs when they are winning, I guess that kind of thing happeneds in Utah also right? Houston would be glad to know they have one more Utah supporter in Mr. Veruca! Great facts about the support the Tampa area has for the sport!
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Jacksonville doesnt support anything other than the Florida Gators. Look at the Jaguars, they are in the NFL, are decent every year, including 5-3 this year, and yet they have already had two home games blacked out (should have been three but they got the NFL to give them a pass on their opener). I am a northerner who has lived in the South long enough to realize that southerners dont give a crap about any sport other than college football. Sure there are a few other teams/sports they notice in various locales, but the South is not a viable option for an MLS team. I would love to see a team here in Jax, but I would feel really awful when I am sitting with about 2-3k other people in the stadium. Aside from a lack of support, playing soccer in the south during the summer is just godawful. I have no idea how they do it in Houston. Tampa on the other hand...I can see that working now with good ownership, but not above Philly, St Louis, and Seattle. Hell I even want to see Montreal in there first.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? All very true. Also, the Tampa Bay Rowdies were one of the top drawing NASL clubs, after the Cosmos, averaging over 30,000 a game by 1979/1980. The Ft. Lauderdale Strikers also drew well, and formed a very hot cross-state rivalry with the Rowdies. People who don't know this history should educate themselves. The Mutiny and Fusion also were nowhere near the worst drawing MLS clubs, either. Soccer didn't "fail" in Florida; MLS failed soccer in Florida. Big difference.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Better: bring back the Tampa Bay Rowdies, instead of the Mutes. And later if feasible, bring back the Ft. Lauderdale Strikers instead of the Fuses. Much better soccer history, there.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? OK again, I lived in Houston from 1980 - 1998, and again from 2001-2004. That's why I cheer for the Dynamo, and I still have no idea how that's relevant to anything that we're talking about that here. And if you really want my honest opinion, I have no idea why MLS thought that Salt Lake was a good market for soccer. And even with the new stadium, I don't really think that they're going to be much better off than the Crew in a few years. And just so that you know, I am trying to provide some perspective from what the rest of the country is thinking in regards to MLS teams in the southeast. Of course everyone in the southeast thinks that MLS needs to expand there. They want a team. But I'm trying to tell you that in most other people's eyes, they're at best the 5th or 6th best option when it comes to expansion at this point. The reasons for that are simple, in the south you find a disproportionate number of teams that are not well supported (excluding the NFL, because unless you suck or are Jacksonville you sell out every game). This is because the entertainment dollar goes to other things like college sports, NASCAR, Golf and the fact that most of the south is very close to the beach. There are just a lot of other things to do. It makes it a nice place to live, but not necessarily a great place to put a team.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? You're insane. Not only are you saying top 50 markets, you're qualifying that with "in the south"??!?! Define south and then show me the 50th market.....no, 30th market.....hell, even the 20th market. Depending on your "definition," I'm very curious as to what it is. Even your Orlando would be higher than that....oh wait....you're supporting RSL.....no wait...Philly. ?!? *I'll actually try and read past the first page when I have time.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Veruca, your points are your points, but as for this post I can respect it! In this thread we are all talking about soccer and how successful it can be in the Southeast and as a past posting stated Tampa, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale has more of a strong soccer history than anywhere else in the Souheast. Yes, you are correct the area is a great place to live.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? I was hoping that my previous posts would help to prove to you that the idea that Southern teams (at least Atlanta teams) aren't supported is patently untrue. Atlanta supports its teams as well as, if not better than, Chicago or Boston. We look forward to the time when you move back to the South (Texas is kind of Southern). Bet you would make a great Atlanta FC fan!
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Rowdies4ever, thanks for reminding me of the strong soccer history in both Tampa and Ft. Lauderdale/Miami, you've made some good points here. But the best statement of all is when you said "Soccer didn't "fail" in Florida; MLS failed soccer in Florida. Big difference." Stay tuned to the near future maybe in 2011 Florida will see a MLS club again...
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? NHL 1. Atlanta (21st, 16,229, 87.5%) 2. Boston (25th, 14,764, 79.3%) 3. Chicago (29th, 12,727, 62.1%) (OK, so they all suck, but Atlanta won the Southeast Division.) NBA 1. Chicago (1st, 22,160, 96.9%) 2. Boston (20th, 16,843, 85.9%) 3. Atlanta (26th, 15,594, 78.0%) (Chicago in a class by themselves & remember that again Atlanta finished ahead of Boston in the standings, but not in the playoffs) MLB 1. Chicago Cubs (6th, 40,153, 97.7%) 2. Boston Red Sox (11th, 36,675, 101.4%) 3. Atlanta (14th, 33,891, 67.7%) 4. Chicago White Sox (15th, 33,140, 81.6%) (Just a couple hundred fans from having 2 Chicago teams ahead of Atlanta.) College Football 1. Georgia (5th, 92,746, 100%) 2. Auburn (13th, 84,294, 96.4%) 3. Notre Dame (16th, 80,795, 100%) 4. Georgia Tech (44th, 50,296, 91.5%) 5. Boston College (54th, 41,571, 93.45) 6. Connecticut (62nd, 37,906, 94.8%) (Huge Competition For Sports $$$, and within 100 miles of Atlanta there are 3 big time programs drawing 227,336 fans.) I am not sure where the numbers show that they're better than Chicago or Boston. And I wouldn't be a ASC fan since I'd be rooting for the Dynamo to pound them into the ground.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Well South Florida won the Big East Championship with Georgetown 4-0
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Don't forget the NFL NFL 1. New England (15, 68,756, 101.1%) 2. Atlanta (16, 68,341, 95.9%) 3. Chicago (29, 62,134, 92.8%) (This in a year when N.E. is probably one of the best teams in history, Chicago went to the Super Bowl last year and Atlanta has, well, had Michael Vick) Agree that for Atlanta and College Football, you should add support for Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina, Clemson and Florida State. Your point was that Atlanta (and the Southeast) do not support their teams. The stats show that they support their teams as well as two cities known as great "sports towns". The numbers quoted are the latest years but it has been similar over the past say 5 years. If you look at the numbers, accross a wide variety of sports, Atlanta supports their teams as well as these other great cities. There is no reason to think MLS would be any different. Once we get our team, we will happily take the Dynamo out behind the woodshed!
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Did you look at the numbers or what? Atlanta wasn't the same as these other cities, it was worse. And it has to compete with way more college teams than any other city, because of it's proximity to all SEC teams. NHL - Atlanta was 21st in the league, even though they won their division. Boston & Chicago were below Atlanta, but they had terrible teams. NBA - Atlanta was the worst of the 3 at 26th in the league. They also had a better team than Boston, which was 6 places higher. MLB - Atlanta barely beat out the 2nd team in Chicago. And they only sold 67.7% of their stadium. That isn't good for the club. NFL - I don't like to use the NFL, because if MLS sold tickets like the NFL then you'd have no problem expanding to any city that wanted to pay the $700M expansion fee. But looking at the NFL, Boston is selling more tickets than they have seats. Atlanta is beating Chicago handily, but this is the only sport that in which the numbers compare favorably for Atlanta. But you have to remember this is a sport where even the terrible Raiders can sell 90% of their stadium.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Ok, 5 year report is finished. It's not much different than the 2007 report, but you asked for it and now you have to have it. Code: [B][U]NFL - 2002/2007[/U][/B] [U]City[/U] [U]Rank[/U] [U]Attend[/U] [U]Pct Capacity[/U] 1) Atlanta 11.67 69,891 98.1% 2) Boston 15.33 68,649 100.9% 3) Chicago 27.33 61,816 91.5% [B][I]Start with the sport that means the least in determining fan support, becuase all team are above 90% capacity. Any owner in any league would be happy with any of these numbers.[/I][/B] Code: [B][U]NBA - 2003/2007[/U][/B] [U]City[/U] [U]Rank[/U] [U]Attend[/U] [U]Pct Capacity[/U] 1) Chicago 2.6 20,581 90.9% 2) Boston 18.6 16,646 85.9% 3) Atlanta 28 14,362 72.2% [B][I]These numbers aren't significantly different from the one year numbers. Atlanta went down, and Boston went up, so they look worse. Of course, Atlanta's numbers didn't look that good to begin with.[/I][/B] Code: [B][U]NHL - 2001/2007 (excluding 2005)[/U][/B] [U]City[/U] [U]Rank[/U] [U]Attend[/U] [U]Pct Capacity[/U] 1) Boston 22.17 15,318 82.3% 2) Atlanta 24 14,884 80.3% 3) Chicago 26 14,109 68.8% [B][I]Basically all these teams are terrible. That's not an argument for the support Atlanta gives it's teams, but an an argument against all these clubs. Contract them all, because no one seems to give a crap about any of them.[/I][/B] Code: [B][U]MLB - 2001/2007 (excluding 2005)[/U][/B] [U]City[/U] [U]Rank[/U] [U]Attend[/U] [U]Pct Capacity[/U] 1) Chicago (NL) 6.86 37,689 94.7% 2) Boston 11 34,546 99.1% 3) Atlanta 13.43 32,010 63.9% 4) Chicago (AL) 18.86 27,105 64.9% [B][I]So Atlanta's numbers aren't that bad, but the fact of the matter is that Boston & Chicago play in two of the smallest ballparks in MLB. They could sell way more tickets if there was anyway to expand the stadium beyond it's current capacity. And it's also disturbing that Chicago's second team is making a run to pass the Braves. If the Braves continue to hover in the middle of the NL East, expect the Sox to pass them as well.[/I][/B] Overall, Atlanta isn't bad, but it's not as good as Boston or Chicago. Chicago leads in two of the sports (baseball & basketball). Boston has 2 teams that are selling at or above capacity on nightly basis (baseball & football). These numbers combined with the overwhelming support of college sports in the area does not make me think that it's all that important to get a team in Atlanta or really the southeast in general.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? If this doesn't verify how popular soccer is in the Tampa area nothing will 2008 CONCACAF Under-23 Tournament – Olympic Qualifying – Tournament Details – Event: Eight-team tournament to decide two CONCACAF positions at 2008 Olympics Dates: March 10-23, 2008 Venues: Raymond James Stadium (Tampa, Fla.), The Home Depot Center (Carson, Calif.); LP Field (Nashville, Tenn.) Qualified Teams (5): USA, Mexico, Canada; Cuba, Haiti Potential Teams from Central America (3): Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama and El Salvador DateMatchesVenuesKickoff TimesMarch 11Group StageRaymond James Stadium - Tampa, Fla.5:30 p.m. & 8 p.m. ETMarch 12Group StageThe Home Depot Center - Carson, Calif.5:30 p.m. & 8 p.m. PTMarch 13Group StageRaymond James Stadium - Tampa, Fla. 5:30 p.m. & 8 p.m. ETMarch 14Group StageThe Home Depot Center - Carson, Calif.5:30 p.m. & 8 p.m. PTMarch 15Group StageRaymond James Stadium - Tampa, Fla. 4:30 p.m. & 7 p.m. ET March 16Group StageThe Home Depot Center - Carson, Calif.3:30 p.m. & 6 p.m. PT March 20SemifinalsLP Field - Nashville, Tenn.5 p.m. & 8 p.m. CT March 23Third-Place Game and ChampionshipLP Field - Nashville, Tenn.1 p.m. & 4 p.m. CT
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Great data, thanks for doing that. NFL - All solid numbers though am surprised at the numbers for Chicago. NBA - Only Chicago looks good. 2,300 difference in the NBA between Boston and Atlanta is not that meaningful. With the wooful team that Atlanta has (13-69 just a couple of years ago. 13-69!!), the small difference to the famed Celtics is pretty good. NHL - Not statistically different despite it being a Northern sport. MLB - I'll grant you that Boston and the Cubs could draw more fans, if their current parks held more. However, if you move those teams out of those parks (i.e. a bigger park), they would probably draw less in a few years. The fans go to Wrigley for the park, not for the team. Trust me on this one. It is sort of analogous to the SSS argument on these boards. Smaller park, more intiment, fans like the atmosphere and come back. Move the Cubs into Comiskey and they draw less than the Sox. 32k per game for Atlanta is very respectible, especially in rebuilding years. Oh, and remember, the White Sox won their first World Series in 86 years during that time and got record crowds for them. NCAA - I still don't get your argument. The fact that we support College Football shows that the city is supports its teams. Your argument would be similar to stating that the MLS shouldn't have gone to Houston or Dallas because High School football (as well as college) is so big. I think the MLS has done well there. Houston has crowds of over 30k for the last few games, playoffs included. Maybe strong NCAA support correlates to strong MLS support. In my mind, it helps, not hinders, an argument for an MLS team. I guess when I look at the data, I see that Atlanta supports their teams as well as these two cities, famed for their sports fanaticism. Maybe I am looking at it half full, while you are looking at it half empty.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? Are you trying to tell me that 2 of the 3 locations are in the Southeast?
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? I will try to spell out my argument a little bit in regards to the college sports aspect. I have a job. I have a wife, a house and two cars. Those things all cost money. I am a BYU graduate and fan. I go to every football game & as many basketball games as I can. Now why does that matter? Well for two reasons. One, they don't let me in to the games for free. I have to make a donation to the Cougar Club and then I have to buy my tickets. Now I'm pretty sure that they have something similar at Georgia, Georgia Tech, Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, etc. Now two, my wife has this funny notion that I can't spend all my money on sports tickets. I have to go to the movies on occasion. I have to go out to dinner. There are other things that I spend my money on. And again, I don't think that this is all that uncommon. And so you have people who's first allegiance is to college A, B or C and if they have extra money they may take in a professional event. So what does that mean? Or why is it relevant? Well, because in the south more than anywhere else, your base of sports fans is going to be more limited because they are spending their sports dollars on college sports before they are spending it on pro sports. This means that you're in direct competition for $$$ not only from the Braves, Thrashers, Hawks & Falcons. You have to beat out the Bulldogs, Yellow Jackets, etc. That's why it's important.
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? I don't know where you learned your geography but there are 10 states in the southeast: Tennessee and Florida being two of them
Re: How important is it to expand to the south east? This sounds awfully familiar By the way, not everyone in the Southeast attended or is a fan of a Southeastern college This is especially so with all the transplants in big cities like Atlanta, where professional sports franchises tend to be located.