If I Had The Money To Bring MLS To STL...

Discussion in 'St. Louis City SC' started by JJCoolbean, Aug 15, 2007.

  1. JJCoolbean

    JJCoolbean New Member

    Jun 16, 2002
    It seems like Collinsville is probably a done deal, but while we wait for the official response I was thinking about my "perfect" MLS situation in the St. Louis area, if I had the sway to make things happen. Basically, the premise here is what I would do if I could influence Jeff Cooper.

    POINTS:

    1) I'm like just like just about everyone here not from Illinois in that I would prefer the stadium be located in Missouri, specifically downtown. To me, the perfect location would be to tear down St. Louis Centre mall and build the stadium there. This location is not only scenic; it features an eclectic and vibrant surrounding environment. This is the center of the recent downtown development. It is right across the street from the convention center and has plenty of surrounding hotels and tourist attractions. It features a Metrolink stop on-site on Washington Avenue and plenty of parking spots. (Metrolink means a non-automobile option is viable.) With all of the people moving into lofts, there will be plenty of people within walking distance of the stadium. Also, the people living in that area are mostly young, diverse, have good jobs, and are well-educated - the perfect group to create a lively game atmosphere. Plus, even as is, there is an outdoor plaza being built right next to Old Post Office that would be great for fan gatherings and the Dubliner and other hangout spots are within blocks. The game could be part of a great night/day out. As for the view, if you remove the St. Louis Center, the surrounding architecture is incredible. This would be the PERFECT location! It would really show off the city and region.

    2) Yes, I know that that location is going to be turned into lofts in the future, but I would have loved for it if Cooper and Pyramid (the new developer) could have partnered as the Cordish Company has teamed with the Cardinals on Ballpark Village mixed-use project. If you include the mall parking lot you would have from Broadway to 7th Street and from Locust to Washington to work with, minus the Stifel-Nicolaus Building. So, the longest part of the stadium could go from Broadway to 7th while using Locust to the Stifel-Nicolaus building width. That leaves 6th, Washington, 7th and the northern side of the stadium for mixed-use development. Since it is right next to the convention center/dome, as well as a Metrolink stop, it could be very valuable property even on non-soccer game days.

    3) "St. Louis Centre has been a dark spot in the otherwise bright downtown development picture. With other properties in the heart of downtown undergoing revitalization, St. Louis Centre is currently the core's biggest problem property," said St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay in a statement last year. I imagine the soccer-friendly Mayor would have had an interest in at least discussing a proposal involving a soccer stadium at that location.

    4) For the loft development, Pyramid has requested $34.3 million in TIF from City of St. Louis for the redevelopment of St. Louis Centre, while $8 million in federal New Markets Tax Credits has already been set aside. Wouldn't that money be nice for the development of the stadium? That's over twice the money that Collinsville is proposing.

    5) Dan McGuire has been working to try and get the Bottleworks development off the ground in an area nearby. I wonder if he would be interested in such a joint venture with Cooper. After all, Cooper has said he would like to bring in more investors, and such a plan would be a lot more attractive to an investor, one would think, at such a choice location over the higher risk and lower reward of Collinsville. Also, at such a choice location, one could charge higher advertising and naming rights simply because more people will see the stadium and it will have a higher profile.

    6) I wouldn't want to leave Collinsville complete out. If I were Cooper, and if I could get the deal done at St. Louis Center, I would consider putting the team's training facility in Collinsville. Yes, I know that the city isn't going to give $20 million for a soccer equivalent of Rams Park. It should be noted, though, that Rams Park does pump money into Earth City. I would think of the training facility development as a means of saving face with the Collinsville officials, while including Cooper's Metro East. If you sell it as Rams Park without the city having to contribute tax money, I don't think they would complain too loudly. Also, even without building a training facility in Collinsville, if Cooper went through and moved his taxable multi-million dollar law practice to Collinsville, I'm sure he could convince the leaders of Collinsville to not bash him in the media for opting out of the deal.

    7) As for the roster, it's pretty obvious where the emphasis should be placed. Area players should be the premium. Taking crappy local guys just because they are local is not the way to go, but there are a lot of good St. Louis players and they need to play for St. Louis.

    8) With the redevelopment of downtown, the region as a whole seems to be enjoying a newfound pride. Continuing the St. Louis theme of the last point, I would LOVE to see that same approach taken with other aspects of the team, specifically with the stadium. Instead of selling the concessions sales to Sportservice where they can sell crappy food and drink for ridiculous prices, I'd love to see individual stands throughout the interior where local breweries such as Schlafly, O'Fallon and Square One can peddle there wares. And how about letting Bob Cassilly or one of the other local artists to work on the interior of the stadium to give it a unique "St. Louis" look instead of the generic norm of cold concrete? This could all contribute to the niche of this MLS team with the city. That is, Cooper's team could be seen as a symbol of St. Louis pride. While the other local teams have out-of-town owners and, mostly, have a corporate feel, Cooper's team could be marketed as local, distinctive, and personal. And isn't pride the best ingredient when trying to create that great soccer crowd "atmosphere"?

    9) Toronto has done a nice job of involving the community with their efforts in drawing in the pub crowd. For St. Louis, I believe it is important to follow the example of the old St. Louis Steamers during their heyday. To do this, I would make an appeal to Catholic schools. The sport of soccer in St. Louis has largely been driven by the Catholic grade schools and high schools, as well as the Catholic Saint Louis University. Most of the top St. Louis players, both amateur and professional, are Catholic and developed their games Catholic schools. So, like the Steamers, I would actively promote the team by sending players out to the various Catholic schools to visit with the kids. No, I am obviously NOT suggesting that the team should only value Catholics. What I am suggesting is that the team try and engage a potential large segment of the population that is likely to respond favorably. Likewise, similar appeals to the Bosnian population of Bevo and the Hispanics of Cherokee street should also be pursued. Some may suggest that appealing to kids will bring out a crowd filled with soccer moms and the like. I disagree, you do see children at international matches and developing them as fans is important in not only making them potential ticket buyers as adult fans, but it helps raise the profile of the game and, hopefully, will lead to more and more players developing into great soccer players.
     
  2. jasontoon

    jasontoon Member

    Jan 9, 2002
    Seattle, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Everything sounds great. I'm totally behind the Collinsville plan, but obviously all this stuff would be ideal: the location, the outreach, etc. Evidently Cooper was thinking along similar lines, but Slay didn't think he could make it work. I wonder if the team, as-is, could salvage bits and pieces of your plans.

    If they don't reach out to the Bosnians and Hispanics, they're nuts. Even the Steamers were starting to garner a Bosnian following, until they signed Lindsay Kennedy and turned themselves into a circus act in the minds of Bosnian fans. (It didn't bother me that much, because I already knew the MISL was half-circus, half-soccer, heh.) No, the immigrant community won't make a huge difference financially, but think of the atmosphere they'd bring. It doesn't take many Bosnian or Mexican fans to make a lot of noise, and it might be contagious for reserved Midwesterners like us.

    And at the very least, MetroLink connectivity should be dealt with. Maybe a fleet of game-day shuttles all decked out in team colors, with fare included in the price of your game ticket. If not, there are going to be a lot of drunk drivers making their way over the PSB after games (even more than usual!).
     
  3. Z010 Union

    Z010 Union Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is the same argument everyone makes about MLS. Here's the reality, at this point it doesn't make sense to buy premium real estate when you can get suburbs or exurbs for 7 times less money. Of course a downtown stadium is ideal, but so is a sprawling stadium and accompanying development that isn't shoehorned in to a city grid.

    The economic reality is that soccer investors are the new breed and are thinking about multi-layered development including practice facilities, retail and hotels, that the existing city environment can't handle or can't be afforded.
     
  4. StarvedPolygamist

    StarvedPolygamist New Member

    Aug 13, 2007
    St. Louis
    Replacing the St. Louis Centre with a stadium is a nice dream, while we're fantacizing. But of course much more expensive and probably unrealistic, space, cost, and approval-wise (higher land price, demo cost, more tax help needed -- which the city probably won't do after all the heat for helping "God's Gift to Creation," the Cardinals -- plus the Cardinals fill 81+ dates a year, the Rams 10+ dates facility is otherwise used for conventions, whereas the soccer stadium probably wouldn't fill non-soccer dates as well).

    Anyway, while I would love that location, I have to tip my hat to Cooper for going well beyond that. He obviously cares about soccer at every level (even pro women's), and developing this kind of "big picture" facility with a youth academy-like setting and training grounds is impressive. Not to mention that it seems carefully planned *not* to screw Collinsville.

    Personally, after years of "polygamy" rooting for various overseas teams and trying to follow MLS teams, I just want a pro team -- in the park next to my house, preferably :) . The fact that he's thought much bigger than that is...well, like I said, hat's off to him.

    Good point about the Bosnian/Latin communities, jasontoon. I hope they buy in even with the stadium on the East Side, as that kind of diverse cultural environment is one of the reasons I love following this sport.
     
  5. SoccerYoda

    SoccerYoda New Member

    Aug 14, 2007
    O'Fallon, MO USA
    I assume MetroLink will have a station and a line going out to this new venue?
     
  6. Nerazzuri

    Nerazzuri New Member

    Jan 23, 2006
    St Louis

    Currently one does not exist, but SLSU's renderings do show a transit station near the main entrance off of Horseshoe Lake Rd.

    If the project gets approved, then at that time, Cooper can make a pitch to Metro to explain why it is beneficial for the community (not just for soccer fans) and why it makes sense to bring the line out there.
     
  7. sirfallsalot_2000

    Apr 18, 2006
    St. Louis, MO
    Club:
    AC St. Louis
    It was mentioned in an article that Cooper went to several cities in the St. Louis area and only Collinsville was receptive. We should be very grateful of Collinsville, otherwise we would seriously have nothing.

    There are no plans that I have seen that links the Metrolink to Collinsville. Although, with success I bet the Metrolink will follow.
     
  8. demunb

    demunb Member

    Feb 23, 2007
    Crystal City, MO
    Club:
    St. Louis Lions
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does anyone really use Metrolink?

    I guess I would if it were more convenient. I'm down South and every once in a while somebody will talk about putting a station in South County or Arnold to take us into the city for the Rams or Cardinals games. It would be great if they would put a South stations in and then I could take it to Collinsville, but I'm kinda doubtful. If you have a station close to your house it would be great, but I'm dissapointed with how few MetroLink stations there are in general. But I digress...
     
  9. StarvedPolygamist

    StarvedPolygamist New Member

    Aug 13, 2007
    St. Louis
    I use it, mostly to get downtown for sporting or day-time events, but I have a stop within 10-minutes' walk from my house. I could see using it for soccer if they had a stop in Collinsville, just to avoid the PSB traffic.

    Problem with light-rail is how expensive the startup is, as you mentioned. At that cost, it's more ideal to build and increase transit capability *before* your area sprawls out into exurbs -- not to connect ($$$) those exurbs once you've already sprawled. Still, with the 40/64 construction, I bet it will see a spike in users.
     
  10. StevenGerrardisGod

    StevenGerrardisGod New Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    St. Louis
     
  11. haugenjp

    haugenjp New Member

    Jun 11, 2007
    I have taken the Metro everyday to work for 6 years.

    Besides the special events, the trains are standing room only for the rush hours.

    I wish it did go to the site.

    Hopefully, the suggestion of a fleet of buses happens.
     
  12. demunb

    demunb Member

    Feb 23, 2007
    Crystal City, MO
    Club:
    St. Louis Lions
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I'm happy to hear that. I wish they'd put a stop farther South for those of us who live in the sticks. :)
     
  13. McGinty

    McGinty Member

    SKC/STL
    Aug 29, 2001
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    There are plans for a south city/south county line. However, don't expect Metro to put stops at a place where people would most like to board the train.
     
  14. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I agree that a downtown location would be ideal. But, it is so obviously ideal that I have to believe Cooper explored those options before thinking Collinsville. I honestly believe that if there was a legit chance to put a stadium downtown, it wold be in the works. So, I'm just happy to have a team anywhere. Biggest issue, besides just the Illinois stigma in general, is no Metro-stop. A stop nearby would go a long way to making it seem more accessible to St. Louis residents.

    Just another funny thing I wanted to note about an Illinois team. There is a strong and growing Mexican population quite close to the proposed site that shouldn't be ignored. In fact, these is a new mostly Mexican futbal league that plays its games not more than 5-10 minutes down just south of Granite City with over a dozen teams. And, the stadium would be pretty much right down the street from Fairmont City, one of the most established Mexican enclaves in the area. And, I'm positive these communities have close ties to the greater St. Louis Mexican-American community. This is a growing local population segment that should be easy pickins for fan support if they aren't forgotten and/or excluded.
     
  15. JJCoolbean

    JJCoolbean New Member

    Jun 16, 2002
    Brian, thanks for the response. However, downtown St. Louis is very different than downtown Philly. Outside of Detroit, I've never been to a downtown as bad as St. Louis. Downtown St. Louis has made amazing strides in the last decade, but it still has a long way to go. There are still empty lots and boarded up buildings throughout downtown St. Louis. How bad is it, still? The city and state offer developers huge tax incentives to even buy a building at below market cost in nearly any other city. For instance, an associate of mine bought a building for about a fifth of the price he would have paid for a comparable building in Chicago AND he received millions in tax credits. The tax credits covered all of his renovation costs. He also was cut a deal by the city for additional tax breaks. That is the only way St. Louis has been able to spur the recent developments downtown. Plus, construction costs in St. Louis are significantly lower than most other cities of a comparable population.

    A group called Downtown Now! recently offered to help pay for the tearing down of St. Louis Center. They were willing to foot the bill to tear down part of the structure all by themselves. I wrote of the excellent location if a soccer-specific stadium and mixed-use development were placed there, but if you have seen the area you will see plenty of still abandoned buildings and empty businesses. Again, while Washington Avenue is beginning to develop, it would only be a footnote in cities like Philadelphia at this point. All of St. Louis' established destination spot neighborhoods, such as Soulard and the Central West End for instance, are outside of downtown.

    I would just be interested in the response of the St. Louis region if the idea of putting a SSS in place of the albatros that is St. Louis Center were made public. That mall is an embarrassment to a lot of people around here, and the SSS would have had a perfect location in a perfect spot. The full Collinsville plan is for about $400 million. I've talked to associates and, as you may have suspected, I do volunteer and put some of my own money in trying to help downtown progress, so I don't believe I'm just playing with Monopoply money here. But there would be an interest in such a development and it would be significantly cheaper than the $400 million. Now we're not talking about 1,600 residental units and two hotels, but I'll be watching closely to see if Collinsville actually supports such a bold development when they have a total population of 25,000 people. That's a LOT of residental for such a small area in this sluggish housing market. Plus, if you were going to move to Collinsville wouldn't it likely be because of a job opportunity nearby? Well, where are the significant well-paying jobs in or near Collinsville that will attract such a significant increase in the population?

    I've spoken informally with some important people here and they each were at least superficially interrested in the idea. Stadiums always lose money, but the mixed-use development in that location, plus the potential for the soccer-specific stadium helping these developers sell lofts to upscale young professionals could prove a success.

    I realize that Collinsville is probably going to pass this deal. That's fine. I just wish Mr. Cooper had come up with a private plan for downtown St. Louis, where this development would work best. If he had, or if he does in the future if the Collinsville deal doesn't go through, put forth a St. Louis Center plan with a mixed-use development, from everyone I have talked to he would almost certainly be able to get tax credits that exceed what Collinsville has offered to pay. The problem for Mr. Cooper when he tried to negotiate with the city in the past, as I understand it, was that he was so vague and given to hyperbole. He wasn't specific about much and he couldn't show how the city would benefit nor properly address the question of risk. That is why the mixed-use development in such a location would be so important. The city was dying to get the Bottle District plan off the ground, but it hasn't come to pass. A mixed-use for the SSS would clinch the deal by showing where significant taxable revenue would come from. Plus, the city is looking for destination attractions and so the SSS would have additional appeal.

    Finally, don't forget that the whole point of the city approving the new Busch Stadium was the Ballpark Village development. As Mayor Slay and others have commented on many times, that is the real appealling development to them.

    If the Collinsville thing fails, maybe I will try and contact Mr. Cooper and see if I can do anything to help. I'm not looking for any money or fame out of this at all, but I would love to see this work. The thought of having a team downtown with an excellent atmospshere and fan support would be reward enough. In particular, a feasibility study would be neccessary.
     
  16. JJCoolbean

    JJCoolbean New Member

    Jun 16, 2002
    Thanks for your comments. While I do agree that their is a noticible Mexican community in parts of the Metro East, I wonder if it is significant enough to really make a real difference. We're talking about very small Illinois towns to begin with. Plus, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but we are talking about run-down communities. Lots of trailer parks and abandoned businesses in these Metro East neighborhoods that we are referring to here. MLS tickets are not cheap and so I wonder if many will be able to afford significant amounts of tickets. Finally, other areas that have seemed to rely on blind support from hispanics have been disappointed. We can probably assume that many of these Mexican-Americans are soccer fans, but will that translate into ticket-buying MLS fans?
     
  17. sirfallsalot_2000

    Apr 18, 2006
    St. Louis, MO
    Club:
    AC St. Louis
    IMO Downtown St. Louis looks better and better every year. It still has a long way to go, but they are certainly revitalizing the city. People are moving back downtown.

    Which serves the Collinsville location in the end. I think we will see (as others have noted) a shift in population back east. St. Louis has probably expanded as far as they will west in Wentzville. The only way to go is to re-establish the downtown and even the Illinois region.

    I think Cooper is prepared to take some losses on the stadium, but the entire project he created should be lucritive.
     
  18. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    I think you have some very valid points, but while the communities are realitively small right now, they are growing rapidly. As in the rest of the country, this is a population explosion in progress. (political debating aside, wheteher this fact makes you smile or cringe, it is happening...look around) And, the populations on opposite sides of the river are linked. I'm talking about using the Illinois communities to also reach out to the Missouri communities. I don't think we need to go overboard nor do I think the Mexican-American population in the area is going to support the team on its own. I just think the proximity and the changing demographics of the area make sense to make sure this group is included as part of the overall scheme.

    Money, of course, is always an issue. But I see guys who shell out cash each week to rent fields and pay refs. They may wash dishes until past midnight and then give up their tip money to pay for a jersey and play the next day. They may not be season ticket holders, but if they had a team they could get excited over, you're talking about a whole lot of people who really love the game and don't give a damn what side of the river the field is on.

    My fear is they try to just sell this thing to the soccer mom, youth soccer contingent and I am personally skeptical about that being the type of crowd that could sustain a team....and more skeptical about getting that particular crowd to cross over from the Missouri side to support things. I may be way off base, but it seems to me that more recent immigrants, be they Mexican, Bosnian or from wherever, would be less likely to be concerned with historical taboos like crossing the river and are also some of the most fervent fans of the sport.

    There is no single group that is going to keep this thing afloat once it gets going. We're gonna need everyone on board to make it a success. All I'm really saying is that it would be foolish to ignore any population groups, in particular one that shows a strong affinity for the game, that is growing by leaps and bounds all across the country with St. Louis no exception, and that despite some disappointments still makes up a significant portion of MLS fans.
     
  19. Marchetti

    Marchetti Member

    Sep 23, 2004
    Chicago->STL->Denver
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    The most interesting thing about new MLS stadiums being built in the suburbs is that most fans really have no problem with it. Carson is close to LA (in the grand scheme of LA County), and Bridgeview is really only 10 minutes from downtown Chicago. Frisco is a bit outside of Dallas, but they seem to be doing well, as it seems Frisco is one of the nicer suburbs of Dallas, unlike Bridgeview to Chicago, or Carson to LA.

    Regarding the Saint Louis franchise, though... Collinsville is a GREAT community only within a 10 minute drive from the Arch, and located between two MAJOR highways... yet it's on the other side of the river, and it seems to automatically polarize the team's future fanbase. Patriots or Revolution fans never seem to care much about the fact that their teams stadium is almost an hour's drive outside Boston. And New York football fans still drive over to New Jersey to watch their teams play, even if they do think of NJ just like St. Louisians think of Illinois.

    I just don't get it. If you wanna go watch MLS soccer in St. Louis, then go to Collinsville. There is nothing wrong with the neighborhood, and considering MLS' buisness model (not Cooper's) it's a perfect fit to place a franchise there.

    Not every franchise can be as lucky as Columbus or Toronto, and build their facility downtown, but if you're declining to support MLS soccer in St. Louis simply because the team plays outside the city, then some real issues need to be overcome.
     
  20. PopsKrock

    PopsKrock New Member

    Jul 18, 2007
    Belleville
    Club:
    AC St. Louis
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What are you talking about? You talk about the Metro East like the whole area is E.StL or State Park.
     
  21. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Have you ever actually stepped foot in Collinsville?
     
  22. Tkebh979

    Tkebh979 New Member

    Aug 2, 2007
    Houston-ish
    Well, to be honest, my experience on the east side is limited to views from 255 south of the 270 intersection and the occasional trip to Collinsville to visit a friend who's family is up there. I don't know if I can whole-heartedly agree with the trailer park image, but my memory of Collinsville is that of a relatively older area with some run-down places akin to some parts of South St. Louis City. As for the highway, well, there's just not much out there at all save farmland and bluffs, correct?

    Of course, I'm removing outliers from my experiences, such as taking the wrong turn off of 55-70 and ending up in the scariest, broken-down neighborhood I've ever been in. Aside from a few, decent, mini-mall developments off the highway, I don't know this utopian Metro East some of you allude to.

    Please enlighten me if I am wrong. I don't want to generalize an entire area based on my experiences. I just don't see how suggestions of high rates of growth in the Metro East imply a burgeoning, well-supported community. I would imagine that it is much easier to claim a larger growth rate if the original level of development was lower to begin with.
     
  23. PopsKrock

    PopsKrock New Member

    Jul 18, 2007
    Belleville
    Club:
    AC St. Louis
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think people are getting Collinsville mixed up with State Park or Caseyville. Both of those areas are less than nice, but I wouldn't say they were terrible. Collinsville is growing, especially along 157 where an entire new business district has been built. Main Street is pretty nice, even if it could benefit from a few more restaurants. If anyone was interested I am more than happy to show some other fans around the city before the Sept. 10th meeting.
     
  24. sirfallsalot_2000

    Apr 18, 2006
    St. Louis, MO
    Club:
    AC St. Louis
    My best thought of Colllinville is expanding. The new shopping center with that Walmart was pretty nice. I also enjoyed the older downtown area. It was a functioning downtown.....unlike some town's that have rundown center of town's.

    I think Collinville is up to the challenge. It's not like this is the first expansion in 20 years for them.
     
  25. Seph

    Seph Member

    Dec 2, 2004
    St. Louis, Mo., USA
    Club:
    St. Louis Lions
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Besides, the growth that Collinsville will experience from the stadium will have nothing to do with the East St. Louis/Sauget part of the East Side.

    That growth will come from middle class people who are buying houses in Illinois anyway and are saying "Where should I look? Belleville? Fairview? Edwardsville? Oh yeah, there are 1,000 new homes right next to the stadium in Collinsville."

    That's why this deal makes so much sense for the Collinsville City Council. It gives them an edge over surrounding communities.
     

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