Israel

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by angus_hooligan, May 22, 2003.

  1. angus_hooligan

    angus_hooligan New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Chicago
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    His view is very relevant as he is a Government official of a country that was founded to prevent genocide from happening to his people again.

    Very hypocritical of those people don't you think?
     
  2. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Do you have any idea how small Israel is?? It's about the size of New Jersey (altho I think Joisey has a bigger Jewish population ;)). They have a very strong military, perhaps even the strongest in the world in proportion to the size of their country, but they do not have the sheer numbers that the Arab countries would have at their disposal if they decided to gang up on Israel again. That is why they need a buffer zone in the West Bank and that is why they need nuclear weapons.
     
  3. -cman-

    -cman- New Member

    Apr 2, 2001
    Clinton, Iowa
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Riddle me this Batman... It they have nukes, why do they need a buffer zone to keep the Arabs from ganging up on them?

    The nukes will save them from Syria et. al. but please explain how the continued opression of the inhabitants of the "buffer zone" enhances the security of Israel. As far as I can tell, it has had the opposite effect.
     
  4. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    It can be difficult to comprehend the danger of complete annhiliation that Israel has endured since its inception. America has scarcely experienced a direct threat to its citizens' security, whereas Israel, from the moment of its founding, has been under attack or threat of attack from its neighbors. Make no mistake, Israel's enemies have one and only one goal: to completely destroy Israel. The nation has never enjoyed a true moment of peace and security.

    Settlers in the occupied territories may be pretty fanatical people, but their only interest is preserving Israel's security. Disagree with their tactics if you will. They may be doing more harm than good. But if manifest destiny, or liebestraum, or genocide were Israel's goal - then there would be no Hamas, no Palestinian Authority, no "occupied territories"... To the settlers, it's a matter of survival, not hatred or ethnic superiority.
     
  5. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Because nuking Baghdad or Teheran is one thing, but they're not going to nuke countries that are right next door to them, so they need another guarantor of security.
     
  6. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel


    He's the fucking Tourist Minister!
    Not in least since they all believe they are preventing another genocide. Even Abba Eban called the 67 borders "Auschwitz borders"
     
  7. -cman-

    -cman- New Member

    Apr 2, 2001
    Clinton, Iowa
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Hooey. If Israel were in danger of loosing a land war a'la '73 the extra few thousand yards of territory isn't going to make any real tactical difference. The Golan Heights are another matter altogether. But Jerusalem and the West Bank settlements-as-military-buffer argument doesn't hold water. The settler's there aren't there as freakin' security forces, they are (mostly) hard-core, right-wingers living out Israel's manifest destiny myth.

    The nukes (100+ of them) continue to guarantee Israel's continued existence. dfb's comment about Israel being worried about radiation from nuking Syria in a "backs against the sea" scenario is incorrect. Nuclear deterrence is all about Mutually Assured Destruction people. Have we forgotten the '70's and '80's already -- those of us who weren't in diapers that is? That part of Israeli military doctrine has been the worst-kept secret in the world for two and-a-half decades.

    I don't have any answers in this issue. But I can at least tell truth from nationalist myth.
     
  8. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Right. So Israelis are supposed to sit back in comfort and security, knowing that, since their nukes will protect them against invasion, the vulnerability of the pre-67 borders has been completely compensated for. Although their enemies rhetoric hasn't changed for 50 years, suddenly they feel safe and sound. They might as well give back every inch of land, pull out their forces and give Hamas some room to breathe.

    Amazingly enough, though, some of them still feel threatened. Now where would they get the outlandish idea that their personal safety and national security aren't 100% guaranteed?
     
  9. angus_hooligan

    angus_hooligan New Member

    May 15, 2001
    Chicago
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    He's a government official!!! Any statement made by a government official is a statement of the government.
     
  10. domingo

    domingo Member

    Jun 26, 2002
    Hanover
    Club:
    FC Hansa Rostock
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Read my post and to what it revers to.
    I never said that there is ethnic cleansing in Israel!
     
  11. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Wait a minute... does that mean that our official government position is that Bush is a liar? I'm pretty sure one government official or another has said that.
     
  12. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    That's utterly absurd. His positions contradict the Israeli government. I'm afraid you have no understanding of how Israeli parliamentary democracy works.

    Again, he's the Tourist Minister.
     
  13. benito gattopardo

    benito gattopardo New Member

    Mar 7, 2003
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel


    Is there some kind of double standard on this forum for profanity? Would that kind of be like the double standard that favors Zionism over other irridentist movements?
     
  14. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Re: Re: Re: Israel

    I'm happy you agree on this subject.

    I usually didn't post this kind of messages because they are useless.
    But since you seem to need it... :)

    p.s. that one is another mussolini's BS.
    The only hope against amoral plutocracy is a real balanced democracy with freedom of speech etc.
    What is "moral" and what it is not is most of the times subjective.
    I don't know if you thought you'd made me happy with that quote about communism.
    We already have here Berlusconi accusing any leftist or opponent to be communist.
    If I was communist I would declare it without any problem.
    There are 2 communist parties left in italy, perfectly legal, they collect something like 7-8% in the elections.
    I know you know it.
    Liberal is a correct "american" definition for my political views.
    In europe socialdemocrat (sweden-like) is the right term.
     
  15. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    LOL. You're just too much. Do I have to provide yet another link to the ancient maps page?
     
  16. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    You're right this is not the position of israeli government and hopefully it is not the position of the majority of the israeli pubblic opinion

    Anyway Elon is the tourism minister then he is part of the government.

    He is there because sharon had to repay his right wing party for its support.

    Barnash_aviv kindly answered me this in the thread about this minister.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47467

     
  17. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    [​IMG]
     
  18. benito gattopardo

    benito gattopardo New Member

    Mar 7, 2003
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Actually, I haven't seen your ancient maps, but if these ancient maps somehow "demonstrate" the Jewish "right" to "redeem" the lands in question, then they are being proferred in support of irridentism.

    Do you know what irridentism means?

    Have you studied Latin or any Romance language?
     
  19. benito gattopardo

    benito gattopardo New Member

    Mar 7, 2003
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel


    Grazie, Sardinia, for fulfilling my need. (LOL.)

    I thought your were a PDS member or sympathizer.
    You and I both know that the PDS is the successor to the Italian Communist Party. Socialdemocrats?
    That's like saying that followers of Alleanza Nazionale (the successor to the Italian Fascist Party) are American-style Republicans.
     
  20. benito gattopardo

    benito gattopardo New Member

    Mar 7, 2003
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel


    Bravo! (LOL)
     
  21. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Now I vote DS (it's no more PDS) when they were PCI I didn't vote'em.

    I've never been a member of any party.
    Maybe I'm a member of my party but since I don't compete in elections i decide which party to vote when it's time to.

    Anyway...

    Are you talking about that DS (democratici di sinistra = leftist democrats) party that about 15 years ago officially declared that communism was a total failure abandoning any tie with that ideology and so determining the birth of RC (rifondazione comunista) party by those ones who didn't accept that statement?

    The same party who was the bigger party in the coalition that lead to the extraordinary successful Prodi's government (economy)?

    The same party who, with D'Alema (DS) as PM, agreed on NATO intervention in kosovo and bosnia?

    Now the political developments after "mani pulite" is a long story to tell... this is not the right thread to start it.

    Basically the old ruling giant centre party DC (christian democracy) collapsed splitting in two.
    The left side (those that berlusconi's fans lovely call catho-communists) forms now the "L'ulivo" coalition with DS, green party and other little parties.
    Prodi is one of those so called cathocommies, of course he's never been a commie but berlusconists reason this way (and maybe you also).

    The right side made a contract with the devil (that's why he owns milan), the xenophobes of "Lega" party and AN (the ex MSI who was the nostalgic party you talked about). :p

    btw AN denies any relation with fascism.
     
  22. RoverMax

    RoverMax Member

    May 4, 2003
    NYC
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow, talk about intolerant. The world would be better without intolerant people like yourself.
     
  23. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    Sardinia, let's not debate this for the nth time, but whatever you think of the Palestinians, you can't argue that Israelis have no connection with the land. The European colonialist mentality doesn't apply here. Only in a bizarro world would someone say Israel stole Jerusalem.
     
  24. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    And you can't argue palestinians have no connection with the land.

    Even if you deny that also palestinians descend from ancient inhabitants of old palestine (which is sci-fi history) only in a bizzarro world would someone say that palestinians can't claim anything regarding Jerusalem and palestine after 1500 years.

    Maybe the european colonialist mentality doesn't apply but surely zionist colonialist mentality or better zealote fundamentalist mentality does.

    btw YES, let's not debate. :eek:
     
  25. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Israel

    The future palestinian state is smaller.

    Only 20% of the land they possessed before the birth of Israel.
     

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