Foreign imports harming English game - Venables

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by benni..., Feb 16, 2007.

  1. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

    Jun 1, 2005
    Spanish rules are extremely lenient though. EU includes almost the entire Europe, so essentially only African/American players have to cope with it. Also, the likes of Roberto Carlos, Emerson, Ronaldo, etc. - I don't think they count against quota, since they played in Europe for a long time they are considered to be "EU citizens".
     
  2. appoo

    appoo Member+

    Jul 30, 2001
    USA
    true enough but there's a theory that the biggest clubs only take the best players.

    Anyway.

    % English players in Big 4 - 28.83%
    % Spanish players in Big 4 (Real Madrid, Barca, Valencia, Super Depor) - 55.88%
    % Italian players in Big 4 (AC Milan, Inter Milan, Juve (yea yea their team is still loaded), Lazio) - 49.5%

    Clearly, there is a significant difference there. It certainly looks like the big Spanish and Italian clubs put more effort into Spanish and Italian players, respectively.
     
  3. Realwood

    Realwood Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    FC Dallas, Tucson
    Maybe the FA should look within. They bought a ton of land and planned on making their own version of France's famed Clairefontaine Academy.

    Last I heard they abandoned that plan and are now selling off the land. Nice job. But yeah, blame Arsenal for not doing it for you...:rolleyes:
     
  4. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    Why do you want a british team to have mostly british players?
     
  5. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    Johno, what makes you saay that the teams are misusing them? I dont think I've seen evidence of that. All the reserve games I've watched , most times teams played a 442. I've never really seen anti football at lower age levels.
     
  6. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I don't think anyone can disagree with Venables, because what he's saying holds much truth in it. I think johno hit the nail on the head in the previous page. It's not so much that there isn't much british talent, a lot of teams are misusing them.

    There's also the dilemna of a good youth player coming up but not getting enough playing or "proving" time because of issues like team safety or foreign players getting playing time. (We've seen this at several clubs including our own before) And that' s pretty much how potentially good youth is wasted. They're thrown around, loaned between teams, from The Premier League to the Colaship and so forth - without any substantial results, eventually they never make their way back to the team that raised them.

    In order to hel address this problem, limiting the amount of foreign players a club can have is inevitable.
     
  7. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

    Jun 1, 2005
    Not just British, ideally I'd want it everywhere, but it'll never work. Certain tradition, certain "style", giving all kinds of chances to local youngsters, etc.
     
  8. Vermont Red

    Vermont Red Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even if Venables is right, and I think he is, I still can't get too worked up. England gets the team it deserves and the Prem is still excellent.

    Club>Country
     
  9. bigdush

    bigdush New Member

    Jul 22, 2003
    Parker, CO
    Even if there is something truthful about what Venables is saying, does that remove the fact that the top 23 players that get selected to the national team aren't capable of winning it all?

    In other words, the academy system might be hurting, but that doesn't mean that the english national team suddenly doesn't have a good enough talent pool that, with the appropriate coaching, could win a world cup or european championship.
     
  10. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do you mean English rather than British? Otherwise, having a Prem team (which I guess is what you mean when you say a British team) made up of mostly "British" players may not necessarily help the English national team.
     
  11. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

    Jun 1, 2005
    No, I do mean British, since a lot of youngsters from Ireland, Wales, etc. are products of youth Premiership clubs and were brought up in similar environments with English players. It's not just about the NT.
     
  12. Achtung

    Achtung Member

    Jul 19, 2002
    Chicago
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    England and the FA have long since made their deal with the devil. They could have the most exciting, fast-paced, and popular league in the world, and all it would cost them would be the time and patience required to nurture and develop players from a young age. Why wait until tomorrow to create a great player when free-flowing Sky money can get one today? The growth of technology and disposable income has allowed even lower division teams to scout far and wide, all in the quest for the almighty pound. When you're talking about a place in the CL costing millions of pounds a season, money you've already banked upon, who has the time for kids? They can blame the Arsenals and the Liverpools all they want, but the fact is that those teams are just doing what it takes to remain a big club these days. Their managers and scouts have a commitment to their respective clubs, not to the Three Lions.

    If England wants to rise to the top of the international game, they'll have to have a hand in developing players themselves. The clubs will never have an obligation in the least to do so. It's long been known that "United > England"; it should similarly be obvious that we're not the only club that feels that way. If France has Clairefontaine and even the US has Bradenton, its time for England to get the ball rolling themselves.
     
  13. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    Good post!
     
  14. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You seem to be addressing a different issue then. Because for Venables....it is about the national team....unless I misunderstood his comments. And developing great Irish, Welsh or Scottish players does nothing for the English national team.
     
  15. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

    Jun 1, 2005
    Right, and that's why I said - I partly agree with Venables and for a different reason.
     
  16. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Okay. But you said......

    Did you mean you partly agree because while he's focusing on English talent, your focus on talent within the entire UK encompasses his concern? Because obviously Venables is only concerned with clubs looking for young talent inside England....not the entire UK.
     
  17. Stud83

    Stud83 Member+

    Jun 1, 2005
    Well, my thinking is not really limited to NT. Since Irish, Welsh, etc. players often are fundamental part of history of many clubs, and none of the other UK leagues are even remotely close to the level of Premiership, I think the rules should be the same for all UK players, and the limit should only be applied to foreigners. It would really be helpful to all NTs - not only English players would still be getting plenty of chances, but also other players, which would help Ireland, Scotland, etc.
     
  18. The Guv'nor

    The Guv'nor Member

    Mar 24, 2006
    The important thing for me is shifting the emphasis onto the quality of football, players techniques etc.
     
  19. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, benni, seeing your opinions on the acceptability of diving, I don't expect you to get this one either.

    By the way, I read this in the Washington Post in a NASCAR article of all places...

     
  20. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    What does my opinion on diving have to do with this?

    How does that article in the post affect me neccessarily? Thats a whole other topic on its own.

    In regards to the English national team, yes the foriegners are hurting their chances. But its more like they want spots handed to their young talent, instead of their young talent to work for it. If the young English prospect was better than the young Spanish or French prospect, then he'd play.

    I just felt that, while Venables was telling the truth, he's making sound as if its the foreigners fault completely. That amongst other issues.
     
  21. Rei de Boston

    Rei de Boston New Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    I agree about the competition being good for players and their development but it is not always young player versus young player. Often the young player is in competition against an established older player that was purchased to fill a need. It is always going to be extremely difficult for the younger player to get games. Look at our squad for an example of that.
     
  22. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    True. Cant argue with that.

    My original question was why do you want English teams to play with all or mostly english players? Why does it matter where someone comes from?
     
  23. saosebastiao

    saosebastiao New Member

    May 22, 2005
    I didn't know O'Shea was a foreigner. :confused:



    Seriously...I think the issue boils down to competition. You play with the best when you want to be the best. There are plenty of spots for English youth in the reserves, colaship, and the lower half of the prem. Enforcing an foreigner limit would only dilute the top 4.
     
  24. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    It would also help if Englishmen went to other leagues to learn their trade. We see 16 and 17 year old Spaniards, Italians, Frenchmen etc coming to England (one minor reason being the money). There should be some young English players going to Spain, France, Germanjy etc.

    That would help the young English talent. I know Aaron Hunt is a u21 German international, but he's English, and learned his trade in Germany. Now he gets substantial minutes at Bremen.
     
  25. SirManchester

    SirManchester Member+

    Apr 14, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Well, first of all, History tells us that the English League is rather unique when you consider every other league in Europe. It's perhaps the most balanced league. It doesn't have any relative weaknesses nor is it known for one particular strength like La Liga is known for their attacking football and Seria A for their defending. It's a fast paced league that requires its players to be extremely physical.

    When you consider this, it's also more evident that British players are more easily adaptive to the league than continental players. An Italian or Spaniard is always going to have a harder time fitting in than a Welshman or a Scotsman. There are always exceptions, that much we've seen as well, but it's less riskier to invest on homegrown players than to take risks on imports. Also, when you look at successfull English teams, there's no denying that having a British core has been benefitial, that was even the case with us not too long ago.
     

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