From soccernet.com... http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=408881&cc=5901 Not 100% United related, but I felt its discussion worthy. What Venables is saying has some truth, but then as we all know, the price of English players are sky high, and unwarranted. My issue with people like Venables making this complaint, and others saying that there should be a limit on foreigners is that, it wont be helping the young English players as it would effectively be handing the young English players a spot, instead of having them work for it. I believe, no matter what country you are from, if you are good enough you will play. What is your opinion on the issue.
I agree with Fergie, the academy system forces teams to look outside England. Ideally, it should be a free for all for English teams to sign English talent. As it stands today, David Beckham could never have signed for United as a schoolboy.
Fergie's quote. http://home.skysports.com/list.aspx?hlid=448707&CPID=8&clid=1&lid=2&title=Fergie+blasts+'failing'+academies&channel=football_home&
I don't know - does Arsen Wenger have trily THAT much of a problem of finding kids in one of the biggest cities in the world? What I find interesting is that fans even put up with this. football clubs started as local men playing the game for fun after work, I mean I think Manchester United was founded by a bunch of rail workers. Fans would look down on the field, and they'd be cheering on their friends and neighbors whom they grew up with. Now? How is Arsenal at all representative of London? There no Londoners on the side.
That's like an emo bitching about pain when he's cutting his own wrists. The English FA have only themselves to blame for their failing academy system and national team.
a lot, but how many bigger than Arsenal? Anyway - I'm not saying ALL the players should come from your local area. But at least make an effort at developing local talent. I now wonder how many young Londoners look at an offer from West Ham and Arsenal, and pick West Ham because they know they haven't a shot in hell of breaking through Arsenal because they know they'll just buy some kid from Spain.
I agree that foreign imports aren't great for the academy system. However, I think good English talent must be better used by the teams. Talent is so rarely realised because teams don't pay attention to youth. Of the clubs that do pay attention to their academies one can find several promising young players. Boro have unearthed Downing and Morrison in recent times. United have a couple promising young players and West Ham and Tottenham have some very bright prospects. The problem is not so much the foreign talent being better than the English players, but rather too many English teams either misusing (by playing anti football in the lower levels) the talent, improper planning (United playing 442 through the ranks and having a system for bringing through youths) and essentially not spending enough money on their youth system. Southhampton are a good example of a team that would become a top club for developing English players. They are interested in young players but they do a lot of scouting and develop a good deal of young players but they don't necessarily focus on English only talent because of the academy rules that don't allow them to recruit from more than an hour away. They aren't the best team in the world but they find projects and stick with them. If they have the chance to develop young English players they will, but they certainly won't limit themselves to that. They have a couple international players who they've brought through the ranks like Kenwyne Jones (T&T) and they currently have on trial Mathew Bartholomew and Aaron Dowing also of T&T. Every club will do this - its the sensible thing to do.
I'm not very familiar with Venables coaching exploits. Is he a coach known for his ability to win silverware? Has he won much?
I think in addition to what has already been brought up you have to look at the how the influx of big money has effected things. The first is the amount of debt at Manchester. That is not an easy thing to deal with. Regardless of your opinion of the Glazers, we can all agree that in order to service the debt the club needs to stay successful. That applies some pressure to the management to find the best players. This only exacerbates the hours limitation rule that Fergie is complaining about. You have to look outside the country. There is no other choice as the small clubs just do not produce sufficiently developed young players. It would be nice if the smaller clubs could develop a kid to a point they could sell to a bigger club, but that isn't the reality. Most small clubs are not as good at developing talent as the big clubs. Additionally, money changes the expectations of the fans. Look at Aston Villa for an example. What is the first thing that all the fans were thinking when Lerner bought the club? "Great now we have money to be a player in the transfer market." Fans don't sit back and say great now we have money to invest in building a really great training facility and youth set up. We on this board are victims of this type of thinking as well. Just look at the length of the transfer threads, the debates about having money for transfers, etc.
You know what, I agree with Venables to a certain extent. And the best part is, I still don't care! The foreigners bring an extra pizazz and skill to the league that domestic players barring Rooney, Gerrard, and J. Cole, seem to lack at the moment. No one, and I mean not a single soul in the world, could ever convince me that English football would have been better off never having seen the likes of Ginola, Zola, Klinsmann, Ronaldo, Henry, etc. Therein lies the failing of the Academy system, kids aren't being coached properly. It's like the US youth system almost in that the kids are being coached to win youth trophies and to be tactically disciplined much moreso than technically skilled. Tactics can be taught for a player's entire career in my opinion. Technique and skills like passing, dribbling, first touch, etc. can't be past a certain age and they are far more rapidly learned at a younger age when a young player is far more malleable. I think England has one beacon of hope though: the advent of the Brazilian Soccer Schools. Their most notable graduate is Micah Richards. If that school can pump out more Richards-like players, then England will be absolutely fine in the long run. But for now, English youth football is in a world of hurt for sure.
What is this? Football schools in England that are managed by brazilians? Never heard of it. And what are these academy rules? Could someone get me informed here?
I partly agree with Venables - clubs should be encouraged to look for young talent inside UK rather than out. The thing is though - it should be universal across all leagues, which is obviously impossible, given that all the countries have different labor laws among other things. That's also why implementation of a salary cap is essentially impossible (at least in a way similar to North American leagues). But if it was somehow possible, ideally I would want a limit of, say, 7 foreigners for every game. So that a British team would have mostly British players, Spanish team would have mostly Spaniards, etc. Enforcing a rule in 1 league though would make it weaker and shouldn't be done.
It hasn't hurt spain and they've had rules like that for some time. No more than 4 non-eu players in the squad and I don't think you can have more than 3 on the pitch. I realize that's a bit less rigid but its a start. I definitely think benches need to be expanded to help the development of young players. You can't put Rossi on the bench if you only have room for 1 forward and you've got Saha, Larsson and Rooney in your team.
ok, I took the top 4 clubs in the English game - Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, and Liverpool, and broke their numbered roster down by English or Not English, and English National Team or Not. The results are as follows Total Pool 111 Players 28.83% English 14.41% ENT Arsenal 29 Players 17.24% Enlish 0% ENT (I'm not including Walcott) Liverpool 31 Players 38.71% English 9.68% ENT Chelsea 27 Players 22.22% English 22.22% ENT Man Utd 24 Players 37.5% English 25% ENT
Help me out here, how does this help us? I'm not being an ass - I just want to know how to apply this.
who is "us"? The Manchester United supporters? The Manchester United Football Club? The country that to which the football club owes alliegance? I'm not gonna say one way or another, because I don't know the correct answer, but there are a lot of different loyalties at play here. For example, does an English club owe it to it's country to look after the local players? Or is the English club first and foremost, a football and its loyalties goto the supports and win a championship no matter what? Even if it means sacrificing the local players for better foreign players? or are there even more loyalties at play here?
LOL, no US as is in those of us trying to wrap our mind around the lack of lack of English talent being raised.
the Data? it gives us an idea of what the big clubs (presumably the clubs that provide the national team players) are doing for England. Just thinking off hand...it might be interesting to compare with Spain, Italy, and France. All of whom have better national teams than England (please don't flame).
I agree with Italy and France but not Spain - they're perenial underachievers just like England. I'm also not certain, and I began to post that before asking you to clarify, that the big 4 should be supplying the majority of players for the ENT. I also don't think they do - Arsenal and Liverpool are French/Spanish.
There are many things wrong there: Let me start: 1 - It's not called "Futebol de Salão" anymore. FIFA changed it to Futsal. 2 - It's not a game for children only. I'm 22 and I play it 2 times a week. There are professional leagues all around the world, and the best are in Brazil and Spain (full of brazilians ). Most americans think that "soccer" is a sport for kids. Don't make the same mistake about Futsal. 3 - "Heading is not permitted." It is, but it's hard to score from headers. What can be learned from Futsal: quick passing, dribbling, quick thinking, controlling the ball quickly. And the most important: every player must attack and defend. When you have a team of 5 guys, nobody can just stand waiting for a ball or just sit in front of the goalie. It's a popular game in Brazil because it can be played in cheap courts and it only requires 10 to play (sometimes 8, if the court is small). So, are these schools popular all over Great Britain? A video of Falcão, the world's greatest futsal player: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5E34XzxrAM A video of the NT, with a great song also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGToeh21LZM&mode=related&search=