"But he played for Blah-blah FC's Reserves"

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Vicious Lhasa Apso, Nov 17, 2006.

  1. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    1860 reserves were in Oberliga then (4th level). Not many make a jump up from there.
     
  2. ugaaccountant

    ugaaccountant New Member

    Oct 26, 2003
    The man is to be respected but stop trying to act like what he says is absolute. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread other premier coaches think otherwise.

    Spector toiled in the same ManU reserve setup and succeeded. He is now a bonafide starter in the EPL. So stop acting like you can't spend a decent amount of time in the reserves and make it. Spector did it and Rossi's in the slow process of making it. That's 2 of the 3 young americans that recently played for ManU's reserve team. And then you have Tim Howard who spent quite a bit of time in their reserves as well and look how he's doing now.

    Apologies to those who think Demerit has game, I simply do not see it. He got lit up against Chelsea in a way Spector did not. If you can make a case that he's good based on a team of the week, can't I make a case that his game has holes based on a bad week? That's why I see little future for him.
     
  3. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    To which I'd retort, first team play at any decent level will almost always be better than the reserves, which are of debatable development and opportunity value, and you'd be better off seeing the field routinely for a lesser side than adding Man U reserves play to a history of hype that you were just starting to convert to actual quality. Go to Reading, and if you succeed there you may eventually suit up for Man U's first team. [Or go to Man U now and risk being the next Cooper/Donovan, big name on the resume but back in America for the paycheck and first team PT. Nothing more deflating for the Adu hype machine than if he ever had to come back here.]

    Let's be honest: is there any less pressure, and probably more, to prove oneself at Reading first team than merely being in the Man U system? No pressure at Man U? Giggle. Nurture? Kind of, but then they toss you on the refuse heap if you're not the rare success story, and all the while you are being undercut by the mature Sahas and such who are being brought in to fill first team spots (which you can only dream of). You're in a situation where you have to beat out big name transfers and long term team members/academicians for roster spots. You might very well end up like Cooper, who showed plenty but found no room for his decent abilities, ended up back here. Or, worse, you become a permanent nothing like Conor Casey, all potential, no production.

    The Cooper "correction" is a factual distinction without a difference. One assumes he was released because, when Cooper asked if he'd ever actually play for them, they could give no guarantee. Who cut who is almost beside the point.

    Smith is in sufficient injury flux where all options should be on the table. People are acting like a guy with a major leg break is the same guy he was back before the play he was hurt on. If he was, we would not even be having this discussion. He'd be suiting up for the next first team game. That Fergie mentioned the reserves was not just a waste of breath but was clearly a statement that, whatever y'all think of Smith's ability and experience, if Smith is going to make certain decisions about where he wants to go, yes here but no there, we might have to consider the reserves which (hint hint) suck.
     
  4. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    But development is designed to polish/improve many things on a player. If the only factor was "physical play", then perhaps a starting gig somewhere would be preferred.

    But other variables - vision, speed of decision making, touch, shooting, etc. - are best taught without worrying about match outcomes. And a big club could conceivably offer both the support structure and the time for a player to achieve his best.
     
  5. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    Just because others disagree with you does not mean you can't be absolutely right. 2+2=4 is not any less right because someone who failed elementary math opines that it is instead 5. Just a philosophical point.

    [I might accept some people's points voiced here, but, all fairness, few of us think we are 100% right. I don't see where you got absolute from. I merely tend to support Fergie's comments as more accurate.]

    DeMerit has played twice as many games for his team (which is struggling just like West Ham) as has Spector. 12 to 6. And calling someone who starts half their team's games a "starter" is questionable. He's clearly in the rotation, but I tend to reserve "starter" for people who are irreplaceable each week. Donovan with LA, for instance.

    Mentioning Howard as a "reserve" is misleading; it's like calling Lewis one. Howard was rapidly given his shot and started for a while, he then slid back down into pine time after some dubious on-field efforts. It's also worth noting that the quality of American GKs makes them something of an exception from the traditional career arc of American players. They are in higher demand and are given more chances.

    Rossi is not an American other than in the narrowest sense. He has also played merely half his squad's games, without a goal or assist. Lest we forget, he is now with relgation possibility Newcastle, not Man U, and this could be seen as yet another example of the backsliding that a significant percentage of Man U peripherals end up doing when they actually pursue first team ball. Which proves rather than disproves the "avoid Man U reserves" thesis.
     
  6. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    A big club is probably more inclined to fill their reserve team with youth prospects partly because they have more youth prospects, and the reserve league will be a step up from the youth team.

    One problem with reserve football is that it can be a bit too comfortable. The bigger clubs often pay reserve players, ones who may only get the odd Coca Cola cup appearance away to Scunthorpe United, more than they'd make in the championship. This makes players stay on perhaps longer than they ought to. Any player not in the first team squad by the age or 20 used to be looking to move on not so long ago. Now they'll stay longer and it harms players' development. There are things that you'll learn from playing proper matches that you won't from reserve football.
     
  7. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    Your thesis assumes that the coaches are good at development, which is questionable. It's like college sports. Do teams win because they recruit or because they coach well? A lot of teams one senses ebb and flow with recruitment (think Miami in football). My college soccer coach was an awful teacher. But I was always a "gamer" who loved games and hated practices anyway. For people like me who rise to the occasions in which they are placed, and do that best in pressure situations, it matters more who you play against than whom you practice with. I improved in spite of my coach, not because of him.

    Does Chelsea win because they develop? No, they win because they sign. I think Terry is one of their few home-growns. If you go to Chelsea expecting to be taught, you might be in for a rude awakening.

    You might have a point, but it could also be situation specific, and the assumption that because a team is good means it can teach might not be the case. I always thought my college team would have been better if the coach was a better teacher, rather than merely a recruiter and motivator. He did no better than the players he brought in; the team was as good as the recruiting.

    And, although one does need their skill work, we can do that on our own, and I don't think practice is anything close to what one sees on the field. One has to be able to translate the broken-apart skills of practice to integrated games, and the only way to do that is play the best possible competition and play often. For all the kid-encouraging talk about how seriously we need to take practice, a lot of people turn it up a notch when the money is on the table in games, and that can't be simulated in practice.
     
  8. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    My thesis is that a quality team knows what and how to coach at least the basic fundamental Euro quality soccer. Some may allow a genius to flourish more than others but most big clubs see that in a prospect and a prospect can surely scout the club as well.
     
  9. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Look, there's an easy answer to this debate. Go to the internet. Go to The Google. Google the Google to find Manchester United Reserve Players. Then Google the Google to find those players current playing history. Then compare and contrast. Did they find Good Soccer Jobs or did they end up in China (without The Google) drinking and smoking and playing. Did more end up in Dubai or EPL?

    Once you've done that, let's chat some more!
     
  10. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    A lot of this information is already flowing through the debate, eg, Spector's 6 apps in 12 or so games, ditto Rossi, Cooper back in the USA. I doubt there are many more Americans with Man U reserve histories. It might not be comprehensive, but it's there. While a call to rationalism may be laudable, demanding that everyone go and inform themselves about years' worth of Man U reservists "just because" is not necessary. If you have a point to make and want to make the effort, fine, but a requirement of omniscience is basically an effort to kill the debate.
     
  11. bigjoe

    bigjoe Red Card

    Nov 10, 2006
    But you somehow mention Spector and Rossi (and even Cooper to an extent) as players who prove your thesis. When they do just the opposite (or the jury is way, way out)
     
  12. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    What is Man U reserves being "cracked up to be"? Does anyone here think that in every situation Man U reserves is the best option for an American player? Of course not.

    I really want to be polite, but I can't stop myself from saying how dumb this is.It's just obvious that in some situations, Man U reserves can work out, sometimes it's not the right choice. Sometimes it's better than trying to hook up with a smaller team, but sometimes it's not. It really just depends on the situtation.

    But the thought that Alex Ferguson's comments on Alan Smith is at all relevant to Kenny F-ing Cooper's experience is just the height of ignorance. There is nothing the same about the situations at all. Zero. And Alex Ferguson realizes of course that Alan Smith is a different kettle of fish than the rest of the younger, much less experienced and unproven players in the reserves. Do you really think he's stupid enough to say something that would undermine the credibility of his reserves system? Of course not. Does that at all tell you that you've got the premise of this whole thread completely wrong? It should.
     
  13. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    So you are questioning high-profile reserve play only for Americans? Well, you've got a pretty small sample there - but here it goes.

    If you are talking only Americans at Man U you have: Rachubka, Spector, Rossi, Cooper, Kirovski - anyone I'm missing?

    Kirovski - moved from Man U to Dortmund. Good move. Went to B2 also, as well as Portugal, CC and EPL before MLS - what other option would have worked better for Jovan? What league did he miss out on that would have fit?

    Rossi - loaned to Newcastle. Good loan. He is not getting enough time, but do you think he would have gone to Newcastle from Red Bull or Leyton?

    Spector - got good game at Charlton. Getting good game this season. To count him as a failure is simply wrong.

    Cooper - two loans, failed to impress. Got a gig in MLS (which is likely where he would have started anyway) does well. What is the alternate career path?

    Rachubka - working his way down the English leagues: Charlton to
    Huddersfield Town - where he was the starter until last fall when his bobble cost them a shot at promotion. No lack of chances there.

    strawmen: Landon - he did not lack Euro opps after BL (Portsmouth among others) he and/or MLS just chose not to take them. Landon coming to MLS, whether you like the choice or not, was his choice and not the result of a lack of Euro ops.

    Others:
    Benny F: Reserve player at Hamburg, late a starter. Good or bad for Benny? You make the call.

    Thorrington: Reserves player got a gig at Hudderfield Town. Road them down ended up in MLS and has not looked like the player he was alleged to be to me.

    Casey: Dortmund reserve to Mainz. Injury issues.

    Karby: Arse reserves. Ispwitch loan, Burnley move, AZ try out - ultimately unsuccessful at all. Better career path? DC United to - Vancouver Whitecaps?

    As a general rule young, promising Americans have 4 choices: College, Bigger Club Reserves, mid-level clubs, MLS. Will Spector do worse than Dolo or Gooch? Did Albright miss his chance by not going abroad? How many US players go to middle clubs and move up? How many go from MLS to Euro success?

    It seems there are three ways to "move up" soccer wise, if first team, Big 4 play is your goal: Internationals. There is a decent argument (see Heydude, Frankie) that coming up domestically, catching fire in the international stage (although it is more often in a U tourney - Benny, Spector, Lando etc.) will get you a big contract, but even then those guys had to do time in reserves (Heydude - who doesn't get slagged as much as Kirovski, did turn down a Nurnberg move and washed out in a big way in the mighty swiss league.)

    Or you get signed young by a big club (O'Brien, Rossi). This option is more difficult with the law changes.

    Or you move through a midlevel, usually domestic league to get attention in bigger leagues: Adu, Bradley, Beasley (although his PSV move probably came out of JK and playing Hiddink in the Gold cup, friendly and WC.) etc.

    Which is the best route? I have to argue it depends on the player. Do you think Karby gets to Arsenal, Cooper gets to Man U or Kirovski gets to Dortmund by playing in LA or Chicago? Maybe, but I doubt it. I think the real answer is none of those guys are Arsenal/Man U/Dortmund regulars on their best days. And that's what playing, whether reserves, loan or contract, ultimately tells you - over a couple of seasons.
     
  14. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    Spector and Rossi have each played 6 games this season. Just under half the total played. Between Rossi, Spector, and Cooper, that's 12 first team EPL appearances when all EPL teams have played 13 games. The notion that this journeyman level of appearances proves the value of an EPL reserve stint is dubious.

    [After all, MLS product Tim Howard has more appearances for Everton (a full 13) than does this lot combined. Similar pattern for McBride (13), Boca (10), Hahnemann (13), Convey (8), and Friedel (13).]

    Spector and Rossi also play for the 16th and 17th best teams in England, potential drop material. Most of the MLS-exes are at superior teams.

    I'll admit, Spector and Rossi have some time yet to make their mark, but it's worth noting that Convey is only three years older than Spector and four than Rossi (even Rossi will be 20 next year). At some point you have to produce like an adult.
     
  15. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    By not comparing them to Americans who did pick MLS and move on, or who went to, say, Standard Liege, you don't see the big picture. It's a self-selected group, those who move on from MLS, yes (it does explicitly exlude those who never make the move), but a whole lot of those who move on from MLS get good PT where they move, and get multiple chances abroad, like Howard or McBride. As opposed to the crapshoot of joining some big franchise, which seems no better than starting in MLS, if not worse, because in MLS you can at least guarantee PT and USMNT visibility.

    Landon as strawman? Laughable. He's the posterboy. Simple facts, whilst people try and dredge up counterfactuals and rumors of European alternatives: where'd he end up? Do you really think he'd sold people on anything else by barely appearing in Germany? Let's just ignore the facts, shall we, and deem the classic example a straw man. That's debate tactics, not rational evaluation.

    Worth noting is that Feilharber's Hamburg may be in B2 by next season.

    It's also worth noting that the USMNT lineups and subs for Germany were dominated by people who started out in MLS, with the exceptions of Dolo, Onyewu, Donovan, Keller, and Reyna. Of them, Donovan didn't start playing meaningfully until loaned back to San Jose, Reyna had to switch to Wolfsburg after suffering a similarly painful stint in Leverkusen, and Onyewu suffered through Metz until he was loaned and then ended up in Belgium. Only Keller and Dolo really hit the ground running in their foreign starts. That's 2 guys off of our whole starting lineup who hit the jackpot.
     
  16. Fire-Chop

    Fire-Chop New Member

    Jun 8, 2004
    Just a few notes:

    There is a big difference in 19 & 23

    Spector was injured and unavailable for much of the early season.

    Copper was in the top 10 in scoring in MLS and the only non-veteran in that group.

    I would say it is Far to early to start calling these guys topped out in their careers.
     
  17. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Ok now you're just talking nonsense. What MLS player went to Standard?

    Benny may be in the B2 next year? Might be the best thing for him. USMNT players who have been in the B2: Dolo, Gibbs, McBride, Wynalda, Kirovski among others.

    And what is the list of players who went from MLS to lots of Euro playing time? I mean, Landon actually went from MLS, remember?

    I don't really understand what you are aguing anway - are you saying chose MLS over Man U reserves because Man U reserves landed Cooper in MLS??

    Anyway, you obviously are sure of your position, even if I'm not sure what it is, so we will have to agree to disagree.
     
  18. ugaaccountant

    ugaaccountant New Member

    Oct 26, 2003
    Your looking at the absolute best players MLS has to offer after a decent number of years seasoning and comparing them to about 10 18 year old prospects. The statistical validity of this comparison is nil.

    For every success story * of a player who started as a reserve in a big club (JOB, Donovan, Twellman) there are others who don't make it big (Karbassiyoon, Whitbread, Simek) with a few in between (Cooper, Kirovski). Guys 20 and under are far too young to conclude on (Spector, Nguyen, Rossi). That's really all over the board as far as i'm concerned. You can't expect every one of these guys to be a superstar as 1. Not all were huge prospects when they left and 2. It was way too early in their career to judge. We are not England where 18 year olds have had years of top notch training. For some of these kids they'd had 2 years at Bradenton and others had had only NT training camps, and some like Cooper and Karby had not even been picked out as a prospect by our NT system.

    Now you compare that with the MLS first guys. Rough guess is 10 new american players per team enter MLS each year. So that is 740 over the last 7 years, about the period we're comparing to here with this sample. 740 is a large number. 740 is a valid sample size. The list of american MLS exports in that time who went to a top 6 league first division squad is as follows:
    Friedel
    McBride
    Boca
    Beasley
    Howard
    Michael Bradley
    And Convey who was at least a big dollar transfer even if it was to the Championship.
    So 7 out of 740 or 1% of the guys coming into the league made it to the bigtime.

    Another reason for starting in the reserves is you get paid more and earlier than by going to MLS. Only a few HS kids a year get selected for MLS's GA program so for many the choice is reserve ball or college. Not many kids can land a full pro contract with any club without either wasting time in college or significant luck involved. For every Preston Zimmerman who does, there are plenty of Villaneuva's, Farfan's, or Nakazawa's who don't. If you don't recognize those names, they are all top prospects who recently tried to land a job abroad as a full pro with no youth/reserve team experience.

    If I was a prospect, I'd take my chances (and paycheck) starting in the reserves.

    * Success story - I define as making good money and playing for our national team. We could quibble about definitions but some people may conclude that Simek and Whitbread are a success story as he found a consistent job in England or may conclude that Donovan was a failure b/c he plays in MLS or O'brien b/c he's injured.
     
  19. Slingerfan1977

    Slingerfan1977 New Member

    Sep 6, 2005
    This is just another horrible thread by VLA, get used to them. His lack of situational understanding is comical at best.

    It's truely amazing that someone doesn't understand the difference between an Alan Smith and Kenny Copper. Just because SAF says reserve football isn't great for a proven EPL goal scorer doesn't mean it's a bad option for a kid right out of highschool who's only other clear option was SMU. Cooper did receive contract offers in England when he asked ManU to release him but he chose to comeback to TX. He wouldn't have had those same offers playing at SMU.

    I also like how VLA ignores Spector's injuries and tries to make a case that Jon isn't a starter. Just rediculous.

    Every player is different and generally they will settle at a level that fits their ability. It doesn't matter if they start with Oldham or ManU. Only an idiot would assume that Cooper, Spector, Gooch, Reyna... were hurt by signing with Euro clubs and starting in the reserves. They all played and developed in the reserves and progressed from there. Each individual takes the best opportunity that presents itself and try to make the most of it. Not everyone will succeed, even in MLS.

    Please stop making stupid threads
     
  20. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Good post, with useful examples. Allow me to take a stab at the one above. Good.

    You're right that each player's situation has to be evaluated individually, but if I'm Robbie Rogers and you're offering me $400,000/year for three years, I won't be wasting much time mulling things over.
     
  21. mik_smith

    mik_smith New Member

    Feb 5, 2001
    London
    "He really needs football and reserve-team football is really for the youth team and doesn't present the right challenge for an experienced player like Alan [Smith],"

    this isn't a statement about the reserves, this is a statement about alan smith. fergie's doing him a favor by badmouthing the reserves, but what he's really saying is "git tae f**k and dinnae riturn til ya huv a proper position" (anger added for humorous effect -- apologies to any scots in the audiences). the tip off is the bit about smith "needing a challenge." experienced players don't need challenges while coming back from injury, they need to get in shape: a need that can be addressed by a few runs with the reserves.

    loans are for players who have to prove themselves (or for those on the way out -- whether transfer or salary dump). i love smith's game and he's about as established as they come with england caps, multi-million £ transfers, bigcup experience, and so on. so a loan to lower division would be a blow for him (hence fergie couching it as a fitness thing: "he needs football"). but they've been whispering this for a while in england: smith is a tweener. he doesn't score enough to be a striker, not creative enough to be a 10, not quick enough to be a wide man, and yet to prove that he can be the next roy keane in the middle. fergie thinks smith needs a "challenge" -- presumably it's to find a position and prove he can deliver.

    sorry to be pedantic -- i'm enjoying the debate about mls vs. big club reserves vs. small club -- but i don't think saf is saying anything relevant to ya's here. sidefootsitter had it right way back when -- this is about a guy making $8m/yr and a club not sure he's worth it.
     
  22. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
  23. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    Success story? You call coming home with your tail between your legs a success story? No wonder you feel that I have no right to even be maintaining my position, and have neg-repped me as a troll for merely sticking to what I think is true from the facts (just so we can be public about what you did privately ... and you're the first person to ever neg-rep me, fyi).

    When someone goes over to big money Europe and doesn't stick and ends up in MLS starting afresh, that's arguably a failure of their reserve stint, not a success. Being fair to those who treat Convey as a reserves success as well as a DC one, some people actually stick and that is my version of success. There is a list of successes and I am not a dogmatist where I will not admit them.

    I merely think the list of failures outweighs the successes by far. It says something to me that your successes are not really such, that there are debatable people like Kirovski in the maybes, and that there are quite a few flushes, people you or I have named. Very few true successes. There are very few guys who zipped through reserves, found a home in Europe, and have more or less stayed there. Quite a few either ended up with lesser teams or back in MLS, and my argument is rather simply that, why not go where you'll end up, in the first place? After all, many MLS guys have shown that you can move up from MLS to Man U and the sort of teams these kids think they have to jump to immediately (but for whom they usually end up in a reserve dead end).

    Using the whole MLS as a statistical sample of people with a shot abroad is highly misleading. The reality is that a smaller set group of people, who have often had youth or senior NT experience, are the ones from MLS who will "get considered". Using everyone dilutes the reality that Europe is only possible for some, and makes a bad argument look better. You can look at MLS teams and divide the teams up between "likelies" and "unlikelies", and failure to do so renders the statistics inaccurate.

    I was never making a statistical point about 18 year olds, I was talking about the best route to Europe. If the facts favor being in MLS til you're 25 or 28, then moving, I'm sorry, that is a fair comparison to the 18 year olds who roll the dice and then get flushed. They are all in the same pool of Americans, of all ages, trying to play bigtime soccer, and the question is how best to get there and stick. I can't slough off the older guys who run their careers smarter just because they're not the same age; after all, I could argue they were once the same age, and that it was choices made at that age and thereafter (eg, that I will play in MLS at 17 rather than Man U reserves (Convey, Adu)) that separated them from the pack that fail. It's one big pool and I am not going to toss the Yanks Abroad from MLS success stories you even listed.

    And the thing about the "paycheck" argument is that most do not end up progressing to even bigger paydays. Most stagnate or end up back here. And then some guys like Beasley start cheap and end up expensive. Some of this is a question of short term versus long term, and some of the long termers who start here then leave have made out better. Now, there are some like Keller who've done different, but I think reserves value has at least been put in question.
     
  24. ugaaccountant

    ugaaccountant New Member

    Oct 26, 2003
    The guy playing for blah blah fc's reserves was never supposed to start for our u-20's anyway. He didn't start for the u-17's last year and you add in older competition and I can't imagine why he'd be expected to start. He's one of the lucky kids who had a passport or else he'd be in college right now. Please try and remember that not all prospects are created equal. As he is a guy who physically peaked really young he may not get any better, no matter where he plays.
     
  25. Vicious Lhasa Apso

    Vicious Lhasa Apso New Member

    Aug 8, 2006
    You miss the point. If reserve play sucks, it really doesn't matter if we are talking about Cooper and Smith, or Cooper vs. Smith, it's a matter of fact independent, above, and beyond any comparisons of players. And the point was, anyway, that both players' experiences, as well as Fergie's comments, prove this.

    You're avoiding the Cooper/Donovan parallel. I doubt Cooper went to Man U intent on settling for Dallas, just like I doubt Donovan's early career plan was to take a MLS loan. Using the SMU argument avoids the basic fact that he didn't go that route and then got spat back out for all his efforts on the reserves and at Oldham. One would think that when one goes to Man U instead of SMU your expectations rise above merely doing better than SMU, especially if you are a success story in the reserves, scoring 15 goals. In other words, your idea of raised opportunities neglects the fact that Man U probably changed the expectations, too. To then end up at Dallas, even if it's home, is a failure, a bummer. That's not what people go to bigtime EPL teams to do, is come back to MLS.

    Spector has never started more than half the games in a season. He started 16 of 38 games last year, and 6 of 13 this year. Calling that a "starter" strains the word. That might tend to hint that someone else is the starter, or at least that he is merely in a rotation. When I was in college, I started 90+% of the games. That's a starter. Wayne Rooney is a starter. Tim Howard is a starter. Spector is on the brink, but let's not put potential over actual facts.

    I don't deny your right to post stuff, don't act like I have no rights, especially when your arguments are no less swiss-cheese in their quality.
     

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