Siege Mentality - Valencia - Phill Ball Article

Discussion in 'Spain' started by Kobranzilla, Oct 2, 2003.

  1. Kobranzilla

    Kobranzilla Member

    Sep 6, 2001
    NY F'in City
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=278953&cc=5901

    Siege mentality

    Phil Ball

    Interesting article in last week's Guardian by Ron Atkinson regarding the appalling behaviour of the Arsenal players at Old Trafford. He was talking about the 'siege mentality' on which sides like Arsenal thrive, where a group of men are convinced - either by someone in charge or by the public's general attitude towards them, that they are disliked - and disliked unfairly.

    ***MODERATOR'S NOTE - POST WAS EDITED --> DO NOT POST ENTIRE ARTICLE TEXT***
     
  2. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Always enjoy Phil Ball's take on La Liga, especially with his ability to incorporate the cultural nuances of Spain, not just the footballing aspects.

    Valencia certainly look to be among the strongest again this year, won't be surprised if they end up winning La Liga, but I certainly expect them to reclaim a Champions League place.
     
  3. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another note, just look at who is going to be called up for Spain's game against Armenia for Euro 2004 qualifying.

    LISTA DE CONVOCADOS
    ATLÉTICO: Fernando Torres
    ATHLETIC: Etxeberria
    BARCELONA: Puyol
    BETIS: Joaquín y Juanito
    DEPORTIVO: Luque y Valerón
    REAL MADRID: Casillas, Helguera, Michel Salgado y Raúl
    SEVILLA: Reyes
    REAL SOCIEDAD: Xabi Alonso
    VALENCIA: Albelda, Barja, Cañizares, Marchena y Vicente

    Is it any surprise that Valencia also has the most call ups to the national team right now? Another piece of evidence as to why they are looking so strong.
     
  4. gento

    gento New Member

    Jun 24, 2002
    Valencia(Spain)
    Valencia is not considered in the left of the political scene.
    In fact,PP(right side) has governed here for the last 10 or 11 years.
    The writer has no clue about Valencia and his political scene.No *#*#*#*#ing clue.
    And he said Juan Sanchez is one of the most creative players of Valencia CF.Hilarious.
     
  5. The Double

    The Double Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 11, 2002
    Denver
    I remember 2 seasons ago I was in Valencia to see the last game of the season against Betis. Vivir Sin Dormir was the spot!
     
  6. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Historically, though, Valencia was the last major city to fall to Franco during the Spanish Civil War. Maybe that's because of geography, but it remains significant. Sure, the PP has been in control there recently, but I don't think it is unfair to consider Valencia, historically, to the left of Spanish politics. Especially considering the brotherhood they seem to share with their Catalan neighbors, it's easy to see them as an extension of that Catalan culture, including politics, with Valenciano as an official language, etc... Hasn't the PP done ok, even in Barcelona?

    Economically, the PP has done a lot for some, so it's not surprising that they have found new support in areas that haven't been traditionally more conservative.

    I do agree with you on the Juan Sanchez line though, never been one of my favorites, and I was under the impression that he rarely starts anyway, especially in their league matches.
     
  7. gento

    gento New Member

    Jun 24, 2002
    Valencia(Spain)
    I dont dislike Juan Sanchez,but he is not a creative player.He is a decent player,can score some goals.but he is not creative at all.I think the most creative Valencia players are Aimar,Jorge Lopez and Vicente.
    About the political questions.You can say that PP has found support in the areas that haveen been traditionally conservative,but:
    1.PP is governing here way before than they get the central goverment.They have governed here in Valencia council(it is the English word for "Ayuntamiento") and "Generalitat Valenciana".
    2.The PP is the most voted by far.
    Believe me,Valencia is not considered now to the left of Spanish politics.Historically,I dont know.
    About this brotherhood they seem to share with their Catalan neighbors
    You are so wrong here.Believe me,I am Valenciano,I have lived here fot my entire life:Valencianos dont like very much the Catalan people.In fact,there is some rivalry between Valencianos and Catalanes.
    There are some Valencian people("catalanist") that considered themselves as Catalan;they are independentist and yes,love Catalan people.Also,they hate Madrileños(well,when I write hate,I mean "hate".Some rivalry,you know.It is not like we shoot at each other because they are Catalan or Madrileño).But they are the minority here;about 5-10 % of population.
    In fact,in the 80's and early 90's,Barcelona was the most hated team by Valencianos.It was due to political reasons.Now Real Madrid is the most hated club here for several reasons,but Barcelona,though not so much hated as some years before,is not a loved team at all.
    Excuse my poor English,I hope you understand me.
     
  8. Malaga CF fan

    Malaga CF fan Member

    Apr 19, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good information and thank you. I lived in Spain for a year and a half, and I probably have the outsider's viewpoint. I lived with Spanish students and plunged as deeply as possible into Spanish culture, but I was in Malaga, so I didn't get to know many Valencianos. Phil Ball may have the same problem, lives in Spain (I believe in San Sebastian) but sees it as an outsider. And let me say, that many outsiders can easily confuse Valencia and Barcelona. Unless you live there, understand the culture and grow up in it, you just get photographed glimpses of it. Catalan and Valenciano culture look similar from the outside and it's pretty easy to get them confused. Even the language looks similar, although I know that Valencianos insist that their language is a separate language and not a dialect of Catalan. Kind of like Mallorquin.

    A similar comparison might be to compare Bostonians and New Yorkers here in the US. Sure, they are fairly close geographically. Have funny accents, although different, and represent the two oldest cities in America. But they are very different, politically, culturally, etc.... Oh yeah, and the Red Sox and Yankees fans (beisbol) hate each other (like Real Madrid vs. Barcelona hate).

    Again, thanks for shedding some light on the Valenciano vs. Barcelona argument. I learned a little more about Spain.
     
  9. gento

    gento New Member

    Jun 24, 2002
    Valencia(Spain)
    You are right,many Valencianos insist that their language is a separate language of the Catalan one.
    However,there is a big difference in the language matter between Barcelona and Valencia.In few words:In Barcelona,many people speak Catalan.You can go to any place and it is probable people will talk to you in Catalan.In Valencia,very few people speak in Valenciano_Of course,we know our languague and we can use it,but people is more used to speak in Spanish.The chance of someone speaking to you in Valenciano is very very small in Valencia.
    There are some towns in Valencia(And Alicante and Castellon) were most of people are Valenciano-speakers,but in Valencia most of people talk in Spanish.
    Also,Catalan people is way more nationalist(separatist) than Valencia people.I am sure you have seen some flags with the words "Catalonia is not Spain" in some public events in Catalonia(p.e FC Barcelona matches).In Valencia there are very few nationalist people.
     
  10. JuanRojo

    JuanRojo New Member

    Oct 7, 2003
    Valencia article ...

    Have to say the Juan Sanchez remark by Phil Ball made me laugh. Not sure he knows what he is talking about there. Actually, he's said a few football things that are a bit odd, but anyway ... I sometimes think his attempts to make football relate to "society" and the "character" of Spain are sometimes a bit clumsy. Normally impressive, though.

    Valencia may be PP, but its regional nationalism (for want of a better word) is getting more and more important - and I think, although correct me if I'm wrong, anti-centralism forms a part of Valencia fans' hatred of Madrid these days, doesn't it? The whole political favors business ...

    Along with other factors, of course - like Madrid trying to buy all of Valencia's players.
     
  11. Levante

    Levante Member+

    Jul 28, 2001
    Everything that Gento said is right on. I'm not Valenciano like he is, but I did live there 5 years ago when I was a college student. Valencianos are very proud people and are extremely proud of their customs and traditions.

    Gento......where do you live? I lived on a small street in Valencia. La calle Carcagente.



    I actually wanted to edit this a little more. I just read the article and Phil Ball clearly has it wrong regarding the Valencia/Barcelona love. There practically is none, I don't know what the hell he's talking about.

    Finally, I don't ever remember the team ever called as "the bats". The Spanish word for bat is "Murcielago" and that word was just not used. Always "los Che's" or simply "El Valencia".
     
  12. JuanRojo

    JuanRojo New Member

    Oct 7, 2003
    Yeah, the Bats thing was plain bizarre. Quite a bad mistake, to be honest. Ches it alwasy is.

    And Valencia, as I understand it, have alwasy hated Barca. the Madrid hatred is a bit newer, I think. Isn't it?
     
  13. gento

    gento New Member

    Jun 24, 2002
    Valencia(Spain)
    Hi Levante,I live very near of Hotel Renasa(30 metres from it),in the Avenida Primado Reig.Mestalla Stadium is 5 minutes walking from my house.
    The Madrid hatred here is newer,you are right.Some years ago,Barcelona was the most hated club(political reasons principally).Right now,Real Madrid is the most hated club here by a mile.It(the hate) started when Mijatojivc joined Real in 1996.Then,some facts contributed:Real Madrid-Valencia Champions League final game in Paris(there weren't any incidents,but 3-0 hurted Valencia fans a lot),Real try of signing Mendieta,etc.
     
  14. JuanRojo

    JuanRojo New Member

    Oct 7, 2003
    I think Mijatovic, Mendieta (and this season Ayala) are important ... Valencia fans despite being a genuinely big club think that Madrid are treating them is if they were nobody - a team to plunder players from. Or at least, that's the impression I get.
     
  15. Levante

    Levante Member+

    Jul 28, 2001
    Gento,

    El Hotel Renasa esta cerca del Rio Turia? No me acuerdo de el. Si me acueardo de la Avenida Primado Reig y porsupuesto que me acuerdo de la area en donde se encuentra el Mestalla. Vives en buen area. La Universidad de Valencia se encuentra al norte del estadio y por lo que me acuerdo, alli se vive bien.

    Back when I was there, Barcelona was the most hated club because they were winning ligas. The cultural aspect also contributed to a lot of this. I see your point now though.......Real Madrid have to be hated since that loss to the Merengues in the Champions league.

    Valencia though got some sweet revenge when the won the Liga two seasons ago. I wish that I could have been at the Plaza Ayuntamiento during the celebrations.
     
  16. gento

    gento New Member

    Jun 24, 2002
    Valencia(Spain)
    Mira,el hotel Renasa esta en el cruce de la Avenida Primado Reig y de la Avenida Cataluña(es la avenida de entrada a la ciudad si vienes por la autopista de Barcelona,la A-7).
    Si,vivo muy cerca de la Universidad.
    Tu español es muy bueno.
    Of course,Barcelona was also hated because they were the best team.You know,succesful teams are always hated.
     
  17. Levante

    Levante Member+

    Jul 28, 2001
    Gento,

    Gracias por tu comentario sobre mi espanyol (no se como escribir estas pinches tildes). Mis padres son Mexicanos y gracias a Dios siempre exigieron que hablara el espanyol. Me da mucha pena cuando veo padres hispanoparlantes que dejan a sus hijos hablar solamente el Ingles. Hay que hacerlos a fuerzas........pues el hablar el espanyol para mi fue un pedazo de carbon que se convirtio en un diamante sobre el tiempo.

    De verdad, hecho de menos esas tierras Levantinas y voy a volver para el anyo que viene.

    Oye Gento........frecuentas el Internet-Cafe Baghdad en la zona de Universidad?
     

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