Effect of Gaelic Sports on Irish Football

Of course bogball and stickball drain our resources, but that's life. Gaelic games are an intrinsic part of most communities and good luck to them. You must understand that it is first and foremost a club game. County honours are only for the best players.

Rugby and football are pretty much divorced. In Leinster, at least, unless you go to a fee-paying school, you'll never learn to play rugby, which means most kids don't learn to play it. Might be different in Munster, especially Limerick.

The reason the Irish domestic football has fallen away is pretty much the reason many English clubs no longer get big gates. People got drawn by the TV in the 60s/70s into supporting big clubs such as Man Utd, Liverpool or Leeds and gave up following their local sides as a result. You'll get all sorts of justifications for it, but what it ultimately boils down to is that people mostly prefer bright and shiney things and that's not just an observation on football.

For what its worth, we have gone to summer football in the league. Many predicted that we could not compete with the GAA for punters, yet the gates are up despite the likes of Cork and Dublin doing well in Gaelic games. So we are feeling a bit more positive about what we can achieve. Plus football in good conditions is so much better to watch.

With the exception of the Old Firm, I think the gap is closing between the best in Ireland and the rest in Scotland. I think its partly caused because Scottish football is going through a bad time, while certain Irish clubs are becoming more professional. 15 years ago, Scottish clubs were foraging ahead. Now...

From what Irish League fans tell me, they think their best 4 clubs would currently finish behind our best 4 clubs in a league competition. Certainly, when players from our league now play up there, they seem to do better than they did down here.

 

I seriously doubt that the GAA significantly hinders the development of top class players anymore. Without the GAA I'm sure you would see many more soccer players with decent skills coming out of Ireland, but I doubt many of the best players in Gaelic would compete for a place on the National team. It seems to me that if a teenager is developing as a really impressive soccer talent, there are very few obstacles in their way anymore to taking up soccer professionally. And remember that most of the current National team who actually grew up in Ireland played football and hurling on intercounty level before going professional and it didn't slow them at all.

 

Good point.

What's the young, talented athelete going to plump for at the age of 15, when the offer of a contract with an English Premiership Club or the prospect of joining Dublin/Kerry/Cork etc.'s minor panel are dangled in front of him?

GAA might reduce the number of players playing competitive football in Ireland, but I seriously doubt it impacts upon the number of top level players we produce.

PS UP THE DUBS!

 

Take it from me, where I live (Kerry) the competition is intense. Some GAA clubs are great, turning a blind eye to training on fields, rearranging fixtures etc. Others are complete and utter ************ers, with the "we are Irish, you're West Brits" attitude of the dark ages. Just give me a watertower and a high power rifle with telescopic sights outside a GAA Convention...

And, for a young fellow, when the dream of getting paid in England seems a long way off but training for eg. Kerry minors only 40 minutes drive away, and with parents who would give their eye teeth to see their son in a Kerry jersey, and the choice of togging out at the side of a bog for KDL fixtures or prisitine facilites that the GAA have, and the wink nudge promise of a job/backhand that better players get (one rumour here has an inter county player getting a EUR20,000 to EUR40,000 "sweetener" with a GA club, outside travelling expenses), a lot of fine players go with the GAA.

 

I can offer some examples to back up my point,which will not conclusively prove anything, but are interesting.

Three of Ireland's best players in recent years were seriously good GAA players but still made the hop over the channel. Damien Duff, Niall Quinn and Denis Irwin (described by a bloke I know as one of the best under age hurlers ever to play in Cork).

On the flip side, two of Gaelic football's best players in the last 10 years, Graham Geraghty and Anthony Tohill both went over to the UK for trials and were summarily despatched back home. Despite being a Dublin fan, I'm not going to go into the Jason Sherlock/Liverpool fiasco!

I honestly think that the GAA doesn't stop the best football (soccer) players from making it.

Actually, as I write this more names spring to mind Kevin Moran, Packie Bonner, Shay Given........all Ireland players who were considered very good at GAA........ Michael Donnellan, John O'Leary and James McCartan...all top level GAA players not good enough in trials for top level UK soccer clubs.

 

But there will always be crossover in sport. It's not just GAA to football.

I bet a lot of the names you mention are very good golfers too, as is D.J. Carey, the GAA star. And I'm sure a number of players plying in the Eircom League could have been good at GAA. It's just that, in a place like Kerry, if one were good at both GAA and football almost all go with GAA rather than taking a chance with a trial with an Eircom League side or in England.

One player who plays on our local team is involved in a good tussle. He is 16 and plays under16 for Kerry in hurling and Gaelic football, and has just got trials for the Irish under16 football team.

I'll keep you posted.

 

Michael Donnellan

Nigel - Who did Michael Donnellan have a trial in England with? Saw him playing a few times for Galway United and wasn't that bad but didn't hear of him going across for a trial. Pity he didn't make it and stay gone as he's broken my heart a few times for Galway aginst Mayo.

Conor - Same issue with a great young GAA player in my local club. Had a trial in England and then had 2 seasons with Galway United. Now gone on a soccer scholarship to US. Probably lost for good to Mayo football and lord knows we need all the talent we can get.

 

I think that the GAA has retarded the growth of the Eircom League far more than the development of top class soccer players. But its not only the GAA thats responsible (or even chiefly responsible) for the miserable state of the Eircom League, its the overwhelming presence of the Premiership.

 

I agree with this.

My point was that the GAA does not hinder the development of top class Irish soccer players and that the very best GAA players are not good enough to play top level soccer.
The fact that Michael Donnellan (arguably one of the best 5 Gaelic football players in the country in the last 5 years) could only get a trial for Galway underlines my point

 

RE: GAA players are not good enough to play top level soccer.

This is not necessarily true. Kids that are good at one sport are generally good at the other.

I remember a kid coming to my GAA school at 15 from a Rugby school, having never played Gaelic Football. The next year he was a star player in the Lenister Schools Gaelic Football final. (Unfortunately we lost).

The fach that the kids are developed formally by GAA clubs and that soccer does not yet in most of the country - by a long shot - have the structure to do so means the kids have a much greater chance to develop as GAA players.

Soccer is now at least as popular as GAA and more kids would develop if the structure and coaching were in place to develop them.

Cheers,
P_C.

 

I think that the GAA does not have that much of an impact on pulling potential good soccer players away from the Eircom League. Well, from where I'm from originally anyway, Galway that's the case. It may be different in places like Kerry.
I think a bigger issue is that the Eircom league is poorly supported and has a lot of similar issues as MLS. People wonder why 70,000 can go see a Real Madrid-Roma friendly in Giants Stadium yet only 15,000 would only go see a Metrostars game. These people who attend such friendlies and love sit on their arse watching their favorite clubs team on TV say they only want to see quality football and leagues like MLS the Eircom League are not a good standard. Yet the very fact that they do not attend the local league games are the reason why the standard doesnt get better.
The same issues exist for the Eircom league in Ireland. Sure, we all love to put on our green shirts during the World Cup, but dont do anything about the local game.

 

Paddy_Canuck - soccer as popular as the GAA? That may be true at an armchair level. I suspect as many tune in for the average Premiership game or the highlights as would watch the Sunday game. Indeed, GAA is somewhat handicapped because a game like Sligo Roscommon may have a limited interest whereas the national soccer team gripped the nation.

But as a participation sport there is no comparison, and that is where things count. Flagwaving at the World Cup is worth nothing to the FAI. As a committee member of a club in the Kerry District League, we can only look with envy on the facilites that the GAA have, the numbers of members, of fellows togging out every week, the amounts of money they juggle. When people put down the KDL or soccer facilities I remind them that the GAA had about 100 years of a headstart, but they definitely are streets ahead.

Of course I don't blame the GAA. They are hardly supposed to quash their popularity. But things like the government grant for Croke Park, when soccer cannot be played there, was offensive for us soccer players.

 

Who exactly caused offence Conor? As for soccer in Croke Park, once the issues with the residents association and planning authorities are sorted out it's there if the FAI want it. Despite the impressions given by some of the GAA's public figures the top brass are totally in favour of opening up the stadium but want to bring the grassroots along with them. If at the next congress the 'top table' support such a move, it will be overwhelmingly carried. There is of course the tiny problem of the Govt's view of all this in relation to the Bertiebowl.

 

Exactly my feelings Ted, nicely put with the Metros comparison, as Shelbourne's biggest crowd this entire year was the friendly against ManU.

But I feel that the GAA does impede the Eircom League quite a bit. In my own case, I've been tempted to go to a few Eircom matches this summer, but have instead ended up in Croke Park or watching the All-Ireland's on television. And hell, I'm not even Irish. Its just the spectacle of a good hurling match just seems more enticing than an Eircom League match. I'll probably go out a bit later this summer, mainly because I'm not a huge Premiership fan and would probably feel pretty guilty going to a pub to watch an English team when theres live football for cheap in town.

Now if the GAA didn't exist, the Eircom League would provide about the only live team sport in Ireland and I feel would be justifiably big (at least I hope live sport is still more exciting than televised to most people). But thats not the case...

 

I think this is a case of yet another PR foul up by the FAI.
I readily admit that I have attended maybe 2 Eircom League/League of Ireland matches in my life despite growing up a few miles away from at least 4 major teams. However, I will still go to every Dublin GAA match I can, championship and league, despite living in the UK.
When I was growing up, the League of Ireland always had the image of a miserable Sunday evening spectacle played in front of 30 fans in decrepit stadiums. If the FAI / powers that be had invested a fraction of the revenues they earned from the Ireland team into improving the marketability of their own league, they could have made a huge difference. As it is, I fear they've missed the tide with the popularity of the GAA/Premiership a twin barrier to the league's advancement.
I would love to see a strong domestic league now, but as a kid when all you wanted to do was follow the bright lights and glamour, the brand name of 'the Dubs' was just far more appealing. I fear the same was the case for followers of the Kingdom, the Rebels, the Royal, the Tribesmen etc etc, to the detriment of national football/soccer.

 

If I remember right (and I don't know much about the ins and outs of GAA politics) the last Congress voted on a motion to allow the Central Board decide what games should be played in Croke Park ie. it would not necessarily allow soccer be played there, but would at least allow the Central Board to so decide.

Anyway, again if I remember right, there was a lot of movement the night before the vote and another ball of money was made available by the government to the GAA without any preconditions relating to opening up the pitch. The obvious inference was that the government was almost telling the GAA to stick to their guns in the knowledge that if Croke Park were opened up the National Stadium would become an irrelevance. Anyway the morion was shot down so even if the Central Board was very liberal, they don't have the authority to allow Croke Park to be opened up.

The offence was caused by the government when they gave the first major grant to Croke Park about 4 years ago - it seems that the only time they would assist a sporting organistaion was where (i) it had rules banning certain members of the community from playing (ii) no other sport was allowed on the pitch and (iii) the stadium project was in financial trouble.

 

I don't believe that Gaelic games take away from soccer,I played both codes plus soccer, when I lived there, I found it helpful in my training, as I was fitter than I've ever been before.I think Gaelic games & soccer can learn & grow together,there just has to be a desire on both sides to do this.Whether that will ever happen though ,remains to be seen.
Croke Park, has to be one of the finest, if not the finest facility of it's kind now in the British Isles, it's certainly the biggest. I wish there were more facilities like it.

 

I know in places like Galway, they are upgrading the stadiums. I have not been to the updated Croke Park but but brother has and said it is the best stadium he's been to (including a number of stadiums in England). They now have a surface which the Ireland national side who play in Landsdowne road could only dream of and a capacity of over 80,000.

 

I'd like to add my two cents to this discussion. I'm wondering how two factors influence the situation. the factors are (1) political and (2) milieu-oriented. Politically, soccer is seen as a colonial sport. Perhaps this is why the GAA has an upper hand in this situation. Also, don't forget that Gaelic games are played in the countryside and soccer is more of a city game. Outside of Dublin, how many city milieus does Ireland have? I think that when you consider that Ireland has had success in international soccer over the past decade and has had top talent over the years (Johnny Giles was quite a good soccer player), Ireland has it pretty good soccer-wise. But as has been pointed out earlier in this discussion, they could have it better.

Also, does anyone remember a former Derry footballer named Anthony Tohill from the early 1990s? He went on to try out at Ipswich Town after helping Derry win the Sam Maguire, but I don't think he made the grade in East Anglia. Could it be that his concentration on one sort of football hurt his proficiency in another code of football?

 

We've produced alot of players, Gilsey is an all time great and Liam Brady was recently voted in the top three foreigners ever to play in Serie A. We also have players from around the war, a defender who Busby said was Man Uniteds greatest ever and a few others, none of these ever qualified for a major tournament, it's a shame really.

 

You've hit a nail on the head here. Its a favourite stereotype of thicko journalists to dismiss domestic football as a bit of a joke in some mediocre article they are penning on English football or the likes.

This annoys me because they wouldn't have set foot inside a ground in years, if ever, yet think nothing of telling their readers its a bit of a joke, so don't bother going. They have no right to colour people's perceptions like this, yet they get away with it unchallenged.

If the FAI was serious about the domestic game (which they haven't been in years), they would look to stamp out this cheap and lazy "journalism", even if its for the sake of their sponsors, if not for the good of the game.

As the creation of the Premiership in England proved, its all about image. Plenty of bright colours, technology, money, and snappy music and suddenly football becomes the hottest thing in England. Before that (and, yes, football existed before the Premiership), it was NOT a family-day-out, nor was it a sport that many women had any interest in, nor was it something that politicians or celebs got too closely associated with. The idea of some poncey investment banker or his ilk being seen going to matches was so absurd, it would never have been suggested. Now they're all down at Chelsea or the likes. (While the working-class man gets squeezed out - but that's another story...).

A long rant, but the point is that if you change the "image" successfully, people's perceptions change with it.

 

At the turn of the last century, football was known as the "Garrison Game" and tended to be popular wherever the British Army was based, eg Dublin, Sligo Town, Cork City, Belfast etc.

GAA has always played on its nationalistic roots. Its not so long since the "Ban" on playing the likes of rugby and soccer was lifted. While it took even longer to allow members of the RUC (as it was) to play. However, most people do not get involved in the game just to identify themselves as being "more Irish", whatever that is...

I know Tohill trialled with Man Utd as a centre-half. Did he also go to Ipswich?

Don't forget Kevin Moran!