My proposal on how the MFL clubs should be picked for the Copa Libertadores & TFC CC.

Discussion in 'Mexico' started by Deleted USer, Sep 19, 2003.

  1. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Blazer was on TD and basically just said that sending non champs to the TFC CC is not acceptable becuase it woulndt be a champions Cup.

    I have always said on these boards that we dont put enough emphasis on leading the standings. To me and to the rest of the world, the league champ is the team that played the best through out the regular season. They are the ones who showed the most consistancy and should be considered LEAGUE Champ. The liguilla is not part of the regular season. I love the liguilla just as much as the next guy, Its fun, nerve racking, and grounds for a lot of trash talking... AND THE REASON... because little teams have a chance to play the big teams and upset them.

    But as el Vasco said in an interview after his first year in Spain, a flaw in the MFL is that a team that was 10th in the stadnings can go and become LEAGUE champion.

    most points = league champ
    liguilla winner = cup champ.

    Well... this is my proposal and this is how I would do it.

    SO.. to please both parties (TFC and CONEMBOL) i would implement the Super Cup. A playoff game between the cup champ and league champ.

    for example... instead of using the regular calender of Aug - June, i would use jan- dec since the TFC CC and Copa Lib starts in Feb/March

    Clausura 2003
    Morelia (super leader) v Monterrey (Liguilla)

    games played during the mid week of week 1 of the follwing season (home and away)

    Apertura 2003
    X (super leader v Y (Liguilla)

    games played during the mid week of week 1 of the follwing season (home and away)

    I think the super Cup make a lot of money, the importance would be there (winner gets to go to Copa Libertadores what more could you ask for), AND intensify old rivalries and create newer ones.

    winner of SuperCup go to Libertaodres.. and TFC still gets a champ
     
  2. Monkeyboy2000

    Monkeyboy2000 Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    San Fran Bay Area
    Club:
    CDSC Cruz Azul
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    You raise some interesting issues -

    First, is the current system of competition in the MFL doing just fine or should it be changed ?

    I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And I sure as hell wouldn't want it changed just to please the CONCACAF money-grubbers. Now I can totally understand why some folks don't like it and would prefer the single table approach. Not very viable in Mexico. The fans would be turned away in droves the moment their team was out of the running. Unlike Europe, where there are European Tournament slots to still compete for, for Mexican teams there are none. Plus the cash-cow that is the Liguilla will never go away.

    What el Vasco calls a 'flaw' is the spice in our tournament. Let's see what would happen in Spain if the only accolade was the League Championship - no Champions Cup runners up (hey Chuck Blazer, non-champions now play in the UEFA Champions Cup, imagine that). Liguilla play is a totally different dynamic than regular league play. Players are put in situations where there are two games (home/away) where they can be elliminated. The mentality is totally different and it affects players. Remember superlider La Piedad ? Cruising all year and then - wham ! It's this difference in metality that leads to some amazing games. And to me, to be able to perform with that type of pressure is what yields a true champ.

    Next topic, should there be more importance given to el superlider ? Totally agree with you here.

    RDL, your scheme sounds interesting and what you're basically asking for is really some reward for El Superlider. That's fine, but what I don't like about it is that now we would have even more champions. The great thing about being a champion is that, well, other teams are not. There is one definitive league champion after every tourney.

    Imagine the arguments after each tourney with the Super Copa idea -

    "My team won the Liguilla"

    "Well, my team won the Super Copa"

    So who is the best team ? Well, they both are.

    I would be more in favor of just giving the Superlider a slot into the Libertadores. The 'real' superlider. The one with the best total points over both Apertura and Clausura. No need to call them a champ of anything. Just give them a spot. Maybe have a home/away between the Apertura Champ and the Clausura Champ for the second Libertadores slot. Not another championship, just an ellimination to see who goes to the Libertadores.
    Call that the Super Cup as you suggest.

    So just a slight modification to your proposal.

    Now as far as the TFC CC. It really annoys me that the TFC gang wants to dictate to Mexico what teams or what players should or should not go into their tourneys. Mexico should be able to choose as they see fit. If they want to send the third string players, why would the TFC care ? (purely rhetorical, I know the TFC wants cash from the Mexican fans more than anything and that's why they care). My suggestion is to send the Apertura and Clausura Champs from Division 1A. The TFC boys get champions in their tourney and our young players get some international exposure.

    That should make Chuck Blazer happy.
     
  3. Deleted USer

    Deleted USer Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    You raise some interesting issues -

    First, is the current system of competition in the MFL doing just fine or should it be changed ?


    well, no need for groups. get the best 8. Since the FMF already admited openly that they were wrong for expanding to 20 teams, they will go back to 18. So thats 2 less games.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

    I think the reclasification playoff game (repechaje) is contradictory and useless. I dont see how Cruz Azul with 24 points can get a chance to go into the playoff game when you had America and Santos with more points. Cruz Azul had 24 points IIRC and Santos and America had 30 29 points.

    And I sure as hell wouldn't want it changed just to please the CONCACAF money-grubbers.

    I wouldnt change it for them. But to determine the BEST team of the regular season.

    Now I can totally understand why some folks don't like it and would prefer the single table approach. Not very viable in Mexico.

    In 1970, the MFL decided to do away with the single table to determine the Champ. They changed it up a little either just getting the best 4 teams (having 2 semifinal matches and a final) or having 2 groups where the top 2 go).

    I am not against the liguilla. but you look at the past the way they use to do it.... those were Liguillas. Those were the glory years. The regular season meant alot more. No 10 best team or 12th best team in there. Im envious of those games. My uncle recorded some of those games from the early to mid 80s when VHS started to come out.. Those were liguillas

    Im fine with having 8 team lguilla since the league is stacked, but I dont ant it diluted and the fan knows that. People will still watch the liguilla regardless if their team is there or not. Its mean years since I have missed a final or semifinal match.

    But look at the beginning... Cruz Azul won like 3-4 titles in the 70s but America was usually the superleader. Thats where that rivalry started to come about.

    The fans would be turned away in droves the moment their team was out of the running.

    If the best of the best are there, people will still watch. That was true back then and still holds true today.

    Unlike Europe, where there are European Tournament slots to still compete for, for Mexican teams there are none. Plus the cash-cow that is the Liguilla will never go away.

    I know the liguilla makes money, but it is a welfare. Is it a coincidence that teams that were non existant before now make a run at it? I am not against the small club, but lets be real.

    What el Vasco calls a 'flaw' is the spice in our tournament. Let's see what would happen in Spain if the only accolade was the League Championship - no Champions Cup runners up (hey Chuck Blazer, non-champions now play in the UEFA Champions Cup, imagine that). Liguilla play is a totally different dynamic than regular league play. Players are put in situations where there are two games (home/away) where they can be elliminated. The mentality is totally different and it affects players. Remember superlider La Piedad ? Cruising all year and then - wham ! It's this difference in metality that leads to some amazing games. And to me, to be able to perform with that type of pressure is what yields a true champ.

    A 6 game tournament is fun and nerve racking, but is deceitful at times. Look at the WC. I LOVE the world cup, but you have your croatias, bulgarias, turkeys, koreas etc. those arent the best teams but managed to get some breaks. good for them I applaud them

    Next topic, should there be more importance given to el superlider ? Totally agree with you here.

    RDL, your scheme sounds interesting and what you're basically asking for is really some reward for El Superlider. That's fine, but what I don't like about it is that now we would have even more champions. The great thing about being a champion is that, well, other teams are not. There is one definitive league champion after every tourney.


    well, we use to do it that way. The league champ. copa de campeones.

    I have come to the conclusion that Mexico will never have a Copa del rey or Copa Italia BECAUSE our second division is a welfare division. Our 2nd division depends on first division clubs and the people wouldnt buy it. I just cant picture Toluca vs Mexiquense in a Copa Mexico..

    So other leagues have 2-3 champs... the league cup, nations cup, and champions cup. Why not us, but with a slightly different format

    Imagine the arguments after each tourney with the Super Copa idea -

    "My team won the Liguilla"

    "Well, my team won the Super Copa"

    So who is the best team ? Well, they both are.


    Does Campeonismo mean something to you? It use to be done before. Why not again.

    I would be more in favor of just giving the Superlider a slot into the Libertadores. The 'real' superlider. The one with the best total points over both Apertura and Clausura. No need to call them a champ of anything. Just give them a spot. Maybe have a home/away between the Apertura Champ and the Clausura Champ for the second Libertadores slot. Not another championship, just an ellimination to see who goes to the Libertadores.
    Call that the Super Cup as you suggest.


    what happens when a team qualifies early with 3-5 games to spare? They tend to let up and give up points. Those points that are lost usually benefit those that have no business in the running while are att he expense of others. Many coaches in the MFL dont really care about finishing first because thier thing is... we will have to face them anyhow...

    Give the regular season SOMETHING more for teams wanting to play for keeps until week 19.

    So just a slight modification to your proposal.

    Now as far as the TFC CC. It really annoys me that the TFC gang wants to dictate to Mexico what teams or what players should or should not go into their tourneys. Mexico should be able to choose as they see fit. If they want to send the third string players, why would the TFC care ?


    because they have the power.

    (purely rhetorical, I know the TFC wants cash from the Mexican fans more than anything and that's why they care). My suggestion is to send the Apertura and Clausura Champs from Division 1A. The TFC boys get champions in their tourney and our young players get some international exposure.

    we dont need to make them more angry


    In all... I think we have one of the most if not the most competitive leagues from top to bottom in the Americas, but there is room for improvement
     
  4. Monkeyboy2000

    Monkeyboy2000 Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    San Fran Bay Area
    Club:
    CDSC Cruz Azul
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    The tourney keeps getting modified from time to time so yes, the league will adapt as they see fit.

    To touch on some of your points -

    Yes other leagues have plenty of champs but the reason they do is that they have a single table. No playoffs. Giving them plenty of other cups to play for (F.A Cup, etc) gives the non-contenders something to play for.

    I agree with you that the repechaje could be done away with. I would still keep the four groups though. In essence, this yields four distinct battles for a playoff spot. If you just had one table with the top 8 advancing, there would be only a single battle for that 8th spot. Yes this may mean that sometimes a very tough group may have a deserving team miss the playoffs. But that's life. Sometimes it's just unfair. Just as sometimes the superlider gets knocked off in the liguilla and sometimes an unlucky break in a game becomes a goal. (I still hate Cuchillo Herrera for that Cruz Azul vs Necaxa final a few years back. Sheesh, how many times has Cruz Azul been superlider and not been champ?) As you say, in any short series, any team can come out on top. But isn't that just sports in general ? The underdog team coming through to dethrown the powerhouse favorite. The most fair way to determine the champ is not necessarily the most entertaining.

    'Campeonisimo' was done away with because people just didn't care any more. There was some talk about having the Apertura champ play the Clausura champ for a 'Campeon de Campeones'. I would hate this idea. It takes away from being a champ. That's the problem with giving teams one more step to climb. If they should stumble, then their last accomplishment becomes meaningless.

    Totally agree on your assessment of the Division 1A teams. Cup games just don't pull in the fans.

    By the way, I do think teams play for keeps up until week 19. That home field advantage is huge and teams know it. A few months back I cranked out the numbers and it was something like 68% of the time that the team with home field advantage advances in the liguilla in the last 10 years or so. And in recent liguillas, week 19 has been amazing. The positions change with every goal as all teams play at the same time.

    So to sum up. I'm not against the competition being tweaked from time to time. I just hope they don't go overboard with crowning champions. The more winners there are each tourney, the less flavorful it is to be one of those winners. Sort of like in elementary school - to be the only kid who got a blue ribbon meant a whole lot more than if there were 10 blue ribbon winners.
     

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