Bad news: Pretty idiotic reasons. http://sports.yahoo.com/mls/news/ap/20020815/ap-mls-official.html If I read the article correctly, Kenny was suspended for issuing a Yellow to DC United defender Richie Williams for dissent. That can't be it. Did anyone see the DC-KC game Saturday? The article also mentions that Kenny received a "demerit" for his officiating at the Colorado - Fire game July 4. The article makes positvely no mention of any action that will be taken to improve Mr. Kenny's less-than-stellar officiating. Quite the opposite; Joel Machnik, MLS Toady, is quoted as saying,"Noel has been one of our best officials over the course of the past six seasons, and we anticipate him returning to the MLS referee pool in 2003." Why not mandate that the man pay his own way to Italy and follow Pierluigi Collina around for a month? Remedial officials training in the PDL? Anything? Okay, he's suspended but so what? The guy goes back to his day job for a few months and then comes back next season with the same tired sh**. This is supposed to increase fan confidence in the miserable quality of officiating in the league? Bah!
I don't think you read the article correctly - it says he was suspended for "his calls", Not for that particular call. While I did not see the game, I believe it had to do with a penalty kick goal which was disallowed and had to retaken due to D.C. players positions - Meola saved the retaken penalty kick. It is not automatic that he will be back next year, but in all likelihood he will requalify and be back for 2003. His officiating has not always been sh** - however; this year he has had a few ugly games. Unfortunately for the Fire a couple have been our games. If he is back next year it will be his last year due to the 45 yr age limit -- I think several of the MLS refs are getting near that point and that is why we are seeing so many newer ones calling the games. I don't think the problem with the refs is solely the refs. The linesmen are brutal. The refs have to rely on the linesmen for assistance and I imagine they are reluctant to overrule the linesmen relying on what they saw from their positioning. (I still cannot believe that BOTH the assistant ref and St. Silva missed the handball nor have I forgiven Chip Reed for his bad offsides calls resulting in disallowed goals at our home opener.) I think a better place to look at the officiating troubles would be with those who hire, review and assess the referees. Much like a coach is looked to for accountability for his players performances - who is accountable for the refs? Over the next few years, we will be getting quite a few new refs as the current ones hit 45 - but what good are "new" refs if the same people are assessing them?
Oh my God, they killed Kenny! The trouble is the refs rarely consult their linesmen. I've seen it a few times but nearly as often as they should. That said, to be honest maybe we're better off if they don't consult the linesmen considerign how blind the linesmen can be... I'll post the rant I wrote several days ago in another thread here: "The trouble is that the refs MLS uses are largely the same crew from 96 who were as good as they were ever gonna get back in 1996. Since then the level of play and players has improved drastically but the refs haven't so their suckitude is simply even more noticable now. What the league should have been doing for the last five years is working with USSF to train refs who are capable of handling Division 1 level soccer matches. They haven't done that, which is understandable to a certain extent as they were busy trying to grow the league. I accept that. The level of reffing in MLS now, however, has become simply unacceptable. They are ruining games and renderign them unwatchable with their stupidity. This makes the league look stupid to both fan and non-fan alike. MLS will not be taken seriously until non-soccer fans can stop being able to accurately say that MLS refs keep blowing way too many calls and don't even know the rules of the game. The league needs to get a Director of Gameday Operations who gives a flying ************ about the problem and is willing to take action. This person is not the current occupant, Mr. Machnik, who mistakenly thinks the refs are perfect and cannot be improved upon. At least, that's what he told the fans at Supporters Summit 2000 during his insulting tantrum when fans brought up the problem to him." This said, I really wonder what really prompted them to kill Kenny when there have been far worse reffing performances and some refs are consistently as bad or (Mr. St. Silva, I'm looking at you!) even worse than him over the past few years. Did he piss off someone with influence in MLS?
Totally wrong ! The 45-year-old limit is for holding a FIFA badge only. It does not have ANY bearing on a countrys own National leagues. In MLS, as in most leagues around the world, there is NO age limit - it's based on fitness test and game evaluations. MLS has had Refs older than 45 in the past, and will continue to have if they meet the standard.
In the mlsnet.com news release they state that Noel Kenny requested he not be removed from the schedule for the rest of the year and MLS has a two bad assessments rule. His last two games were the Chicago v. Col and DC v. KC games - the two games he had those bad assessments in. You are very correct that there are far worse - consistently worse - refs than Noel Kenny. Which makes you ask, who is assessing them???? How can they possibly keep St. Silva in the rotation?? I truly love and agree with your "rant".
Then your friend is wrong. Paul Tamberino was 47 when he quit last year. There is NO AGE LIMIT in MLS, or any other Division 1 League. It is ONLY a FIFA International requirement.
I watched the game and all I really noticed was what appeared to be a couple, well at least one, goal that was offsides. In replay, i still couldn't see any defenders behind the player. the second goal in question, was one offensive LA forward waaayyy offsides but he determined he wasn't inthe play. The problem with that is, he drew defenders toward him and to me, that means he was in the play. Even if the pass wasn't tohim...come on. It was bad reffing all around that game. LA got all the calls.
Few things: First, there is no age limit for MLS referees, deep throat is correct. Tamberino was over 45, and there are currently MLS ARs that are over 45 right now. Second, it was said half jokingly by the original poster, but Kenny will most probably be working USL (A-League and D3 probably) while he's away from MLS. And, he will be assessed in those matches. If his performances aren't up to par, he won't come back. Third, no offense joseph, but your rant was exactly that. A rant. Unlike what you said, there has been constant and consistent turnover in the ranks of MLS officiating. The people working in 1996 are certainly not the people there now. When an MLS ref fails, as Kenny has, in the eyes of an unbiased assessor, he's punished--plain and simple. It's happened before and it will happen again. The thing is, MLS refs fail a lot less than biased fans think, they do. If you went by bigsoccer posters, you would think that Kenny has failed every match for the past 6 years. He hasn't--I believe these are the first two he has failed in MLS ever. Nonetheless, he failed, he knows the consequences, and he'll pay the price. As a point of information, I'll repost a post I made in the DC forum. It shows the refereeing corps for 1998 (I don't have access to the 1996 info) and compares it to the 2002 corps. As you will see, there has been much turnover. The active pool of referees in 1998 had 23 members, the current active pool (I use "active" because some people are listed in the MLS pool but haven't done any games this year) has 20 referees. The 1998 list: Rutty Hall Stott Kennedy Valenzuela Saheli Prus Grady Heron Terry Kenny (not currently active) Yonan (not currently active) Ramirez (retired) Tamberino (retired) Baharmast (retired) Rodhas (retired) Angeles (retired) Covaciu (retired) Weyland (retired) Sheker (retired) Giordano (retired) Hunt (WUSA) Lay (WUSA) The 2002 list: Rutty Hall Stott Kennedy Valenzuela Saheli Prus Grady St. Silva (2001) Corrie (1999) Vaughn (2000) Salazar (2001) Simmons (2001) Kokolski (2001) Anno (2002) Bazakos (2002) Marrufo (2002) Johnson (2002) Poeschel (2002) (date of first game in parentheses) And, as a point of info, here are the referees that have worked in 1999, 2000, or 2001, but no longer are active: Seitz (WUSA) Sill Quinsenberry Perry Vega Tsapos So, for what it's worth, only eight of the current twenty referees in MLS have been there since 1998, nevermind 1996. Twelve of the twenty are relatively new, nine (45% of all MLS refs) of them having had their first referee assignment after last year's all-star break. It also should be noted that several referees have entered the MLS ranks after 1998 and disappeared before 2002 (the six above at minimum). In other words, when a referee truly can't hack it in the eyes of USSF and MLS, he's shown the door, as there are plenty of new, younger referees coming up the ranks through USL (as an example, Simmons had the A-League final last year). So, the argument that guys like Kenny, Corrie, etc., have a free pass and will never be reprimanded or punished when they have a poor performance is erroneous. History has proven otherwise and it's been demonstrated again with Kenny. It's just a simple matter of many fans--biased or unbiased--having A) a very different outlook from officials, adminstration, coaches, and players or B) a mentality where they'll never be happy with any referee.
Massref..what happened to that red head lady? Name escapes me now, but I thought she was pretty good. Is she just WUSA now?
Not sure if you're talking about Hunt or Seitz (neither are exactly redheads but both are close). Regardless, both are in WUSA. When WUSA formed, the female nationals and FIFAs went there, because the league was trying to follow FIFA's example of using mostly female refs on womens' games.
I know this which is why I said "largely the same", not "the same". Crucial difference. Obviously almost any group is going to have turnover in five years. From your own list, though, about half the 98 crew is still around (counting Kenny since he was only recently given the hook). Hunt and Lay would probably still be in MLS if it wasn't for WUSA. Also, most of the ones who aren't around are listed as "retired", not "fired". Is "retired" a euphemism for "fired" or did they really just quit? The problem then is that the "failure" criteria are too easy because fans of all MLS teams agree that MLS reffing sucks to an unwarranted extent. And that's not just a case of "you made a call against my team once". I watch completely neutral games in which neither the Fire nor I, really, have absolutely the slightest interest in the outcome and the reffing still verges from the acceptable to "sucks". Games where I can honestly say "That was a very well-reffed game" are fairly rare and I'm not hesitant to point them out since it helps me not be so despondent about the league. Yeah yeah yeah, refs are human and make mistakes, everyone thinks their refs are worst and it happens in other leagues blah blah blah.... I know all the usual excuses. The fact remains that even for fallible humans, compared to other leagues I've watched, in MS games too many obvious fouls are missed, too many phantom fouls apparent only to the referee appear, the refs are making calls while woefully out of position, they're letting players talk them into giving cards, they're letting players encroach on free kicks, they're officiating is woefully inconsistent within the same game especially in regards to the issuance of cards and they're not even following the rules of the game (the infamous Warzycha handball situation or the Fire game where Nowak was called offsides when an opposing player headed him the ball are but two of the sillier examples). Also, I haven't seen some of the newer refs in action but if Gus St. Silva is anything to judge by our referee training is devolving, not improving.
As a completely biased fan and a friend of a ref, I try to be objective about the officiating. I try not to question all of the calls, but more the "why was it called that way". You are stating that it is a simple matter of the fans being dissatisfied with the reffing. Many of the players and coaches have verbalized the same opinions - while you may classify them as biased -- they are not all wrong. IMHO, there is a lot of room for improvment.
Hunt...I thought she did a great job when I saw her. Actually, this philosophy is weird. can't she do lots of WUSA and some MLS? She didn't take any **** from players and was definitley not starstruck as it appears with some of ours now.
This is probably the biggest reason for the overall decline in officiating the last few years, aside from Machnick's mismanagement. These guys were really, really, good, and the only current ref who officiates in MLS that shows even the slightest potential of reaching that level is probably Michael Kennedy. Brian Hall has gotten better but is still too inconsistent.
Fair enough about the "largely the same", but I'd venture a guess that no other league in the world (or, moreover, professional sports in the USA) could say that 60% of their referees officiated their first match within the past 3 years. I find that to be quite a bit of turnover. To you, saying that "about half have been there since 98" might sound like a lot--to me it doesn't, and I'm not just thinking in a soccer sense. Moreover, to my knowledge, only 5 of the current 20 referees were there in the inaugural season (that's 25% retention in 6 years). In the NHL, NFL and NBA, I can guarantee that there is a much higher retention rate. Which brings up the point that you should be thankful that MLS doesn't have to fight a referee's union like most other first divisions around the world do. If they did, no one would ever get canned, and then everyone would be really pissed. Secondly, Hunt may very well be in the MLS, but for a variety of reasons, I don't think Lay would. Finally, "retired" certainly means "retired" in the cases of Baharmast, Angeles, Tamberino and Weyland. I'm not sure about the others, but I'm pretty sure they all "retired". The ones you like to deem as "fired" are the ones I listed as no longer active, or having reffed solely between 1999 and 2001. Well, you have stated some of my arguments, but I have a few more. You may watch other leagues, but a lot of fans on here don't. The simple truth--in my mind--is that besides the EPL and Serie A, I'd take MLS refereeing over most leagues in Europe. I watch the Scottish, Spanish and Portuguese leagues regularly, and I can say unequivocally that I think MLS officiating is better--particularly the ARs. It's certainly not perfect here, but many more goals are wrongly taken away in Europe right now for incorrect offside decisions. Anyway, I'll know we're disagreeing on this point, but I truly believe what I'm saying. As some evidence, I point out the performances of USSF referees at FIFA competitions. Going back to 1990, American referees have been retained in the top group of officials (meaning they performed better, in most cases, than many of the best Europe had to offer). Mauro in 1990, Angeles in 1994, and, more recently, Baharmast in 1998, Hall in 2002 and 1999 (Confed Cup), Tamberino in 1999 in 1999 (U17 Cup) and Stott in 2001 (U20 Cup). Hall and Stott, in particular, have been villified at the MLS level, but have been worldclass at the World Cup level. No one else finds that strange? Stott, for example, received the Brazil/Germany--undeniably, the single best match--assignment at the WYC. FIFA, at every tournament, recognizes the level of the USA referees and it wouldn't surprise me to see Stott working a semifinal at the 2006 World Cup. Even MLS fans recognize how well Hall did at WC02 (only a year after they thought he was the worst in the league). But, for some reason, whenever these men step on the field for an MLS match, no matter what they do, they suck. You don't find that odd in any manner? First, St. Silva is the only one of the newest additions that can be deemed "older" (over 32). For your sake, he'll only be around for a few years. Regardless, he shouldn't be an example of where the program is going--for good or bad. Where the program is going is to younger referees. Referees that get their national badges at a young age (Johnson, Simmons, Bazakos, Salazar, Anno and Marrufo are all under 28, I believe) and exhibit promise are immediately being put into MLS duty as 4th officials in their first year as nationals. Even before that happens, MLS referees are being "developed" at national tournaments like the USASA Select Cup and the USYSA Nationals. At those type of tournaments, men like Tamberino, Baharmast and Klenaitis are at these tournaments and identifying talent far before the A-League or D3 level. If they find the talent (as examples, Simmons and Salazar were at the 2000 and 1999 USYSA Finals, respectively), they "fast track" it, and get it to MLS as quick as possible.
If your friend lives nearby, then he's one of two people. And, if he's the one with a FIFA badge (more than likely), then he probably meant that he has to give that badge up at age 45. It was probably an issue of miscommunication/misinterpretation--not lying.
Re: Re: Good News/Bad News. Good: Ref Noel Kenny suspended Nawwww - I am sticking with lying!!! He doesn't live near by - so it is neither of the two you are thinking. I do wish I were friends with Mr. Kennedy -- cuz he's so cute!
I agree. Originally USSF was trying to make WUSA all-female crews. The obvious feelings of male referees were, that if that was going to be the case, then MLS should be all-male. USSF has quickly realized that, for whatever reason, they don't have enough quality female refs to staff WUSA fully (about half the games are filled by women). When that was realized, they should have went back to assigning the best refs to MLS and WUSA, regardless of gender. Unfortunately, they didn't. The best female refs are in WUSA. The top 10 or so male refs work MLS. The next best 10 male refs work MLS and WUSA. Put simply, I agree with you. Hunt can handle MLS. Seitz and Woo might be able to as well. With FIFA badges, they deserve the shot. What's most peculiar is that Hunt works A-League all the time. Why she doesn't work MLS is anyone's guess.
Re: Re: Re: Good News/Bad News. Good: Ref Noel Kenny suspended Whoops. By "nearby" I meant in Illinois. I forgot Kennedy was from there. I guess I should have said one of three people, but it sounds like he's not from your state at all.