There are 3 problems with your reasoning: 1. The system and style of play helped the Dutch CB's to simplify their job. The spaces were tight at the back and the CB's had to defend less space. If we go back to 4-3-3 with a higher line, things will be vastly different again and then we have to revisit these quality's you describe from de Vrij to see if they still hold up against the same opposition we faced at the WC. Or even against less opposition like when he got a panic attack against Estonia and lost the plot. 2. In case we compare Kongolo vs de Vrij, the point is more about complete vs incomplete rather than speed vs anticipation. You describe a hierarchy of preferable quality sets for a defender, but if both players check off the football ability box, it moves on to the next box like speed and manhandling for example. 3. Anticipation sounds great, but no defender has his anticipation always right. Misjudgment happens. In the past we called that a "de Boertje" (though that was not only about misjudgments, it was a defender that lived of his ability to read the game, possessing little speed) speed then gives a defender a possible second chance. Speed is corrective tool this way. I like this extra layer with a defender, certainly in a system with a lot of space in the defenders back. Speed was less important with our WC setup than in a possible 4-3-3 with a higher line. The importance of the quality differs from setup to setup. Again. Vlaar could exercise the fire fighting role as he was also helped by the system. The performance of the defenders can not be dragged over 1:1 when we talk about a different system. You react on a 4-3-3 system, but we did not play that way in the WC. On a side note, it also showed that in a 3 at the back the central CB does not necessarily does the build up. That is a misconception that Ronald de Boer also touched on when he spoke on national television. Like how they won the Euro U17 title next to each other? Yeah that was horrible. http://www.uefa.com/under17/news/newsid=1629610.html From that link: You formulate a general rule but do not discriminate for special cases. Also consider this. Koeman is a coach that does take that rule into account when he can, however had Kongolo as sub for de Vrij at the one point. Kongolo was the man behind de Vrij. A feyenoord fan can correct me here, but I am pretty sure this was the status at one point. Later Kongolo was used more to the left side again, after the Mathijsen injury, when he made his real break through. On top of this, IIRC I also read an article or even saw a interview on Youtube where Kongolo expressed preference to play as a right center back. I am not unsympathetic to this point, but Rekik was wanted by van Gaal from the very first months he played for PSV, though hampered due to injury and made his debut vs France already. Kongolo was taken to Brazil by van Gaal for a reason. The best defender from Feyenoord in the second half of the season was not de Vrij (though he closed strong), not BMI, but Kongolo for me. Actually Kongolo at one point was chosen over BMI when a choice had to be made between them. Go figure. BMI was part of the past campaign and has a great character. Now with the new campaign we have to reassess the situation and determine who we want to build on for the future. In that way my line up is not only build on realism, but also contains an amount of preferable direction to build towards. We don't have breathtaking vision these days or players that can go from seeing it, to executing it (Sneijder has become so wasteful). Ziyech can paint with his left foot but he redefines the word wasteful. Promes is actually a pretty complete package though not up to a very high level. But since van Gaal thought he was good enough to test vs France I say play him on his best spot more central. I want to see him tested there. About that. I suggest for next time a post with your own preferences. If you have your own ideas it is best to make an own line up. Saves me time as well. Anyway I like Man City playing football, they score many goals and we might have the players to do our own (light) version. What? Clasie is not a box to box player. What gives you that idea? He had cramp already in the Brazil match after barely playing at the WC. Also Xavi box to box? Clasie of all players lacks an engine for that role. That is just not a good idea. Clasie has play making ability's, either from a deeper position or more up the field. Make him commute all the time and you run him into the ground. Again. People forget that van Ginkel was closing in on Stroot and surpassed him at the U21 Euro. Not because Cor Pot kept him on the field, but because he did better than Stroot IMO. Stroot that tourney was ran past a lot. What you describe about Roma happened after that tourney. Van Ginkel in my book is as important as Stroot long term. That is why I still pity the day he went to Chelsea. Rekik and van Ginkel belong to the Dutch players with the best winner mentality, even leadership mentality. Ola John is a mental midget. They are at opposite ends of this spectrum. Van Ginkel was according to the Chelsea doctors also perfect in sticking and executing all exercises to come back from his injury, which was really quick. Van Ginkel might fail at first, but if somebody can pick himself up and push through, it is van Ginkel. Rekik the same. Ola John has 0 grit. 1 more thing to level with you. I see you quote me on multiple occasions and I will answer those, but I would like interaction brought down to a minimum between us. It's not that you don't make some interesting points, it's that you sprinkle your posts with ways of expressing yourself and addressing of people that I do not like. I do not want to empower your style of posting by putting energy into it.
Here are my thoughts about what is necessary to play central defense: quickness (which is different than speed) and positional awareness. The first cannot be taught the second can. I don't put "strength" into this category because there are lots of counter examples to the "Hulk" (not the Brazilian in this case but the comic book hero). Look at the three great Italian central defenders in the past 15 years: Cannavaro, Maldini, and Nesta; three very different kinds of players but singularly very good defenders. Cannavaro was short but had such excellent positional awareness that he was seldom beaten; Maldini started out as a left fullback and played a number of years there before moving to the middle and Nesta was just all around great. THIS is particularly informative in terms of what is needed from a mental perspective. I agree with what DRB says above, the Dutch approach to defense in the WC markedly decreased the amount of space each player was responsible for recognizing that Vlaar and de Vrij are not the quickest players. Martins Indi is quick but unfortunately often is bad positionally. The wingbacks also played much more defensively which made it technically more of a 5-3-2- than a 3-5-2 in the Italian (and Juventus) style. Because of this we only concede two goals from open play. This goes to show that van Gaal chose a tactic that masked the shortcomings of the individual players so the team could progress deep into the tournament. IMO if they had played a traditional 4-3-3 throughout, they might have scored more goals but certainly would have conceded more as well. The end result might not have been as successful. The other problem is that none of the back three were quick in moving the ball around. Very often the two wing backs were right at the midfield line waiting for balls that never came or arrived too late. When de Jong was on in the middle there were little opportunities to play the ball in the middle and it was only when Clasie played in the Brazil game that one saw lots of midfield ball play and rotation (Wijnaldum probably received more passes in this game than all the other games combined). This aspect of a players game is difficult to change and it requires great confidence and ball handling speed to make these types of rotational passes.
It's definitely a stretch. I know I'm dreaming. But when look at the progress he made last season, it gives me hope. He is not going make his debut this season, I know that, but if his development continues like it is going now.. There is this small hope. BTW, Sneijder and VDV were physically more developed then Nouri at this age. It would unfair to expect the same from Nouri. I agree with you. Also, his decision making is also not great.. But I have the idea that Ziyech is allowed to be wasteful by Van Basten. I think all his flaws can be trained.. Even his physic. He can certainly become a great AM. Not sure if he'll wait for invitation from Oranje for long time. He has been ignored by the youth teams for a long time as well.
Hello DRB, and Abhirup, recognize you both from the other forum. My first post on this one. I'm okay with remaining with the 5-3-2. Its shown to be very safe defensively, and seems to fit Vlaar and DeVrij, and it I think there are some tweaks that could add to the offense: ---Replace BMI with someone who is better with the ball at his feet. Blind looked good in that role, or I have real hopes for Hendrix from PSV. Perhaps Rekik. If Blind comes inside, Willems could play wide. He is fast, and wants to go forward. ---Wijnaldum should eventually become more adventurous and offensive-minded. I think LVG had him playing defense first. But as he gets more experience and acclimated to the game at that level, he'll push forward. ---Strootman will bring more offense, and he'll get forward. ---Agree that Robben needs to stay. He looks like he has several years left. ---Would like to always see Kuyt on the right side unless its late in the game and you are simply looking for defense. Agree that there was nothing that I saw in the WC which indicated that he needed to retire.
Right now, the NT to beat is Germany. What is it that could potentially place us far below them?. I think the answer is the midfielder. They have Kroos, Schweinsteiger, khedira and Ozil to create football and to put rivals against their backs. We had Nigel, Wijnaldum and Sneijder, very good players but not that suitable to play possession and, therefore, the DUTCH style. Wijnaldum doesn't have the vision nor the technique to open the field with a long range pass as Kroos can do, De Jong doesn't have the power to push up forward and end up in scoring position as Khedira can, and Sneijder is a perfect player to counter attacks teams but not to maintain possession or run past players like Ozil (sometimes) is able to. Hence, the task that need to be accomplished first by Hiddink is to define what the style of play is going to be, and then, and only then, pick up the players suitable for that purpose. As an oranje fan, I always loved and enjoyed the possession style. With that in my mind I would say give me Strootman anytime anyday, I hope he is recovering well because we need him desperately (this is my point of view). He could be very well complemented by a box-to-box player as Van Ginkel. He took a very wrong decision by going to Chelsea. Whether or not he will be able to overcome this bad career decision remain to be seen. I like Clasie a lot, I think he is the most similar player we have of Xavi, but he lacks consistency and dominance. There are huge gaps within a game where he goes totally unnoticed. He needs to work on that very hard and I'm not quiet sure if the Eredivisie can help him for that matter. De Guzman isn't oranje material, Fer is a good substitute but not more than that, and that's it. Maher could be relocated to DM and see how it goes but first he needs to adjust his attitude, he needs to become a winner, not the loser he is today. Ayoub, Ake and Vilhena are good prospects but since this tread is about the Euro 2016 I pull them out of the equation. I don't think they will be ready for the occasion by that time.
Vlaar cant play football and with de Jong we have an equally good player able to intervene, tackle and clean up. With this back 3 we have 3 footballers.
willems is very good for psv, before he got injured he actually would track back, make great runs, his teamwork with depay was great, if depay cut inside, willems overlapped to pull a defender and give space for a shot, if depay went wide, willems would see that hole inside and pop in, and if i need to trust someone to score a shot from there, willems over blind let me explain I would like the team to vary their attacking emphasis to become unpredictable. Ajax 1995 had it where overmars and george hug the touch line spreading the opposing back four. meaning between the centerbacks and full backs was a space, for a runner to come inside and unleash a shot, with some pass and layoffs with the center striker or playmaker. i trust willems to make a better shot and score over blind. Furthermore under guardiola and barcelona, they had a 4-3-3 that was a hidden 3-4-3 where the defensive mid, busquets would pull back in the center while the centerbacks spread wide, the front three, would play compact leaving the wing open for alves, or adriano to beat the opposing winger, and create a man advantage. I want the dutch team, to use passing, and smart play to vary where they attack, center, right and left, and how, to confuse opposing defenses. we need to create a man advantage, and increasingly i see less and less players who have the skill to shake off their marker, we got depay, krishna, nouri possibly, some other players i haven't really seen. I wonder what hiddink will do with the team and what formation. and who is available, i would like to play a 4-3-3 thats a hidden 343 but most likely we either play 4231 or 3-5-2 even a 442 but hiddink has usually been a safe coach.
What also works well is benefiting from lazy number 10's of the opponent. If van Ginkel is ordered to mark him and allowed to make decisions to go deep at certain times, especially second half when his opponent is tired, then van Ginkel will create/make a goal with an infiltrating run into the final third. That being said, van Ginkel and Stroot do not promote intricate passing, triangulation and high ball circulation. Neither are they able to turn away from their marker and shake them really off. They must be used in the system van Gaal has enrolled during the WC but also before that at times. Reactive football with provocative pressing, waiting for the mistakes, then quickly coming out on the break and scoring from that. I remain of the opinion that MvG is able to play on 10. It's a different 10 than Sneijder. It's a 10 that U17 used during the Euro when they reached the final vs England. Schuurman played that role. Both Nouri an van de Beek played more behind him and Schuurman played more deep. Van Ginkel can do that even much better and Clasie is the perfect behind him to send him away. Stroot balances everything. Looks like this: It's that Mou gives Ginkel, the Mikel treatment and kicking out some natural tendencies that make Ginkel so interesting. Most vertical player we have produced in years. All that is wasted with him sitting deep tackling and giving uninteresting passes. So that role (if he is able to get a first 11 spot at all) is not building him well towards such a position in the Dutch NT.
Mascherano is not tall either and has played in defense also at Barca I think. I remember Nigel vs Germany at Euro 2012 where he basically acted as a defender at times and he was stunning. Best player for Netherlands that game. He is slow though. That would be an argument to stick with Vlaar. Vlaar is among the fastest players we have. Blind is dependable option, but Willems promotes more ambitious football for me, while Blind remains a "made" back, rather than being a natural one. He has a good mentality, so in the end he could still keep ahead of the rest on basis of such a factor. We will see.
im just assuming blind will play somewhere for holland i see the benefits of blind and kuyt is it gives you 5 or 6 substitutions instead of 3
In the great realm of things, Blind is not good enough as a back or as a midfielder for the Dutch NT, especially having in mind where the Dutch NT should want to grow towards. Just like his dad was not able to win the competition from Koeman, Daley should not win the competition on the back position or midfield position from specialists. If he is able to win, then that says something about the quality of the Dutch NT. He is a dependable player with nice football skills and a professional attitude. For the sake of Dutch football I hope we will top that soon.
I think we should build towards a midfield where we use Stroot, Clasie and Ginkel (if their club performances allow this). I can live with Blind over Willems. Not a hot issue for me, on the contrary. Blind's professionalism will trickle down into the group and have a general positive influence on the team first atmosphere in the group. Willems is different in this regard and will add few/no points to the group process.
i agree, but his father will be the coach. Thats a tough choice to make if your danny blind. I think after hiddink we might need someone else as coach. and the knvb should have cruyff overhaul youth development. Thankfully we have straatvoetball and hopefully more futsal.
Yeah I post with 2016 in mind, after that we will underperform under Blind senior as his coward attitude will rub off to his players. Such a pity a WC goes wasted.
a lot can change in 4 years, for sure though, i'm glad we have a tricky and tough euro qualifiers, we should beat these teams, but it will challenge the players to be creative and find a solution to cracking them down. instead of relying on counter all the time. who knows maybe blind learns to play better at barcelona, or depay stars at man utd, for now, the czech republic game i'm interested to see our formation. i assume 4-2-3-1 --------------------krul------------------- janmaat------de vrij-----vlaar-------bmi -------------------------------------------- ---------n de jong-----blind-------------- robben----------sneijder------------depay -------------------------------------------- -----------------rvp----------------------- I would play simply because its worked the system, and can't make too many changes. plus, strootman isn't back yet, van ginkel isn't a sure thing, willems too needs more exposure, for now we need to continue on and make small tweaks to build toward euro 2016 ------------------gk----------------------- -------------------------------------------- -------de vrij-------ndj-------kongolo---- -------------------------------------------- janmaat-----------------------------blind ------------clasie-----------wijnaldum--- --------------------depay----------------- -----------robben------------rvp---------
before i forget, this euro weather won't be as big an issue as brazil, so fitness won't eliminate better teams like the previous world cup where the weather almost claimed us, almost claimed germany twice, claimed spain, italy, england, portugal, and a few others. plus france is smaller so travel and jet lag will be less. We know it's in france, we know it's 24 teams, there will be a round of 16 so it's important to pick a good hotel location, and to make sure we build slowly in the tournament. instead of starting with a bang and fading. I like our odds to win the euros. Although i think france, germany and spain will be our biggest rivals for that crown, we should avoid them in the group stage though, and round of 16 as long as we finish first, easily we can get a third place team in the group so no true tough games until quarters
Winners of the group play 3rd place team, runner ups play each other, France is group leader, plus 5 others, lets use fifa rankings and make some assumptions Germany, Holland, Belgium, Spain, and Switzerland be group top seeds that leaves england, portugal, italy, denmark, croatia, greece as second tier teams, then we get joke of 3rd pool and 4th pool teams. best case scenario win group play iceland, romania, scotland level, second in group scenario could be bad, maybe a portugal, maybe an italy. The euros have been diluted in quality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016
I would LOVE to see how Nigel De Jong fares in the back three. It will be an interesting experiment. I am not so sure that Kongolo is ready for prime time in 2 years time. The potential is definitely there, I am so excited for him. But I hope Hiddink takes his time slowly integrating Kongolo to the system... builds up his mental and confidence. He hasn't yet a full season under his belt, a lot to proof at the club level at this point. In the mean time and for the next 2-3 years, Vlaar is/should be the leader in the backline. He's mature, experienced and well-tested playing against some of the top strikers in England. So my trio would be De Vrij - NdJ - Vlaar. A pretty balanced combination methinks. As it was already mentioned above, Vlaar can compensate the speed of Nigel and De Vrij, or lack thereof. Pasca 2016, when Vlaar is slowing down, let's bring in Kongolo and Rekik to the mix. Both youngsters should have a foretaste by then of what it's expected of them.
Problem of Nigel as CB is that the defence will be very exposed on aerial balls. Neither De Vrij or Kongolo are great in that aspect for me, Vlaar is very important for that. Also I want to know why you guys continue with RVP ? I was his first fan but obviously we have to admit that he is a problem for NT. One good game against Spain will not delete 9 world cup games without a goal. The fact there is no other good striker in Holland currently is another problem, but still better to use Depay or Robben as false striker for the moment. Waiting for Kishna or Zivkovic to take the spot later.
You kind of answer your own question.. We don't have anyone to replace him. And in 433 Robben has to on the wings. Depay is not a striker. It has to be Kishna, but he won't be ready to replace RVP anytime soon.