Wynalda discusses referees and players

Discussion in 'Referee' started by IASocFan, Sep 23, 2003.

  1. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Eric Wynalda's latest column,

    Eric discusses Earnie, then gets into referee/player issues. Should MLS refs slow things down when giving cards, and are they being pressured to get the game done on time?

    They do need to handle dissent better.

    COMMENTS?
     
  2. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that they need to handle dissent more strongly. It is getting worse and quickly. I have MLS Shootout, so I see most of the games and it has gotten really bad over the last few weeks. Far worse than at the beginning of the season.

    I realize they are adults and I definitely put up with a little more in adult games than I do in youth. But there is a line that should anyone cross, they're getting booked. These guys in MLS are SO FAR over the line I generally use, that you can't even see it in the distance. Surely, they are going too far even for the professional level.

    I don't think that slowing things down for giving cards should affect TV time. If you need to slow it down for match management purposes in order to give a card, that's part of the match -- not something that would cause more added time. I think that it would be worth a try to see if it calms things a bit.

    But you'd want to make it clearly known throughout the league that players will be pulled aside for issuing cards. That way everyone on both teams would expect it and it would be easier for the referee to facilitate.
     
  3. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Jul 9, 2000
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One of the reasons Paul Tamberino was MLS Ref of the year so often was that he talked to the players. If the situation warranted it, he pulled them aside and calmed things down. I've attended many re-cert and training courses with Paul, and he always emphasizes that man management is just as important as game management.

    Watch an EPL game and notice how the refs all take their time when issuing cards. I agree with Wynalda that simply throwing a card in a players face is a provocative act and does little to diffuse the situation.

    By the way, I agree that the red card on Kamler was harsh.
     
  4. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    Claymore beat me to it, as I too was going to bring up the EPL. There is a reason soccer is so beautiful and games managed so well in England. There are reasons Collina and Denouncourt receive such high praise. Refereeing is not as difficult as we think it is! We have all the tools to do the job correctly, all we have to do is employ them. Collina, Denouncourt, EPL refs -- they all keep the game simple. If you break it down to basics, here's all the referee really has to figure out:

    Was the contact a fair charge? If not then,
    Did it prevent the opponent from being able to play the ball fairly? If so then,
    Does the team have a greater advantage to keep going than stopping the game? If yes, no whistle. If not, stop the game.

    The rest is simply communicating what you are seeing and calling to the players. If somebody gets out of line and you can't talk them down, they need a caution. If they do something that threatens the safety of the other players or some other terrible act, remove them from the game.

    Refereeing only becomes complicated when we decide to make it complicated. We start having self doubt or overreact to a situation. We let players talk us into believing things that aren't true. We brand players as either good or bad just by how we think they will play after a first impression. We take the comments from the sidelines as personal and let it affect our calls, even if subconsciously.

    For some reason, the majority of MLS referees fail to see the simplicity of the game. Maybe it is inadequate training, but I think a lot of it has to do with politics. They are promoting referees and pushing them along before they are ready. A lot of referees strive to be national simply out of ego, to brag that they are national and the level of game that they referee. It is a dark fact that not many are willing to recognize. It is rare that a referee comes along who truly understands what football is all about.

    It always saddens me when I talk to other referees about the true spirit of the game, the passion behind it, what it truly means to be a referee -- only to have them look at me like I'm some sort of quack or that I'm over-philosophizing the sport. Because that is what it only is to them -- it's just another sport.

    I don't have the solution. I think the problem goes beyond simply showing respect or having better communication. It's something about the American society in general -- how we are all trained to think and act since birth. It somehow has become weak and unacceptable for people to have a bleeding heart, to truly and deeply care about the welfare of those around them. Referees need to learn it is ok to truly become emotionally connected to the game they manage, to genuinely feel for the players, and ultimately remember why we are out there.
     
  5. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm almost positive the red to Kamler will be shown as an example of what needs to be done. I honestly thought red right away on the Kamler play. For one, the bar was set on the Beckerman send off and second that challenge made contact above the knee. Players at that level need to have more control over their bodies. IMO, that challenge was certainly excessive.

    I've actually been trying to slow down the game when I show a card. I think it helps, but there are a number of cases where a quick card is absolutely necessary. It's hard to tune the people skills though.
     
  6. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    AMEN, Brother. I'm not sure that the EPL referees don't have some detractors and problems, too. But seeing a well played and reffed game is a thing of beauty.
     
  7. TomEaton

    TomEaton Member

    Mar 5, 2000
    Champaign, IL
    I agreed with Wynalda that the red to Kamler was too harsh. I disagreed that the others were (Beckerman's was questionable, but I understood the decision). That isn't really the point. I think why he caught so much flak was because he pointed to a couple of questionable calls and then concluded that the referee was ruining the game. If that was the standard, then EVERY game would be ruined.

    Incidentally, other than the Kamler red, and one other foul he didn't call, I thought Alex Prus called a very good game. I don't like it when referees are afraid to make important calls like penalties or red cards because they might be accused of affecting the outcome; NOT making the calls affects the outcome just as much.
     
  8. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The funny thing to me about the critcism of the referee was that all three guys were lauding Prus before the Kamler red. Kamler could have broken a guy's leg in half and that's harsh? I'm annoyed that they pick one easily justifiable decision and then rail the guy for the balance of the match.

    I believe that clip would have gone out to MLS referees with commentary saying the Kamler challenge has to be a red.
     
  9. jc508

    jc508 New Member

    Jan 3, 2000
    Columbus, Ohio area
    I have to agree with billf. There are times when a card needs to be pulled quickly and firmly to deter retaliation by the victim.

    There are other cards that can be given in a more casual, conversational manner. Persistent infringement comes to mind as being one of the latter and it deserves explination to the player why he is getting the card.

    But too much conversation is not fair to the rest of the players, who deserve to get the game going again as soon as possible.

    Perhaps some will want to have due process and legal representation to advocate their position when "discussing" whether he/she should get a card or not. That will be a sign for me to hang up the whistle when that happens!
     
  10. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that I thought Prus overall generally called a good match. He made some controversial decisions, but since when does a ref NOT make any controversial decisions. The announcers went WAY overboard in castigating Prus in that game. It really upset me and took away from my enjoyment of the game itself (not that the game was any great shakes).

    And that was a great post earlier on about refs sharing a passion for the beautiful game, and how that would help them become better refs.

    Almost made me want to become a ref myself. ;)

    Disappointing that more refs don't feel that way, and I agree it's at least due in part that a) we don't care as much in American about anything as much as we used to and b) we don't live in a true soccer culture, however you define it.
     
  11. phills

    phills Member

    Nov 24, 1999
    I'm almost positive the red to Kamler will be shown as an example of what needs to be done. I honestly thought red right away on the Kamler play. For one, the bar was set on the Beckerman send off and second that challenge made contact above the knee. Players at that level need to have more control over their bodies. IMO, that challenge was certainly excessive.
    ______________________________________________________________________________________
    i think the refs who gave the reds to kamler and beckerman was card happy.. I saw the same plays in the dc game. Quintinalla did the same tackle as beckerman and just got a warning no card and then someone else did it and got a yellow. i think the refs need to be consistent all around....
     
  12. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, you're never going to get robot referees. Each ref is going to call thing a little differently and sometimes each game requires a adjustment. Perhaps Prus went red on each of the two plays because video of the incidents you described was sent to the referees.

    What I find interesting about the game last week is that MLS fans often complain plays like the ones described are not dealt with harshly enough. When we have a situation when they are dealt with appropriately, fans, and some referees, still take issue with the decision.

    During the last few weeks, I've also witnessed a few send offs in the EPL that were comparable with those from last Thursday.
     
  13. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I usually find that our team had harsh red cards and their team should have been carded - they're getting away with murder. :)
     
  14. Leighs_babe

    Leighs_babe New Member

    May 19, 2003
    north dakota
    As I have read a all of this thread. I just think that if any or all of you were referee's there would be as many different opinions on the field as there is on this chat board. So if we have 10,20,30,1000 different opinions then why is it that we as people want to comment on things that we had no control over. Yes the same situations were done previously in previous games, and yes nothing was done or maybe a caution was given. But stuff happens. we do not know what was said done or actions before the first situation with beckerman. Secondly if you look at the stats the NE player has only been here for about 3 weeks and is at present time one of the league leaders in fouls suffered ... HHHHmmmm wonder why??? Secondly well for those of you that think the Kamler was harsh. those types lead to more serious plays. And I know for a fact that all they will do is make a video and show only the situation just before impact and send that out to the states and use it at National camp and you will not see the situation where Kamler is looking up at the ball. If is unlucky but it happened and at least Prus did call it. Wynalda would have (when he was playing) raised 45 minutes of shite with the referee if he did not send the guy off it he A) received a challenge like that or B) one of his teammate did. I can tell you this much after talking with one of the referees from the game thur night (DC vs NY) Mr Prus was worried before the game that he was going to have a discussion with Mr Wynalda and he did not want that. As we all know opinions are like bellybuttons we all have them and they are all different.

    Notice no one has said anything about the 2footed tackle by Pablo. Dirty very dirty. ANd Mr Harkes says that this challenge is not a Send OFF. Maybe he should use his TV production to get them to show him the 3 or 4 angle or ask the player why he has 16 studs bruised in his stomach???

    And as far as dealing with the players like they do in the EPL or Collina or Danacourt. As Collina has said more then 1 time he has an advantage over the US referee's in the MLS .. He does nothave the poor college influence as we do and Our society allows this type of disrespectful nature. THe EPL and Seria A, Bundishliga do not allow that to happen.
     
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And what made it all the more appalling is that, IIRC (and I better not be wrong, because my whole post is based on this :) ) Pablo already had a yellow. The CR just gave a 2nd yellow for that, not a straight red.

    Harkes started the year pretty well, but somewhere along the line, the Fox guys got the notion that a) every match has to have "controversy" and b) that controversy has to be a refereeing decision.
     
  16. Leighs_babe

    Leighs_babe New Member

    May 19, 2003
    north dakota
    Super dave your correct about the 2nd yellow card. But he said he did not even think it was a 1st yellow card. THe AR chose to only have a 2nd yellow card and not the red card since the end result was playing short.
    I agree that they are always trying to cause controversity. And the opinions that he projects are obvious a detriment to the game.
     

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