promotion and relegation*

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by MetroZebra, Jul 27, 2002.

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  1. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It doesn't prove your point because Garber mentions it at least once every time he is on air.

    P.S. NHL is mor popular than MLS and if someone out there is thinking about pro/rel for NHL, what does that say about MLS......
     
  2. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with a lot you are saying. But why delve into the old "what works in Europe doesn't work here" small cars, Guiness, The Office, reality television, Monte Python, et al. immediately refute that point.

    It drives me nuts that a lot of MLS owners are big supporters of globalization, political conservatives, and free market types, that just can't seem to acknowledge what a dramatic success the meritocracy of open leagues has been to soccer. Add up all of the great open leagues in the soccer world and the NFL pales in comparison.

    Monopolies and entitlements are never abandoned willingly. This league was designed as a fortress against relegation. A few owners have all but said that you'll have to pry the attendants to the closed league - salary caps, etc, - from their cold dead hands.

    The thing they fear the most: the success of an open league system in America.

    Since when is meritocracy, promotion, and advancement based on quality of play not a cultural value in this country?
     
  3. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://therecord.blogs.com/blogovich/2006/12/relegation_syst.html
     
  4. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can somebody explain to me how stating the obvious - that we don't have pro/rel in this country yet - is somehow an argument against it?
     
  5. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    it's only 2 years and 3 months ago. What proves your point?
     
  6. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most excellent point.
     
  7. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It should also be pointed out that the author of the linked article admits that he is not a fan of hockey, so that right there eliminates that it is a sentiment being expressed by hockey fans. It's just a soccer fan spouting off about how he thinks NHL could do better.
     
  8. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the real reason is because most MLS fans like other US leagues are not really soccer fans they are MAJOR league sports fans. Once pro/rel would be implemented in MLS, the team that would go down would probably lose half of it's fans, which brings up the other argument are they "real" fans of their soccer clubs or just "band-wagon" fans.

    What is the problem of having a two game relegation playoff between the worst team in MLS and the best team in NASL. A MLS team has two games to prove themselves that they are quality material for MLS. also counting the whole season.

    MLS excuse for years during international tournaments is our players are tired and it doesn't mean anything. bullshit CCL is way more important than MLS Cup and that's what US soccer has to say and get thru to some of the thick-headed MLS fans.
     
  9. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I'll ignore your first point cause it has been beat to death.

    As to what I quoted, while I don't disagree that CCL SHOULD BE way more important,

    if you look at the rosters sent out by both MLS and Mexican squads, it would tell you otherwise.
     
  10. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll ask you the same question I ask every Sounders supporter:

    As a supporter of an MLS club that is getting world class support, do you approve of league controls, under the single entity model, that prohibit the full use of that support to better the team?

    How can you subscribe to a league that limits your club by enforcing mediocrity to achieve relative parity? Don't you think that limits quality of play, and hampers them on the international stage?
     
  11. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fact that no US club has won on Mexican soil, despite the fact that Mexican clubs don't even field their top players, should tell you even more.
     
  12. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    It tells me that our league has inferrior players, and that our bench is worse than their bench. I AGREE.

    what it doesn't tell me is how pro/rel would correct this problem.
     
  13. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    That's just because MLS sucks and entire CONCACAF sucks other than Mexicans clubs.

    look at the rosters sent out by Mexicans to Copa Lib.

    If MLS become good enough, at least we'll see great intense rivalry between MLS side and Mexican side in CCL like what we see in US vs Mex on international side.
     
  14. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Problem is, MLS is built to be a crap shoot, with artificial limits on salaries and squad sizes. Any MLS owner would be a fool to expose herself to relegation in this exhibition system.

    These restrictions also make an incremental transfer to promotion/relegation impossible. Fan support cannot be translated into a better club - a primary reason MLS can't capture the imagination of the average US Soccer supporter.
     
  15. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pro/rel weeds out the crappy teams year after year. it gives incentive to owners to put more money towards the team because their is a risk factor getting relegated.

    Players are more motivated to play their ass off at the end of the season, instead of giving up at the end of the season because they have nothing to play for. The top half fights for the title, the bottom half fights so that they aren't the worst team.

    Why is Portland and Vancouver, the next expansion teams, I guess D2 is doing something right since they have produced such quality teams.
     
  16. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Promotion, relegation and fully independent clubs allow supporters to have a direct say in the quality of their team, no matter which division they play. Removal of the institutional blocks between leagues will immediately increase the supporter base in the lower divisions. A two or three year transfer process, beginning in the lower leagues, will result in second division promotion battles drawing more supporters than MLS clubs.

    Once the attendants of the closed single entity are removed (salary caps, squad size limits) our top clubs will be able to meet their Mexican counterparts on a level playing field for the first time.

    Watch the ratings rise....

    By the time the first MLS club is relegated, they will drop to a division that is more popular than MLS is today. That's how bad the current situation is.
     
  17. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I think pro/rel can really complete the picture.

    We'll have at least 20+ team divided into 2 tables.

    10-12 in each table.

    Top 1/3 fight for Conference championship which should lead to either CCL or Copa Lib in the future(replace SS), middle 1/3 fight for the playoff spots for the MLS Cup title, bottom 1/3 fight to survive in MLS.
     
  18. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's gonna take institutional reform, and MLS owners are not going to give up their monopoly without a fight.

    endorse the plan at www.soccerreform.us
     
  19. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    wow. the 2nd division in the US is going to be bigger than the current MLS? Meaning their worth will be between 40-100M and have national sponsors and be on ESPN? Holy, crap...how big will the first division be! All we needed to do was let minor league clubs in and we can get that big!!! tell me more!! Your plan says that we are going to have 180 teams, that is a lot of millionaires investing, have you already located these investors because the D2 almost collapsed recently due to hemorrhaging money, so finding another 150 or so investors should be no problem for you? Really?

    OK, so you want to 'reform' you have a site full of fantasy scenarios of Obama at the opening ceremonies of fantasy teams, so explain how this happens. How do you break up the entity with all of the media/sponsorship contracts (SUM) and thus open up the model, and this will somehow allow for hundreds of teams to spring up...including what what that....FC Brooklyn in a 45k SSS in the city? You essentially are say that minor league soccer in America is going to find about a billion dollars of investment in...how long was your fantasy scenario on your site? 2013? Three years.

    OK, so lets say we waive our magic wand and SUM is gone, the stockholders are done with all this 'making money' stuff and your internet campaign scared them too much. It is gone, MLS LLC is broken up to 16 individual clubs. We have a D2 with teams near bankrupcy whose worth is 1% at best of MLS clubs, and after that you have nothing but amateur clubs and guys just playing warm up games between their college season. OK, so explain to me where you get the 180 clubs, the 45k SSS, a 2nd division bigger than MLS, and about a billion dollars investment into 2nd 3rd and 4th division soccer in America. I would honestly like to see how you think this is going to happen in the next 36 months.
     
  20. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Good, somebody already started similar thing. I was thinking about petition to FIFA.

    Fans should united and petition to FIFA. Tell it to pressure USSF and MLS, not to give World Cup until firm promise from USSF/MLS. Just like we got the World Cup 94 with promise of MLS. I think FIFA's pressure is vital.
     
  21. PhantomTollbooth

    PhantomTollbooth New Member

    Jul 20, 2004
    Appleton, WI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Just ask Leeds... oh wait, their fan support should have translated into a better club because there is pro/rel in England...
     
  22. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    if a club sucks for long period of time, it don't matter whether there is pro/rel or whether the club in D1 or where ever, you lose fans.
     
  23. PhantomTollbooth

    PhantomTollbooth New Member

    Jul 20, 2004
    Appleton, WI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Agreed. What I found amusing in the original post was

    "Fan support cannot be translated into a better club - a primary reason MLS can't capture the imagination of the average US Soccer supporter.

    Fan support has nothing to do with how good your team is. There's plenty of well-supported teams that stink. Look at the Cubs for much of their existence. Another example -- the Green Bay Packers -- sold out every weekend and still stunk for the better part of 20 years.
     
  24. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This doesn't make sense at all. As a Duke fan, I know that we, along with UNC, are the biggest draw in college basketball, both by lovers and by haters. This, despite the fact we have only 6,600 undergrads.
     
  25. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hypothetical, ok if a NASL team wins the open cup they qualify for CCL..right..what will happen if a NASL team wins CCL, what will that prove to MLS?
     

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