Spaghetti Weston: McKennie at Juventus

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by hokeydokey, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. bakerkdb

    bakerkdb Member

    Sep 6, 2010
    Club:
    Norwich City FC
    Bielsa was incredibly popular with Leeds fans but he got fired. Fired for getting similar results that Marsch was getting albeit with worse players. Worse players, same results. You only get so long in a results business to get something going before they need to move on.

    Summerville scored an 84th minute winner against Bournemouth and an 88th minute winner against Liverpool. Take away those two very timely Summerville goals and you'd have to go back to August for a win. In fact if not for those two goals Jesse probably would have been gone before January window. His tenure at Leeds was not good. They have good players and I think they will escape relegation but Jesse dug them a hole.
     
  2. RecLeague Super Sub

    Fulham
    United States
    Jun 5, 2019
    Firing Jesse was the right call. His recent record was comparable in many ways to the final season of Bielsa, and worse in some ways. It would not look good if JM was doing just as poorly as Bielsa at the end, and they kept Jesse regardless.

    Keep in mind, the reason there is so much love for Bielsa is not just because he lifted them out of the lower leagues, although that is the primary reason for his deification. It is also because the Leeds fans saw him implement a system and an organization that they grew to understand and recognize; it was one that allowed players of limited quality to overcome and succeed. This is not me speaking, this is what I have heard from Leeds fans and podcasts like the Square ball.
    Towards the end, the system broke down and/or got found out by opposition, and Bielsa and the team struggled horribly, letting in goals like crazy. His firing was justified.

    With Jesse, the team is struggling with points all the same this season, and the key difference is the fans do not see a clear system, or a clear organization, and honestly, neither did I.
    I know the Red Bull way is helter skelter to an extent, but it is supposed to have some rhyme and reason, some coordination. It was not there. Either Jesse did not convey it to the players well, or they did not take that info on, or Jesse's system may have relied too much on firing up players with rah rah speak, with no substance. idk.
     
  3. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Yeah - and it seems sometimes playing style may create higher than real xPoints - from the eye test, it's clear that Marsch's teams create lots of good chances that they can't convert as well as lots of great chances for opponents that they can't stop.

    Also from the eye test, Fulham seems a much more cohesive and quality team from front to back - and by xPts should be below Leeds. Fulham seems to be clearly outperforming expectations and their quality - but for this season the stat seems sorta meaningless even if they will probably crash to earth next season. Being forged by Championship title and maintaining mediocrity in the PL over time are probably very different challenges.
     
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  4. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Who had the worst players? Leeds spent for Jesse so that's not entirely a great defenses is it?
     
  5. Dizi

    Dizi Member

    Feb 13, 2015
    Club:
    DC United
    Paired with Wober Koch has been good. At least good enough to
    It was a very complex problem. Some of the players began regressing even under Bielsa but the memory of their performances and potential led Marsch down a dangerous path.

    The Board finally opened their wallets a bit more for him but the additions (especially last summer) only papered over some of the holes in the squad. JM was incapable of working the same magic with Bielsa's players and nobody in the brain trust seemed to grasp it until now...Either Bielsa should've stayed, a different manager than Marsch replaced him, or a major overhaul of the roster should've begun last window and continued into January.

    Instead they dealt Marsch the same hand with a few wildcards thrown in and he rarely got it all working as planned
     
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  6. MayaDempsey

    MayaDempsey Member+

    Jul 29, 2014
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    8 minutes before the Summerville goal against Liverpool…

    “CHANCE! Bamford takes a terrible first touch in the Liverpool box to spurn a glorious opening. Summerville plays him through on goal and he only needs to take a touch and fire at goal. However, he allows the ball to evade his control and his eventual strike is charged down by Henderson.”

    It seems pretty clear to me that Jesse wasn’t on the good end of the uncontrollable things that happen in sports, despite the timely goals you mention.
     
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  7. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Per the bolded text above, I think this a key to a lot of defective team play. As they say, "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" per RW Emerson and he deemed such consistency "foolish." Soccer played with massive technical skill but lacking change in pace is both boring and defeatable. Recall ManU during the van Gaal coaching years. Most good attackers have some form of excellent change of pace. So do most good teams. Many teams would do a lot better if unpredictable change of pace became part of the team's normal operating mode. Change of pace can't occur easily when the operating mode is fixed at "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" mode. Bielsa and Marsch seem to have a difficulty in that respect, per @uniteo's suggestion.
     
  8. Roblar

    Roblar Member

    Sep 15, 2000
    The 73072
    ...but not the next season...
     
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  9. Roblar

    Roblar Member

    Sep 15, 2000
    The 73072
    I'm not sure it's that they play better against big clubs, but rather, they play better against clubs that have enough self belief / hubris to just play their game and try to attack the other team. Teams that sat back and tried to counter did well against Leeds. Leeds were built to play against teams that try to play positively. Jesse probably needed a plan B for the teams that sat back and absorbed...
     
  10. MayaDempsey

    MayaDempsey Member+

    Jul 29, 2014
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Life on a razor’s edge with a team like Leeds in the Premier League. If the linesman flags offside in the build up before the goal Sunday and VAR decides the penalty given West Ham wasn’t a clear and obvious error (or Struijk doesn’t commit two boneheaded fouls depending on your perspective) the perception of Marsch as a coach is still in the balance and Leeds are in 13th place and feeling pretty solid.

    Not as thin of a narrative changer as JT being short…but pretty thin gruel.
     
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  11. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    Marsch: We don’t have a good forward. We need to get one.
    Board: Any name?
    Marsch: There is a good one who I managed before and he is also a big Leeds fan.
    Board (excitingly): Give us the name!
    Marsch: Haaland.
    Board(disbelief): Get out!
     
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  12. aeschylusdanceparty

    NYRB
    United States
    Jun 3, 2021
    I mean, I think a lot will tell from his next stop in Europe. Crashed out at Leipzig and Leeds. Will his style play elsewhere? Can he adjust? A lot of thin margins to be sure, but he hasn't made it happen so far in the big boy leagues.
     
  13. MayaDempsey

    MayaDempsey Member+

    Jul 29, 2014
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Agree. Like any of us he needs a believable narrative. That gets tougher if the next stop is negative or ambiguous. From my perspective he’s had 2 good stops, 1 ambiguous stop and 1 complete flop. I hope it works out because I like him…and the reason I like him showed on Rodrigo’s face whenever they scored.

    On the plus side, he likely has some decent support from players and management despite the sacking. You’ve clearly covered the downside.
     
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  14. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    It's very hard to prove players have been trying to get rid of their manager by missing chances on purpose. It may even be a subconscious thing: they stop performing because they're unhappy with the coach's character, pedigree, country of origin, etc. but they're not doing it on purpose, they just feel demotivated.
     
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  15. bakerkdb

    bakerkdb Member

    Sep 6, 2010
    Club:
    Norwich City FC
    Bielsa clearly had worse players.
     
  16. Centennial

    Centennial Member+

    Apr 4, 2003
    Centennial
    Who is acting head coach? Chis Armas?

    That would give the Yank haters something to complain about.
     
  17. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member+

    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I heard on Sirius that Armas will be one of three people taking over as joint "head coach". Not sure how that works.?.?
     
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  18. Centennial

    Centennial Member+

    Apr 4, 2003
    Centennial
    Hope they beat Man U twice.
     
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  19. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I'm telling you: once a destroyer, always a destroyer. Armas took a page out of Ritchie's book and ankled him.
     
  20. Roblar

    Roblar Member

    Sep 15, 2000
    The 73072
    You mean like Raphinha and Phillips?
     
  21. bakerkdb

    bakerkdb Member

    Sep 6, 2010
    Club:
    Norwich City FC
    And the other 9 championship level players, yes
     
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  22. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Hey. At least McKennie was able to play for 1 American manager abroad. Very rare for Yanks!
     
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  23. gjackson2207

    gjackson2207 Member

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Two. Armas and Marsch.
     
  24. Dizi

    Dizi Member

    Feb 13, 2015
    Club:
    DC United
    I wasn’t sure how I’d feel but considering the timing I’m bitter enough to hope they get demolished

    Unless McKennie has a hat trick I don’t wanna see some dramatic turnaround as soon as Marsch gets booted.
     
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  25. Nastrabrahmus

    Nastrabrahmus Member+

    Mar 29, 2012
    San Diego, CA
    Rumor has it Wes ain’t happy with the bait and switch from ownership.
     
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