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Discussion in 'Referee' started by IASocFan, Jan 3, 2023.

  1. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Lahoz enlightenment is probably a chaotic situation not a peaceful one, one where he has to scream over people. Have him get interviewed on The View
     
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  2. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Have a good update from a bad experience last Friday I had with a local boys varsity HS game where I should have thrown the spectators out and the coach said he would "report my performance with game footage proof". The team had a handful of young refs at their club on it, and told one of my ref friends on Saturday (the day after) at state cup matches "how bad the refereeing last night" was.

    Well today I was officiating them (AR) at an away game. I talked to one of the kids before the match who is a ref who was one of the Saturday complainers and tried to have a small discussion about the game. He told me

    - after they watched the recording at practice Monday, basically everything I called and no-called was correct, even the no-call that would have given his team a PK at the end of the game that sent everyone into a frenzy saying how bad I am, and the coach basically shut up after watching it
    - agreed when I told him I should have thrown all their parents out near the end
    - agreed when I told him that I should have given his player a VC RC for a retaliatory tackle from behind he did after losing possession (the only reason I didn't is because the NISOA regional who it happened right in front of told me to "just give two yellows" for the tackler and the fouled kid who got up and pushed him, which I then had to explain to the fouled player's coaches who was not happy it was only a yellow), it would have been VC because it wasn't even an attempt at the ball he just wanted to pay the guy back

    And to put the icing on the cake, we were using radios on today's match and I told the CR to upgrade a DOGSO pull that he was going to give a YC for, which benefitted their team. After the game the coach told the AR2 that we did a fantastic job, but of course the CR will get the credit for my DOGSO call.
     
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  3. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    Amazing how wrong most people are in real-time about many calls. I thought my daughter dove last night in her high school game, but watching the video a minute later, I saw the contact

    Players, coaches, and parents going crazy over split decision calls need to be stopped. Good story, thanks for sharing!
     
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  4. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I think that we underestimate the value and importance of the on the job training we get as referees which creates a skill of seeing the brief contact that occurs between players. It is a skill that few of us had before we came to refereeing.

    As you may recall, I also officiate track & field. At the NCAA D1, professional and international level, I do long jump/triple jump. The board judge has to determine if the athlete's foot was across the foul line when they planted for their take off. Of course, they're sprinting when they come down the runway and the board judge isn't going to get more than a fraction of a second's view.

    At the NCAA national championships level, they will typically put a camera also looking at the board. A non-official with a laptop then sits next to you. They can replay the moment of contact for you at your request. One year, I'm the board judge and I'm just watching and raising the red or white flag. I think I went through a series of three or four jumps in a row that were close but I didn't ask to review any of them. The guy with the laptop, who'd been looking at the video without showing it to me, finally said, "Wow. You're good." I immediately thought, 'that's because I get all of that practice making those quick incident decisions as a soccer referee.' I have never been successfully protested on a foul/no foul decision.
     
  5. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    The funny thing I started thinking about is how the team would have reacted in watching the replay if I had given the last second PK that the referee player I talked to said definitely wasn’t a penalty, and they win the game because of it. Do they think “man I like this ref I hope we get him more often since he won us the game”, or do they say “this ref sucks and we don’t want him anymore since he sucks even though it benefitted us”.

    And in all honesty I was actually considering blowing the whistle, putting my arm up, pointing out, and then yellow carding the attacker for simulation but figured it wasn’t worth it since the game was over and I probably would have gotten physically assaulted
     
  6. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I love (laugh at) people commenting on MLS game calls online who say they were at the game and it was definitely a bad cal. I can't figure out how they think seeing it live trumps multiple video angles.
     
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  7. AZOldRef

    AZOldRef Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Apr 5, 2021
    Blue is on the short end of a 10-3 score in the final minutes. They empty their bench, a few kids who haven't played yet come on. As play resumes one of these kids has a thru ball come towards her and ... kinda sticks her arm out and makes contact. Opposing (winning) coach barks for handball, I wave it off. He starts up again, I give him a "Yea, probably. At 2-1 for sure. But at 10-3, with this little time lift, against that particular player, not happening" look. He thinks about it for a bit and returns a "yea, I get it" look back.

    Nice when sanity prevails.
     
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  8. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait, you mean the view from row 28 section 115 (corner of the field) ISN’T better than 15 yards away with an angle between players or watching multiple close up replays????

    Color me shocked. :)
     
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  9. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't find it, but I know there used to be a USSF Referee Code of Ethics. Part of it was not to publicly criticize other officials. My local USSF board would have had a "talk" with the HS players who were complainers and remind them of this.
     
  10. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I always assumed this was just an unwritten rule, mainly at the youth level where parent refs may be watching their kid play, don’t make negative comments about the ref. Or even if the kids playing are refs themselves. I didn’t realize it was real.

    Also I have discovered that the team is playing tonight at home where I could pass by and see the last 10 minutes of the game. Man I wish I could go there and just loudly and obnoxiously heckle everyone
     
  11. ptref

    ptref Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Aug 5, 2015
    Bowling Green, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why not call this? What message are you sending to the players? By letting this go, you are telling them it is OK to do that. And then when one of them does it the next game, and it does get called, they will be mad at that ref. You do a disservice to the players and the game by letting this type of thing go.
     
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  12. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    I’m okay with the no-call depending on the level. Probably want to avoid saying those words to the coach out loud. Better would have just been a “that’s not handling”
     
  13. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #38 AlextheRef, Feb 4, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
    My offseason training has been a bit more spotty than I had hoped for. Had to recover from a couple illnesses over the last two months that made training less consistent. Otherwise I've been getting the work in. I just started incorporating some faster running into my training as preseason is ramping up.

    I handled a hard VO2max workout yesterday pretty easily, which suggests I can run a 5K at a sub-6 minute mile pace. I'm pretty pleased with where my fitness is in the first week of February. My goal is to be one of the fittest referees among my competitors, and the hard work is hopefully paying off.
     
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  14. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another option is that you were blocked and didn't see it clear enough to call it. I have used that in similar situations.

    As far as teams thinking that's not handling in the next game, it only it were that simple that they paid that much attention to actually what happened instead of taking a similar but clearly different situation and twisting it in their favor the next game.
     
  15. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can thank my wife for some good things in my training since the start of the year. She went to a six-week boot camp challenge at a gym in town, and she raved about it. She's one who HATES going to the gym normally, but this place has daily programs designed for everyone who goes there. So basically you show up, look at the TV screen, and there's your workout. She recruited me to go with her one time, then for a week, and now I'm a member with her as well. We go at different times (me in the morning, her in the late afternoon), but we are doing the same workouts. Three days of lifting, three days of HIIT with a lot of bodyweight, rowing or bike, and core-based work. I've dropped close to 10 pounds after going for three weeks, and I like that three days of cardio are not putting miles on my legs while getting my heart rate up to where it usually goes in a soccer game.

    Now I just have to incorporate some additional running so my legs stay in condition for the running of a soccer game, but I'm starting to do that a lot more now.
     
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  16. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Just got onto the field for first time in 2.5 months in a 6A #3 v #4 tournament semi-final. Worked on what I needed to work on and had a pretty fantastic game from all accounts. Yellows when needed, diffused a potential fight using personality, a penalty and getting into position by reading the play well in advance. I kept thinking to myself... this was too easy but I realized I was getting to the spot of where I needed after reading positioning.

    Ended 3-1 with #4 upsetting #3 but if I had to say, it was probably one of my favorite games I've done and where a few veteran referees told me I did a near-perfect job.

    Good way to start 2023.
     
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  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Don’t think he said any words. He describes giving the coach a look. He was describing the message the look was intending to convey.

    As far as passing on the call, I do think it is very much an age/level/how blatant was it question.
     
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  18. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    After giving YCs using my new score sheet where I have to condense writing to basically a word but still be descriptive, and occasionally reading the La Liga official ref reports, I was thinking of all the YC UB situations there can be. Not sure if it belongs in this thread but maybe since it could help us and if people have more to add or feedback on ones I thought of

    Reckless
    - arm to head in regular play
    - aerial challenges (going hard thru back, arm to head, etc.)
    - reckless slide while challenging ball
    - late sliding after ball is gone
    - any other late challenge (ex. running into/thru player after they release the ball)

    SPA
    - handling shot on goal with or without pk
    - handling non-shot on goal
    - trip/push/hold in non-penalty area field of play
    - push/hold non-DOGSO when pk given

    Respect
    - players arguing/shoving each other
    - excessive holding

    I believe all the rest have specific individual bullet points under cautionable offenses in Law 12. Maybe I should start carrying that list around with my in my pocket on games.
     
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  19. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I could be wrong, but you may be overthinking this. What you need to record is directly related to what you are required to report. For HS here, that was east, as we don’t report cautions at all. :eek: For other games I do, for a caution, no one expects more than “USB-reckless” or “USB-SPA.”
     
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  20. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    We have more detailed expectations at all levels. Cautions are reported, as well as send offs, of course. Our website software (Soccer Central) not only requires the official rule book reason but also an explanation of what happened, theoretically in enough detail that someone who wasn't there will understand what happened. E.g. a coach gets a caution. UB. Yeah? Was that just for a player with jewelry, or are we talking something more serious like leaving the team area?
     
  21. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I was the referee on a meaningless Adult State Cup game on Sunday. With about 8 minutes left in the game, white had a corner kick and two players, #30 blue and #6 white, were putting their arms on each other and smacking them away. I held up the corner to talk with them. They come over, yell and bitch at me about each other then walk away... Mentally I'm going,"Uhhh, my turn?" I bring them back and when they object that I'd just spoken to them, I say, "No you came over and yelled at me. Now it is my turn. The arm up isn't too much as long as he's not using it. I can't have you smacking it away got it?" Of course they didn't. Hell, 42 blue tried to step in to change the marking but 30 wasn't having it. 6 white bends his arm on the initial kick and because he's ~8 inches taller it is by 30 blue's head. 30 blue doesn't like that and lines up 6 white on a recycled cross and runs from 3 yards away to try to undercut 6 white. Whistle, foul, YC for 30 blue, "Yes it is a penalty kick." I'm standing near the penalty spot when instinct kicked in that I was in the middle of a bunch of players and didn't have a view. I started to back out and looked to my right to find another small group of players having a verbal disagreement and blue's coach calling for a sub for #30. As I'm about to signal approval, #30 throws double barrel middle fingers at an opponent. Thankfully the opponents just stopped so the issuing of a red card was simple and there wasn't more fracas.

    In the debrief, and even before it, I knew that I could have avoided it in a couple of different ways, foul on white 6 coming out and nobody complains, the hard challenge by white 6 on blue 30 at midfield 5 minutes prior that I didn't call could have been an accepted foul and considering the game, should have been, or buzzing blue's coach when I saw 30 starting to boil a couple of minutes before the corner to let him know there might be a problem.
    As they say, "Hindsight..."
     
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  22. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Yeah mainly this is because my score sheet only has room for like a word and I want something descriptive enough to remember what exactly it was, especially if we end up giving a second caution and I have to write out an actual detailed send off report. But also I’m thinking if these just for general knowledge


    Exactly what I mean, and thinking of the specific UB spa/reckless/respect reasons can help with that
     
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  23. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Like many things, this comes with practice and experience. When someone is a young referee they have trouble remembering witch color is going which way. After some experience it is remembering that it is second half. Now, I point the wrong way maybe once in 25 games.
    I'm working on two things right now with an addendum. First, foul count, including team and individual totals. Second, whom has been issued a yellow card already with the addendum of what the card was for. To the second task I've started putting UB-S for SPA, UB-R for reckless, and (not that I've used it) UB-H for handling to stop a promising attack. I can usually reconstruct the match from there.
    I encourage you after every game to think about each yellow card, where on the field, what it was for, the score of the match, and if you're feeling ambitions the temperature of the match. If you can't remember, ask your crewmates to help you reconstruct the match. Additionally think try to remember any hard fouls that you didn't sanction with misconduct so you can talk about your decision.

    I know this is a lot to try to stuff in your brain, but it can be helpful and I'm still working on it as well and I've been doing this for a dozen years.
     
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  24. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Well see this is exactly what I'm trying to solve with this list I'm making. My old score sheet I used I had a long space for the reason and I ended up just writing gibberish thinking I needed a long explanation to remember. Since I made my new laminated score sheet, I started thinking about changing how I record to utilize it better, and I think that standardizing one word to write about which spa/reckless/respect infraction it was will recreate the situation for me which is why I'm thinking of it in the first place. But it's also why I think that rather than doing UB-S, UB-R, UB-H, I'll instead do something like SPA-HAND, SPA-SHOT, RECK-ARM, RECK-SLIDE, etc. because I feel it's more descriptive and paints a better picture to remember when reflecting.

    Yeah I usually do that to some extent.

    Luckily I pretty much never have a foul that I regret not giving a YC for since I pretty much nail it every time.
     
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  25. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    I take one preventative action on adult men's games.

    I don't do them.
     
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