Ukraine v Russia II

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by crazypete13, Apr 20, 2022.

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  1. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In Hungary, the government asked for the Soviet army to help put down a revolt.
    In Czechoslovakia, the Soviet army only showed up because of the Prague Spring. Apart from Yugoslavia and Albania, all of eastern Europe was under Soviet control without the army. IOW, the Soviet Union effectively controlled that territory. In the current case with Ukraine, Russia has not has effective control since 1990. Sure, you could argue that under Yushchenko, Ukraine was a Russian vassal, but since then they clearly are not.
     
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  2. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Ukrainian explosive experts have demined over 6000 hectares of land in the Kherson area since the Russians retreated over the river, finding 57,000 explosive objects.

    There are 880,000 hectares of mined land in Kherson. That means they only have 35-40 more years to go.
     
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  3. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    The Tor anti-aircraft missile system started to be fielded in the late Cold War, but has constantly been updated and the current Tor-M1-2U variant is capable and in heavy use by the Russians. A special version of that was adapted for use in the Arctic by placing it on the DT-30PM articulated vehicle. Only something like 12 of these exist. Very specialized, very rare. So it was quite a sight to see one of these being blown up two days ago in Ukraine.

    And even more of one to see a second blown up yesterday.
     
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  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I wouldn’t group Vietnam in that list seeing south Vietnam was under French colonial rule/occupation
     
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  5. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    ‘Maulhelden’ not following through on Panzer commitments much to German annoyance

    lol!

     
  6. So you're claiming the Cambodians were better off under the Red Khmer than under the protection of the Vietnamese?
     
  7. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV


    Not too surprising but still pretty ********ing disappointing. You really need a ********ed up world view for this to be your interpretation of the conflict and the weapon deliveries.
     
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  8. So it's a good thing then that he isnot allowed to decide the direction of the UK?
     
  9. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    I watched a Russian made move yesterday about a female sniper during the great patriotic war.
    Russian patriots vs Fascist Nazis.
    “The Battle for Sevastopol”
    All the Russian heroes were Ukrainian back then though.

    Typical Russian movie, probably made by the people who made todays misinformation videos. :)
     
  10. NGV

    NGV Member+

    Sep 14, 1999
    #7260 NGV, Feb 4, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
    I agree that it's relevant.

    To elaborate a little on the roots of the "Global South vs US Imperialism" idea, as it relates to Latin America: in the 1970s and 1980s, a lot of leftists worldwide became really interested in Latin American socialist revolutionary movements - including people who had little sympathy for the USSR and its government. This was because Latin America seemed like a place where revolution was springing up indigenously, in response to severe inequality, poverty and political repression - in contrast with the cold warrior propaganda that everything was a Soviet plot. Also, those conflicts seemed to provide a story with some moral clarity: struggling peasants and workers against military repression that was carried out on behalf of the economic elite, and backed by Uncle Sam. Supporting that may have been more appealing than trying to defend Soviet intervention in Czechoslovakia and so forth.

    This moral perspective was fundamentally accurate in a lot of ways- the murderous military (and military-backed) regimes in Latin America really were bad guys, and the fact that the USA supported them is a historical disgrace that shouldn't be downplayed or forgotten. On the other hand, people like Che Guevara and Daniel Ortega were not necessarily good guys (present tense in the case of Ortega). And overall, history rarely follows along with the idealistic narratives that we might apply to it. Instead of the triumph of revolution, post-Cold War Latin America got mostly flawed democracies where persistent poverty, inequality, and disenchantment coexisted with incremental (but eventually very substantial) social and economic progress. Clearly a better situation than the early 1980s, but not what people had mind when they chanted "hasta la victoria siempre."

    That's a big part of why the Zapatistas in Chiapas got so much international attention, despite being obviously a marginal force; it's also why Hugo Chavez attracted international admirers, despite being a despotic buffoon. For people who didn't want to part with the idealized story, they seemed to offer a post-Soviet do-over.

    Obviously, this narrative is ridiculous when applied to Russia, a repressive right-wing regime that's trying to make fascism and imperialism great again, with massive human costs. But the overall idea has a lot of appeal and staying power. And people have a natural tendency to try to fit a complicated and confusing world into frameworks that they're already comfortable with.
     
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  11. NGV

    NGV Member+

    Sep 14, 1999
    I'll also note that people like Lula or the ANC leaders in South Africa spent their formative political years being targeted by nasty US-backed dictatorships during the Cold War era.

    So, they may have some understandable personal reasons for not being inclined to buy into a worldview in which US power is righteous and just, and the USA as sole superpower is good for the world ("understandable" does not mean "objectively correct," of course).
     
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  12. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The economist on the oil sanctions for Russia


    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2...ons-on-russia-are-proving-to-be-underwhelming
     
  13. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    #7263 waitforit, Feb 4, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
    Go on Germany bully them

    Call them out we will stand by you

    So Russia will be forced to sell even more oil at discounted prices to the Chinese and Indians?

    How exactly is that not hurting Russia?


    The most irritating thing is S Americans or Africans or whatever is them parroting Russian talking points

    NATO has infringed on Russian wishes. NATO should go back to the 1997 borders!!!
    You don't say !!!!

    Listen here you dumb s*** of a ***** I wanted NATO. Russia does not dictate who the hell Romania has alliances with. We wanted NATO.

    Same goes for Poland Baltics etc

    Also does no one find it weird the only people who like Russians never had Russia as a neighbour. Is there a neighbour Russia didn't have a dispute with?

    EIther Russia is at fault or everyone else is crazy. Look at Poland. Historically speaking Germany did way more harm to them and yet they still hate Russia more. Wonder why
     
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  14. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is what you are reading? Do you know the history of that time?

    Look, when Pol Pot made his attempt to seize power, he formed an alliance with the Viet Cong. At that point, they were both fighting against Western power and influence. But Pol Pot also didn't have the equipment or supplies, plus he wanted to crush other groups trying to take power. And in a move of contradiction, one of those groups became the Viet Cong/Vietnamese. So the Pol Pot/Vietnam alliance disintegrated. They started shooting at each other, and, more or less, the Vietnamese said "It's not really worth our effort," and walked away.

    But, clearly, the end goal for both was a totalitarian "communist" state, and if the Vietnamese would have gained control, they would have killed Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. But Pol Pot knew this, and imprisoned/executed those allied/sympathetic to Vietnam.

    That is a very simple explanation.

    And I really would like read more on Pol Pot's early life (pre-Paris) and how that formed his ideology.
     
  15. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    his heart is in the right place but unfortunately he is incompetent on every level
     
  16. ??? Know...I lived as a you adult in those times, before you probably were born. I most likely have read/watched more and diverse sources about the Pol Pot regime, than you nowadays can access. In the 70ies what was going on in that region was constant dayly news on Dutch/UK and German television and in analythical political shows.

    I would call it a simplistic explanation.
    About Pol Pot enough has been written, but I've yet to see an explanation how someone who prior to his massmurder act was a gentle and sophisticated person turned into a monster.
     
  17. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Never said that. Just that Vietnam wasn’t doing it because the Khmer Rouge were killing Cambodians. They did it because the Khmer Rouge and Vietnamese started shooting at each other because one was pro-China and the other was Pro-USSR. Stopping the killing fields was just a side effect of inserting a Vietnam puppet government.
     
  18. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Economic front
    IMF predictions
    for GDP Advanced economies vs Emerging markets and developing economies. The Global South is growing at a faster pace while Russia will outpace many western nations in spite of the sanction.
    [​IMG]



    Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki admitted that anti-Russian sanctions have little effect on Moscow
    https://www.plenglish.com/news/2023/02/03/wests-sanctions-against-russia-have-failed-says-polish-pm/
    Quotes found on social media
    • What is striking is that Russia will develop faster this year and next than Germany. And this is despite the sanctions.
    • Firstly, Russia has learned to "circumvent" sanctions. Secondly, the prices of raw materials have jumped a lot. The Russian budget earns more even with smaller sales. This leads to a lower decline in GDP, a shallow recession,

    Germany
    's largest producers are ready to cut thousands of jobs and withdraw investments to the US, since Berlin "will not be able" to provide them with energy at prices that were Russian gas (De-industrialization)
    • "We are no longer competitive in Germany, but our investments for further growth will be directed to more competitive places, such as the USA," said Matthias Zahert, head of the Lanxess chemical company.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s?srnd=premium-europe&leadSource=uverify wall

    Sanctions on Russian crude oil have ‘failed completely,’ oil analyst says"
    -CNBC
    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/03/san...-have-failed-completely-oil-analyst-says.html

    US Attorney General Garland announces transfer of frozen assets of Russian businessman Konstantin Malofeyev to Kiev
    https://news.yahoo.com/us-allocates-5-4-million-222725750.html

    Turkish companies exported electronics, spare parts and other American-made goods to Russia, contrary to US sanctions and in violation of US export controls
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/russias-ukraine-war-effort-fueled-by-turkish-exports-11675447477

    Russia's largest liquefied natural gas producer, Novate is close to a deal to supply gas to GAIL (India) Ltd as it seeks alternative markets to Europe, three industry sources said
    https://www.reuters.com/business/en...s-gail-poised-seal-gas-sales-deal-2023-02-03/

    USA demanded Turkey to stop exporting goods to Russia
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...key-on-export-controlled-goods-sent-to-russia

    Indian refiners have started paying for most of the Russian oil purchased through Dubai traders in UAE dirhams instead of US dollars
    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/indian-refiners-pay-traders-dirhams-russian-oil-2023-02-03/

    Iran will help Venezuela end its dependence on U.S. refining technologies, State-owned companies of Iran and Venezuela will begin a 100-day reconstruction of the largest oil refining complex in South America in the coming weeks
    https://www.reuters.com/business/en...ning-complex-within-weeks-sources-2023-02-03/

    According to the US customs, Chinese state-owned companies provide Russia with technologies and equipment that are under sanctions and that the Russian Army needs in Ukraine. In particular, these are electronic warfare, parts for fighters and navigation equipment
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-aids-russias-war-in-ukraine-trade-data-shows-11675466360


    Diplomatic front
    US presses South Africa to submit to US sanctions against Russia. Media refer to US Treasury Secretary Yellen's delivery of this pressure as "charm" offensive.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/janet-...-about-breaching-russia-sanctions-11674828642

    "Iran's support for Russia could threaten Iran with sanctions and increased isolation"
    -Emmanuel Macron (what else can you throw at Iran??)
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/macro...-iran-nuclear-rush-in-meeting-with-netanyahu/

    Oh the French...
    The French Foreign Ministry accused Russia of a "neocolonial policy" in Africa
    • "Today, what we are seeing in Africa is the conduct of a neocolonial policy on the part of Russia, which specifically calls into question the sovereignty of states."
    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/france-hits-back-at-russia-over-african-colonialism-jibe/2804616

    The US has increased pressure on Libya and Sudan to "sever ties" with the employees of the Wagner PMCs.
    https://apnews.com/article/russia-u...a-government-b4218ab0163e6c5e271a3902cd893759

    According to Sol, Portugal PM Antonio Costa decided not to send the Portuguese Leopard 2 to Ukraine. The problem is also that, the newspaper notes, most of the tanks currently available in Portugal are not on the move due to the lack of spare parts
    https://sol.sapo.pt/artigo/791623/costa-bloqueia-tanques

    The first of Leopard tanks have left Canada for Ukraine


    German investigators have "no evidence at this stage" that Russia is behind the explosions at the Nord Stream 1 and 2 gas pipelines, the Public Prosecutor General Frank told Welt today
    https://www.welt.de/regionales/meck...ege-fuer-russische-Sabotage-an-Pipelines.html

    The Swiss Senate opposed the re-export of weapons to Ukraine
    https://www.1lurer.am/en/2023/02/04...d-idea-of-re-exporting-arms-to-Ukraine/875597

    Denmark is considering the possibility of acquiring 99 old Leopard-1 tanks, which were previously written off by the Danish MoD and send them to Kiev / 20 tanks will be repaired within 3 months, and another 40 may be ready for combat within 6 months
    https://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/v...-leopard-1-kan-deretter-bli-sendt-til-ukraina

    US ambassador’s views on Hungary ‘irrelevant,’ minister says
    • “It is completely irrelevant what (Pressman) or any other ambassador thinks about the domestic political process in Hungary, because it has nothing to do with him.”“It is not his place to interfere in Hungary’s internal affairs,”
    -Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto, with regards to Hungary's position on the conflict
    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...iews-on-hungary-irrelevant-minister-says.html
     
  19. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    This probably does more to demonstrate the limitations of GDP as a measure of economy than it does Russia's well being. When you stop making cars and appliances but spend as much making additional tanks and shells, the GDP stays the same, but the life of the average Russian gets worse. This also shifts the power dynamics in the country, as certain oblasts and republics are centers for certain kinds of industry, so power and money are shifting to the military industry ones and away from the consumer goods ones.
     
  20. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's also old data because the oil price cap which is very effective seems to not be part of the calculation. The developed countries are "circulating" around Russia's resources too and naturally the customer is stronger than the producer in this game. If the demand is lowered significantly, all the supply is worthless.
     
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  21. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    #7271 waitforit, Feb 5, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
    Too bad they didn't learn critical thinking in those years. If you learn that imperialism is bad and can't see imperialism when it is practiced by Russia you might be a stupid politician

    Russia invading Ukraine has nothing to do with USA. Ukraine being helped by USA again nothing to do with Russia being wrong. Russia saw Ukraine slowly not falling for their BS anyone and saw their influence dwindle and between that and Putin believing Ukraine belongs to Russia of course he attacked.

    Believing Russia invaded Ukraine because of NATO it is top grade bullshit and anyone believing that is as smart as the people saying covid is caused by 5G

    Russia is "afraid" of NATO in the sense they cannot bully those countries anymore not because NATO would ever attack Russia. The 2xTOR arctic version that were destroyed lately were near the Finish border

    Russia took troops and vehicles from NATO borders to fight in the war

    The sanctions are working and Russia is being hurt. You do not need to be an expert. Oil is being sold at steep discounts and Russia no longer sells gas through the EU pipelines. That is lots of money lost. Chinese and Indian companies making a shit load of money sure, Russia being f in ass also yeah

    This whole "Russia is fine sanctions do not work" is Russian backed dissinfo campaign for the gullible of the countries sanctioning Russia to put pressure on the gov to end them

    On top of that economists/analysts are having stupid takes again. Especially when some of the takes are based on what the Russians say. There was a lady I like who said: look in the past Russia published like 1000 economy indicators. Now they are down to less than 100.

    Also am sorry when is the last time economists ever got things right?

    Just look at the major predictions made during covid

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/pandemic-failed-economic-forecasting/629498/

    Seriously I am the kind of guy who as a rule believe the people in the field. I do not know climate chance but I trust the scientists. Neither a doctor and virologist but again trust the experts

    Not when it comes to economists. They know absolutely shit. Sure they can analyze stuff after the fact but predictions nah. Lucky sure good nope
     
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  22. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Also, if the sanctions currently don't work then that seems like more of an argument to tighten them and make them even more restrictive than to abolish them.
     
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  23. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...urrency-sales-to-offset-energy-revenue-plunge

    The Russian economy is fine!

    Sanctions have no impact and Russia could do this forever!!!
     
  24. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    They used to say that about the old Soviet Union too. Different times and different specifics, but same concept. They can't go on forever doing this. The only question is whether they can outlast the resolve of Ukraine, and of Western Europe and the US.
     
  25. The former Soviet Union collapsed under the burden of keeping up with the west's arms spending.
     

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