Has USMNT over-exposed MLS under Berhalter?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by adam tash, Jan 31, 2023.

  1. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    bringing a player into camp and not palying them or barely playing them is not giving a player a chance......giving arriola 50 caps is giving a player a chance lol (which he still hasnt come good on, btw)
     
  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    fair enough....I am happy to see that this recent jan camp had 9 foreign players (FINALLY!) I think an acknowledgement that fully MLS jan camps distorts the ranking of the player pool.

    jan camp sucks though....these players are out of form out of season...and under an interim coach in a short window is almost impossible to play well.....it's almst unfair to these players, imo.

    the injuries and domestic only camps do distort things somewhat but not nearly enough to justify leaving off solid contributors in Germany, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Belgium, etc consistently
     
  3. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like who?
     
  4. LuckofLichaj2

    LuckofLichaj2 Member

    Oct 14, 2021
    Gioacchini would’ve been better than Jesus and post-injury Morris.
     
  5. LuckofLichaj2

    LuckofLichaj2 Member

    Oct 14, 2021
    The biggest crime of all was thinking that Shaq Moore was ahead of Joe Scally in the pecking order.

    Scally was imperfect but competitive vs Morocco and terrible against Uruguay. That’s it. That’s what the sample size was. I’ll take that plus a weekly run against the Bundesliga vs. a guy who was barely treading water in La Liga 2 and not looking like Dani Alves in MLS.

    Zimmerman and Turner were perfectly justifiable. Jesus over Pepi was terrible. We’re so shallow at the 6 that Acosta wasn’t an error in judgement. Him at the 8 certainly is, but at the 6 there simply weren’t many alternatives. Cardoso? Tessman? No one has ever really trusted McKennie there and Musah switches off as often as an eco-friendly engine.
     
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  6. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    I did not, and do not, have a bad feeling about Berhalter's callups. That said, MLS players had a poor World Cup, both for the USMNT and seemingly with other teams. No one really made a mark. Some of that is just that more players had a chance to play in Europe during the last cycle.

    The Columbia was a reminder that we can sneak in one or two of those guys in with the starters, but when asked to play together it's usually a bad thing.
     
  7. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looking more closely at these assertions:

    First of all, that loss to Panama took place when Panama was under UK travel restrictions, and clubs had the right to refuse to release players if they would have to quarantine for an extended time. No UK-based players were released for the Panama game.

    Second, consider when those MLSers got most of their minutes. They got a lot of minutes in the Gold Cup where we brought a B team after having used the A team in the Nations League finals the same summer. They also got a lot of minutes in 2019, when they were legitimately the starters because the players who ended up replacing them had not yet had their breakout club seasons. They continued to get minutes early in WCQ but those minutes dropped off as we integrated the players who would end up starting at the World Cup. We had to integrate the new players during qualifying because most of them had their breakout season in 2019-20, which put them in the national team picture in 2020, the year that international football was more-or-less cancelled. There were several MLS-based friendly rosters after that because travel restrictions forced us to maintain separate Euro and MLS squads for most of the first half of 2021.
     
  8. dams

    dams Member+

    United States
    Dec 22, 2018
    I agree with all of this. With the Scally thing, I get the feeling that some of it may have simply come down to GGG being sensitive to the idea that we already had a lot of young players on the roster. I'm not sure he was overly anxious to add another one, particularly on the defensive side.

    He dropped the ball IMO though in that he should have vet Scally in qualifiers prior to the WC. That looks like a mistake to me now, and it looked like a mistake then, considering some of the backs he was bringing in ahead of him.
     
  9. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Same thread, new title.
     
  10. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #35 Clint Eastwood, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    Arriola had 10 goals and 6 assists in MLS last year.

    The fourth leading goal-scorer in the league after Ferreira, Vazquez, and Ebobisse.

    100% he deserved a chance at January camp.

    ................and he basically only got playing time with the USMNT when Pulisic, Weah, etc. were out injured. When the games really mattered, Arriola wasn't in the group.

    I had some moron explain to me the other day that Zendejas should be called up over Arriola, because Arriola would never play for an organization like Club America. Meanwhile, Club America submitted a transfer bid for Arriola last year. And Arriola was very successful in Liga MX with Tijuana. Zendejas meanwhile WAS an MLS player with FC Dallas.

    Nonsense. You're comparing the leading domestic goalscorer in the MLS to a guy who did nothing in the league. Gioacchini is in MLS now. Barely looks up to the level. Orlando had him training with their MLS Next Pro team, and just let him walk in the expansion draft to St. Louis for nothing.

    I really enjoy it when these Euro darlings come to MLS and do nothing. Happens all the time. Nicholas still has more time. Hasn't been in the league very long. I haven't given up on him. But come on.......................

    Next is maybe Matthew Hoppe or somebody. We have to keep calling up Matthew Hoppe! Let's go! Then when we see Matthew Hoppe in January camp we're all like "Eh. What does he actually do?"

    Maybe it could be Sabbi, who barely does anything in Denmark. He's played in 4 games this season. Last year he played only 600 minutes in the league. But somehow he has his fanboys. "He must be better than an MLS player!! He plays in Denmark!" Really? Are we watching the same player?
     
  11. dams

    dams Member+

    United States
    Dec 22, 2018
    I've fallen off the Hoppe bandwagon and feel he should not be getting called in again until he is showing something on the first team at a decent level club, period. I also question if that will ever happen. But to my eye, he looked more dangerous than both Jesus and Paul did against Columbia.
     
  12. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    look, if you cannot see that greggg made a decision from day 1 that he will bring a sizable mls contingent to qatar, gold cup, wcq, etc....i don't know what to tell you. it was obvious the way he endlesslessly cycled through any and all MLSers he could find, depsite them all being inadequate, basically. and how he gave participation trophies aka "slots on his roster" to many of them in Qatar.

    it's obvious gregg pre-decides everything he does as USMNT manager. he did it with Gio in Qatar. he told him before the WOrld Cup he would barely play. Just think about the pre-meditation involved. I even read a quote from Gregg saying he pre-planned all contingencies before the tourney because it is so hard to think in the heat of emotion. His brain apparently turns off when the stakes raise and emotions flare.....thats probably why he kicked his future wife, as well.

    I didn't want to make this thread a referendum on analyzing gregg's micro-decisions, really----

    My general idea was: IF you are USMNT Manager and MLS....AND you both want to make MLS look good.....does flooding the USMNT with MLSers Help or Hurt the view of MLS and the American player???

    on the surface, it would seem the more MLS the better....but what if those players underperform, like the y did in Qatar....wouldnt that actually be detrimental to the american players in MLS in a way?

    In hindsight, perhaps much less MLS on the USMNT under berhalter would have preserved their reputations a bit better. Perhps only using those select MLSers who are exceptional and not just filler type players would help to paint MLS in a better light globally??
     
  13. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I’d like to know just who on a global scale cares about Shaq Moore at the World Cup and how his performance there defines the league where he has eleven appearances.
     
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  14. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nobody.

    There is zero evidence that Berhalter (or any other coach) is calling up players to influence the "global reputation" of MLS. Zero.

    The truth is that Berhalter just thought a player like Moore gave him a better chance of winning than a guy like Scally. Make of that what you will. Maybe that's more damning. :)
     
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  15. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    if was about what he thinks of moore specifically it wouldnt have been such a systematic favoring of MLS throughout his tenure, though...he bent over backwards to keep mls in his team
     
  16. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    evidence or no...my question is what has been the result?

    I think the last cycle has damaged the rep of domestic players in MLS, unwittingly.
     
  17. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not "obvious" unless you make assumptions that fit your narrative. Take Gio, for example: we only have Gio himself describing what Gregg said, which is also not what you're claiming Gregg said. Although I have no doubt that Gio interpreted his role as "very limited," it is entirely consistent with Gregg merely saying Pulisic and Weah were his first-choice starters on the wing, and Gio seeing it as a big reduction in role in light of his past history with the USMNT.

    As for the "big" MLS contingent, it was one of the smaller ones in recent history -- and if you complain that the MLS contingent is too big, you need to name the players who "obviously" should have been there instead.
     
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  18. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While Scally has done better in club play, Moore generally looked better with the USMNT before the World Cup -- of course some of it may come down to Scally having less time to train with the group.

    In any case, I would not take Moore as an example of MLS bias, because Gregg brought him into the player pool when he was in Spain.
     
  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Either stop including games when European based players weren't available or produce similar stats for Klinsmann, Bradley and Arena.
     
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  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bent over backwards, how? when?

    Did he drop Adams, Turner and Aaronson when they moved to Europe?

    Did he play Long over Ream?

    Should he have dropped players because they moved from Europe to MLS?

    The players with the most minutes in 2022 were Adams, Musah, Pulisic, Robinson, Zimmerman, Turner, McKennie, Weah, Dest, Acosta, Aaronson and Ferreira and that includes domestic friendlies.
     
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  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    This is why MLS fans suck so much. They whined for years that MLS players weren't getting a fair shot and then deny over and over the ridiculous benefit MLS players have gotten with Arena and Berhalter. Arguments like "MLS players get more minutes because of January camp or a domestic heavy GC" when it is clear they doesn't make up the large amount of minutes.

    It is pretty hard to find a single game where there isn't at least one MLS player on the field who doesn't belong (outside of WC and 2019 GC knock out games where he went with the best he had). We have had 6 years of tons of MLS guys getting a shot and I can't think of one who would be in my starting XI today.

    This coach wasted massive amounts of minutes bad MLS players and didn't have enough time to work with his key players... aka euro asked top 13ish players. Outside of the top 5 or so, Berhalter played crappy MLS guys in games over them. The coach scheduled more domestic camps than any coach in history, including one in a fifa window. What a shifty coach, league, and especially fans.
     
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  22. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Berhalter also had mixed results with the Europlayers.

    The World Cup usually coincides with the summer transfer window. The 2022 Cup coincided with the normally quieter winter window.
     
  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Called in rosters that were 2/3 MLS players until he got the shit scared out of him in NL. He held more domestic camps than any coach in history. So I guess, 2019, October 2020, December 2020, December 2021, and November 2022. He treated Aaron Long as if he were Pulisic all while ignoring CCV for most of 2022.

    No, and that doesn't prove anything.

    Yes, he did play Long over every other CB when healthy until the WC.

    No, he shouldn't have dropped players moving to MLS, but he shouldn't have favored them over other a,ternatives if not more talented.

    Yep, Zimmerman. Acosta, and Ferreria got way too any minutes in 2022 over more talented euro based guys. Ferreira doesn't look like he should be close to this team and the other two are bench players at best. Kind of weird that most on here agree that Acosta is poor as an 8 and only useful as an emergency sub for Adams, but both of them played a ton of minutes. Pretty clear he was misused as an 8 extensively over more talented euro based guys.

    2022 was better than prior years, but was still poor. He actually got incremently better over time. It is obvious these players benefited all cycle. Pretty crazy who some of the guys are who are in the top 25 of players getting minutes under Berhalter.... Zimmerman (2), Arriola (9), Acosta (10), Long (11), Lletget (13), Zardes (18), Roldan (19l), Morris (22), Yeuiill (24). Every single one of those players got way too many minutes at the expense of euro based guys who are more talented.
     
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  24. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #49 adam tash, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    thank you.....you obviously see things correctly, unlike many others in this thread.....

    Havent used the ignore feature much on this site....but considering using it a lot more....


    the craziest thing to me is that "fans" can actually support the total BS we are being forcefed!! I am flabbergasted that any true fan of the USMNT could accept what has gone on in this regard and attack those that bring it up....its insane to me

    And I was definitely a fan who wanted to see more lee nguyen, feilhaber etc under klinsmann

    My difference is that I want playing time to be performance-based and I want callups to be equal opportunity and I want inaedquate players to be jettisoned regardless of how good they are i.e. vibes

    i've advocated for a player like sabbi to get a chance....but people take that as me 100% guaranteeing he would be a starter....no...I just wanted him to get a chance!!! an actual chance.....like one full 90....which he still hasnt gotten......

    advocating for sabbi is also about the fact that the alternatives are NOT GOOD ENOUGH! period...so look at other players!!! which is my real argument....but any time I make an argument...every opposer wants to turn it into a referendum on specific players so that they can obfuscate and deflect

    Taylor booth....who i sad should be on the qatar roster before it was announced....has only made team of the week every week and player of the month in the same coutry that knocked the usmnt out of qatar...but no....we have to have kelyn acosta playing the 8
     
  25. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Yes Gregg had mixed results with Euro based players and bad results with MLS players and I believe it was because he was a horrible coach. I believe he could have had the best players in the world and still had problems with any team that "surprised" him. He was particularly horrible at in game adjustments and lineup selections and that would have been even more obvious if he truly had good players across the board.

    None of his results, except in about 4 matches total, were even as good as expectations. He just was horrible and it is surprising that good players did not refuse his call ups.

    It is nearly impossible for good players to play well if they are directed by a moron like Gregg Berhalter.

    In fact it is quite possible that some of the MLS players are actually good enough for use from time to time but we cannot know for sure because bad coaching puts them in position to fail. Good coaching might allow some of the MLS players to look like the belong playing international soccer. Berhalter might have personally limited the future of some good players. :(
     
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