Perfomance at the WC: Maradona `1986 vs Messi 2022?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Gregoire1, Dec 20, 2022.

?

Better perfomance

  1. Messi 2022

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Maradona 1986

    50 vote(s)
    86.2%
  1. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    No, it is actually very logical. I never completely dismissed. But what you fail to seemingly acknowledge is that Messi operates with a specific style in a specific system. It's the nature of the player. Can you imagine Messi achieving the same number of goals by occupying the center backs in the box? He cannot, his goal productivity would plummet. His profile as a player is such that he has a different phenotype of play. He has better quality in his pass than those players, that is unmistakable - but those players are also superior as target men for example.
    And no, it is not illogical, this means Messi is responsible for more turnovers and is therefore likely implicated in offering more dangerous situations to the opposing team - especially when you see he is the player that is most dribbled against. That is to highlight the negative impact of a forward player participating as much in the passing game. Very likely, if the other players played like Messi they would have more turnovers - but they don't so the point is not relevant. Furthermore, their turnovers are in safer areas of the pitch. Messi is dispossessed in more dangerous areas.

    I am not biased against Messi - in fact, I've praised him. What I have done is dismantled the outrageous myths some of his fanboys perpetrate.
     
  2. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I think we need to take a step back and realize that there is currently someone here earnestly comparing Lionel Messi and Karim Benzema (among others, including Lewandowski and Harry Kane) and concluding that, over the course of their careers, Messi is “not more productive” and not “a better forward” in the CL. And we should realize that that individual’s conclusion is based on such purportedly important and significant facts as Benzema having a whopping 0.77 more touches per 90 mins in the defensive third (which was described by this individual as “far more touches,” while somehow simultaneously describing Messi’s 1.74 fewer touches per 90 minutes in the penalty area than Benzema as “a comparable amount of touches”). It’s just a complete jumping of the shark, which really just resembles performance art.

    The thread obviously needs to be pivoted away from such transparent trolling. To that end, I will redirect it (to something a bit more on topic for the thread):

    ____________________

    I think there’s general agreement amongst the vast majority of people here that the answer to this thread’s question is that Maradona 1986 was superior to Messi 2022. Indeed, the vote in the poll is 41-6, and most everyone who has posted has agreed with that (such that the discussion ended up veering into a bunch of other subjects). But Maradona’s 1986 performance is generally seen as the best WC performance. So, if Messi’s 2022 performance is not as good as Maradona’s 1986 performance, that raises the question of what is a better comparator and where it ranks amongst other top performances?

    Below, listed in no particular order, are some great WC performances (not an exhaustive list of all the best ones, and I’ve only included people who were at least finalists). Which of these (if any) do you think were better than Messi in WC 2022, and which of these (if any) do you think weren’t as good?

    - Cruyff 1974
    - Kempes 1978
    - Ronaldo 2002
    - Ronaldo 1998
    - Pele 1970
    - Garrincha 1962
    - Rossi 1982
    - Romario 1994
    - Charlton 1966
    - Zidane 1998
    - Zidane 2006
    - Pirlo 2006
    - Matthaus 1990
    - Xavi 2010
    - Iniesta 2010
    - Modric 2018

    Tagging some people who have posted in this thread below (no one need feel the need to respond to this question though of course):

    @PrimoCalcio @carlito86 @Sexy Beast @Gregoire1 @Isaías Silva Serafim @PDG1978 @Praasen @Danko
     
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  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #878 carlito86, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    Messi 22 was probably way way better than half those names you mentioned but then half those names weren't even spectacular to begin with.

    Overrated performances

    Iniesta 2010 is in his own special and unique category
    He is the overrated king of all kings
    20230201_071357.JPG
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrol_performance_index
    5 Spanish players in the top 10 but castrol probably has an "agenda" to keep out iniesta

    This is the same iniesta who wasn't in the top 20 players in la liga 2009/10
    https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2.../3218/PlayerStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2009-2010

    The same iniesta who was the 205th 'best player' in the 2009/10 CL
    https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...rStatistics/Europe-Champions-League-2009-2010

    205th is not a typo


    The same iniesta who finished 2nd place in the 2010 ballon dor
    iniesta is the most overrated player in the History of football


    Arguably overrated aswell
    Charlton 1966
    Modric 2018
    Ronaldo 1998


    Of course you didn't mention the guys who actually deserve to be mentioned in the first place

    Eusebio 1966
    Zico 1982
    Hagi 1994
    Baggio 1994
    Jairzinho 1970

    If you are hell bent on only considering players who reached the final as being worthy of a comparison then you'd probably have to accept this

    Cristiano was the highest ranked finalist according to sofascore in 3 consecutive champions leagues


    2015/16
    Messi was knocked out in the quarter final
    Cristiano was the highest ranked finalist
    20230201_073607.JPG


    2016/17
    Messi/Neymar were knocked out in the quarter final
    Cristiano was the highest ranked finalist
    20230201_073640.JPG


    2017/18
    Cristiano Ronaldo knocked out Neymar in the R16
    He was again the highest ranked finalist
    20230201_073656.JPG

    Are you consistent or just playing games here with sofascore ?

    If you're open to the idea that a quarter finalist or semi finalist can be superior to a player who reaches a final then I'd be more than willing to discuss how Eusebio 66 blows Messi out of the water according to most if not all objective measures

    Goals
    Dribbles
    Ball carrying
    Shots
    That kind of thing
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'll give you a quick answer on that then mate:

    I'd say better for sure (ok, in my opinion/estimation, should be added):
    Cruyff 1974
    .....
    Garrincha 1962
    Pele 1970

    Probably better by a small-ish margin:
    Kempes 1978
    Romario 1994

    Possibly better by a small-ish margin:
    Zidane 2006
    Charlton 1966
    Ronaldo 1998

    Uncertain/close (higher group i.e could be better IMO but the case wouldn't be clear for sure):
    Ronaldo 2002
    Rossi 1982
    Matthaus 1990
    Zidane 1998

    Uncertain/close (main group i.e could be less good but not by a lot IMO):
    Pirlo 2006
    Iniesta 2010

    Uncertain/close (lower group i.e starting to lean towards Messi myself, but still close):
    Xavi 2010
    Modric 2018

    I know this will throw up some differences with you and/or others in itself: I understand in a way why Pirlo 2006 can be picked above Zidane 2006 for example, and IIRC you felt Xavi was better than Iniesta in the 2010 WC.
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe I should/would have even worded that a bit more towards the close calls being with the 3rd/4th groups I put there (it can look as much towards 5th/6th the way I did word it), but anyway hopefully I can still avoid getting embroiled in any arguments (I did hesitate...although not long obviously lol....about posting it, but since I've been tagged I went ahead).

    I'd picked out Brolin 1994 on another thread as a possible comparison btw.
     
  6. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    This is spot on.
     
  7. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    I think among the finalists, one performance you missed to mention along with jairzinho 1970 is helmut haller 1966.not sure many will agree but he was quite clutch in QF and SF,and scored in the final too.Underrated and forgotten performance I guess.also perhaps Beckenbauer 1974 is worth a mention.

    As for Messi I would place only cruyff 1974 and garrincha 1962 above him from the list you put in.jairzinho should be ahead too. Pele 1970, kempes 1978 and Mattheus 1990, I would like to put them at same level with Messi 2022.Romario has to be up there too but for his final performance.
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I still feel like I'd more likely have Beckenbauer 1966 up there (perhaps 1970 too), as opposed to Beckenbauer 1974, actually. I do think his prime was as a libero in general, but in 1974 he played relatively conservatively I think - all the 1974 footage is available and not a lot of it makes it onto here for example (although I should say there is a Beckenbauer World Cup video by Matigol that shows somewhat more moments where he is being incisive towards the opposition box...but yeah I don't think he generally did a lot in that respect in that World Cup, comparing to perhaps games like vs St Etienne in 1975, Real Madrid in 1976, the 1971 German Cup Final, the 1972 Euros Final etc)
     
  9. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think Mbappé have all the support for being one of the GOATs. In addition to playing for such a strong national team, he also plays for a super club that plays for him exactly like Messi and Ronaldo with Barcelona and Real Madrid respectively. But of course PSG and Ligue 1 don't have the prestige of Real, Barça and LaLiga. It would be interesting if he won some UCL with PSG. He will need to maintain this level or increase for another 10 seasons and if he doesn't get injured he will probably be among the GOATs in the end
     
  10. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    So why are there no seemingly great performances in the last 7 WCs? But back in the day every WC had historical performance?
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I don't know. Maybe underperformance of the main candidates in their primes (which can actually include Ronaldo the Brazilian because he had fitness issues before the Final even in 1998 - clarification: I mean in the early games too, not only after his 'episode' albeit I might be looking upon his actual Final performance with a bit of sympathy because of that and not holding it too much against him, and only just returned to the game in 2002 - btw I think I agree with you in terms of saying his performance in the Final that year wasn't really close to a 10/10 one in quality overall), plus that it might be more difficult in some respects in modern International football.

    If we're thinking more generally about numbers of great individual players then potentially I do think there might have been more at certain times in the past, but maybe that is a rabbit hole we shouldn't go down too much as it'll lead to unsolvable arguments and bad feeling from both sides or whatever potentially. It's interesting looking back to the 1930s (as on the newly opened thread of @CristianoPuskas that I've been following in the last days, and contributing to a little) and seeing that there were similar ideas around that time about there having been more great/skilled players 'back in the day' anyway, so sometimes these views can rightly or wrongly gain traction.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Anyway, people can disagree with it of course, but my approximation about Brolin 94 and Messi 22 wasn't meant to be a negative one really because I think Brolin had an excellent World Cup. Of course he is not remotely like Messi in terms of historical legend, but at that moment (unlike Messi) he was in his prime age, and he did contribute a lot to that relatively successful Swedish World Cup tournament.

    I have watched all games of both players, but the Brolin ones long ago (but caught up with highlights/ratings etc to remind me when we were discussing things on Big Soccer, and there is a video made especially with most of his good contributions on Youtube). If I do a similar comparison to how I did it for Maradona 86 and Messi 22, I'm thinking maybe as follows:
    Game 1 - Not much in it probably; perhaps Brolin with a slight edge
    Game 2 - Perhaps Messi, but if so only really because of the goal, and how it was scored (I might tend to put Brolin ahead I'm thinking in terms of general performance, if anything)
    Game 3 - I think Messi actually, but it'd mean that I'd be being harsh on Brolin possibly as it could only be on general performance since Brolin had an excellent assist (and he had a good game in general I think, but nevertheless I think Messi showed enough to get the verdict if I make one, probably)
    Game 4 - I'd go with Brolin in this one I think probably
    Game 5 - Notable games for both, but I think Messi
    Game 6 - I might lean towards Messi, especially given his assisting prowess (though I think he made a more outstanding one in the previous game), but I think Brolin wasn't bad at all and going too heavily to Messi might be a mistake based on just thinking about the result too much
    Game 7 - I think Brolin, but of course it might be considered of relevance that he played a 3rd place match, and Messi was playing and winning in a Final (but while Messi had both good contributions and key moments, I feel like comparing the performances can go in Brolin's favour - it could fairly be suggested, partly because of the nature of the 3rd place game, that it was easier to shine for him perhaps...but then we could think about the issues of 'illness' in the French team and think again potentially about that maybe...)
     
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  13. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    I think it could be interesting to dig into Messi 2022 vs Pele 1970 a bit. They're analogous tournaments in some ways as both players are past their athletic primes and the narrative for both is that it is the last chance for WC glory (although Pele already achieved it obviously). Both were seen as veterans and team leaders, and both had a point to prove for slightly different reasons.

    I'd be interested to hear what everybody's opinion is on that topic. Presently, I am leaning towards Pele 1970 but a discussion could change things.
    @Praasen @lessthanjake @PDG1978 @carlito86 @Isaías Silva Serafim @Sexy Beast @Gregoire1
     
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  14. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #889 lessthanjake, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    My not including people who weren’t finalists isn’t so much that a finalist must have played better (Eusebio for instance played better than most of the names I listed), but more just as a way to limit the number of names and to have a stronger basis for comparison (i.e. had matches at the same stages, typically the same number of matches, played on the same massive stage of the WC finals, etc.). It’s a good point about Baggio and Jairzinho, though. They obviously were finalists, and probably should’ve been included.

    In any event, very briefly I’ll note that I wasn’t talking about the CL so I’m not sure your point there, but I think you’ll find that Cristiano Ronaldo does tend to get substantially more credit than Messi for his CL performances in those years where he won and Messi went out relatively early, regardless of SofaScore having Messi’s average higher.
     
  15. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Pele played with what is seen as one of the greatest teams ever and Messi apparently with Argentina that is not even an all time great team..

    Its not the same at the very least.
     
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  16. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Good point about Helmut Haller. That’s another name I missed. So, it probably should’ve included Jairzinho 1970, Baggio 1994, and Haller 1966.
     
  17. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Yeah, that's one of the points in Messi's direction. Argentina 2022 was obviously not the same calibre team as Brazil 1970. Also, that Messi made a difference in every single knockout match is big for me. Maybe later when I have more time I'll try making a strong argument for both tournaments.
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    What I would say (to expand on my earlier reply) though is that actually for a trio of attack/AM players and a goalie (or alternatively a defender in theory), 2022 probably stacks up ok in the sense that potentially all of Griezmann, Mbappe and Messi could be seen as contenders for top 50 all-time (or since 1958 say as it's easier to judge), maybe even any can be suggested for top 20 without it being immediately dismissed, and Livakovic I think had a better tournament than most goalkeepers have had.

    Maybe the same could be said for most of the tournaments (1962 could be doubtful I presume though for example; 1990 might struggle for that kind of selection if the players have to have gone to the latter stages like those 2022 players did), but I mean that it's not an outlier without any such potential candidates. Maybe I do think 2010 could be more of an outlier for example, though other than the already mentioned Spaniards there were also Muller, Forlan etc who had stand-out tournaments still, and a decent amount of other players in a similar ballpark too maybe (I'm just not sure how much they'd be in contention for the relatively upper echelons all-time, or since 1958).
     
  19. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I don't think it's correct to compare Zidane's shots from inside the area with Messi because their teams were very different. The important thing for my point is to compare Zidane and Messi's shots inside the box with their "main finisher/dedicated goalscorer"

    In 2006 Henry took 17 shots from inside the box while Zidane only had 7

    In 2002 Zidane only played one game so I don't think it fits the analysis. (Besides, he didn't throw a single shot inside the box in that game.)

    In 98 Zidane took 11 shots inside the box while Trezeguet took 18 (it's worth remembering that he shared minutes with Guivarc'h in that competition. Although Zidane lost 2 games due to a red card, the average number of shots inside the box is considerably higher. Trezeguet took 4.65 shots inside the box every 90 minutes played while Zidane took 2.14 p90) As you can see, Zidane is always far below his main finisher in number of shots inside the box.

    Now let's go to Messi:

    In 2010, Messi took 11 shots inside the box while his main finisher, Higuain, took 12

    In 2014 Messi took 6 shots inside the box while his main finisher took 14 (here Messi really played like a pure AM and cannot be charged for the lack of goals)

    In 2018 Messi took 8 shots inside the box while Aguero took 6

    In 2022 Messi took 19 shots from inside the area while Julian Alvarez only took 11

    The bottom line is that Messi has played like Zidane in only one of his 4 World Cups. In the other 3 he was his team's main finisher in a way that Zidane never was.
     
  20. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    It’s a good/interesting comparison—for the reasons you stated.

    And I think it is a close one. I’m inclined to go with Pele.

    This is going to be a bit reductive since I’m mostly talking about goal contributions, but my thinking is as follows: There’s not necessarily a big difference in terms of overall play, but while the goals+assists numbers look the same, Messi’s included a bunch of penalty goals and Pele’s came in one fewer match, so those numbers for Messi aren’t quite as impressive. I think the counter argument to that is that Pele was clearly on a better team, which of course makes scoring/assisting easier. So, for example, even if you took the penalty goals out of the equation entirely (which is not entirely fair to Messi obviously, since penalty goals do have value), Messi’s goal contribution percentage would actually be higher than Pele’s was (54.5% vs. 52.6%). But, in general, I tend to have a fairly strong inclination to favor high goal contribution on a high scoring team over similar/somewhat-higher goal contribution on a significantly lower scoring team. In part because it’s definitely easier to rack up such goal contribution as a focal-point player on a lower scoring team (I believe I used an example years ago of Charlie Austin having higher goal contribution than Messi), and because I think it’s generally true that the player on the high scoring team playing great is at least part of the reason the team was higher scoring so we can’t just totally discount that.

    But there’s a couple other things Messi has in his favor.

    - Partly by virtue of his team dominating so much, a little bit less of the great stuff Pele did was totally vital to his team. Messi scored a goal to make it 1-0 in 5 of their 7 matches, and in one of the other two matches (against the Netherlands) his beautiful assist made it 1-0. The only match where he didn’t score or assist to initially put Argentina ahead was the final group stage match. And of course he also scored a goal to put them up 3-2 in extra time in the finals. Pele of course had contributions in important moments, but in the QFs and SFs, the team was already ahead by the time his first goal contribution came in. So Messi’s goals/assists were IMO more vital/important. But that’s not surprising, when we take into account Pele’s team simply being better—goals for a lesser team are, on average, going to be more vital/important—and a good portion of those crucial goals for Messi were penalties he didn’t draw.

    - I also don’t think Pele had any assists that were nearly as decisive to the goal as Messi’s against the Netherlands and Croatia. Those assists from Messi do weigh higher in my view than any of Pele’s assists do (and of course higher than Messi’s own assist vs. Mexico, which wasn’t really much of anything).

    Overall, though, I go with Pele. It’s a good comparator though IMO.
     
  21. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I could quibble with this data,* but ultimately, as I’ve alluded to before, I don’t really think a mechanical comparison of inside-the-box shots compared to a striker’s is the correct means to analyze this issue. The question is not how much a striker is vacating the central-forward space in general (which is what looking at different strikers’ inside-the-box shot totals could help measure), but rather how much they are vacating that space for Lionel Messi specifically. And, on that question, it seems to me that Messi’s own number of shots in the box and Messi’s own heat map is pretty clearly the best indicator. And those indicators show that, until WC 2022, (1) Messi’s overall number of inside the box shots per game over the course of a bunch of tournaments we have data for was very similar to Zidane’s number of inside the box shots per game between WC 1998 and WC 2006; and (2) Messi’s heat maps for Argentina show a similar lack of activity inside the box as Zidane’s do. This seems to clearly indicate a similar amount of activity inside the box for Messi and Zidane—so, if Messi’s strikers happen to have fewer inside the box shots than Zidane’s strikers, that is likely due to another factor such as higher tactical fluidity in general (i.e. the striker is vacating that space more for other people), not a higher amount of vacating that space for Messi as compared to for Zidane. For instance, I don’t think it makes sense to conclude that the striker was vacating the box for Messi more in WC 2010 than for Zidane in WC 1998, when both Messi and Zidane had 11 inside the box shots in 5 games, and their amount of activity in the box on the heat map looks very similar.

    Notably, both the inside-the-box shots and the heat map for WC 2022 indicate that Messi was occupying that forward space a lot more in that tournament than he previously had for Argentina. And this makes sense from a tactical perspective, since, unlike previous years, they did not have a world-class striker. Of course, this tactical/role difference is surely a good part of the reason that Messi actually scored a lot more in that tournament (of course, penalties did help as well).

    _________________

    * For instance, you didn’t list numbers for various Copa Americas, but as an example, in CA 2021, Lautaro Martinez had 2.8 inside the box shots per 90 mins, compared to 1.4 for Messi, and in CA 2019, Aguero had 2.3 inside the box shots per 90 mins, compared to just 1.1 for Messi. As another example, Higuain missed a match in 2010, so while he only had one more inside the box shot in the tournament, his inside-the-box shots per 90 mins was 3.2 compared to Messi’s 2.2.
     
  22. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Again I don't think it makes sense for this analysis to compare Messi's average shots inside the box with Zidane's because as I said, the teams were very different. France in 98 took 87 shots from inside the box while Argentina in 2022 took 67. It would make much more sense to compare Messi's % of shots inside the box in relation to his team and Zidane's in relation to his team. But like I said, for my analysis, the most important thing is to compare how many shots they had in relation to their dedicated goal scorers. Because that's strong evidence of how much their #9 left finishing to them. And I'm sure that Messi's left much more than Zidane's. You can clearly see this just by watching the games. Everywhere Messi played it was always like this. He always pushed the #9 to the wing so he could keep the goals. Probably the most extreme case was with Ibrahimovic. It was bizarre to see a guy like him having to play in the Wings because of Messi. It was like that in Barcelona and it was like that in Argentina. As for Zidane, he always played behind one or two #9. Inzaghi, Del Piero at Juve, Raul, Morientes, Ronaldo, Owen, etc... at Real, Trezeguet, Henry in France. He was never the main finisher of his team.
     
  23. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #898 lessthanjake, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    I won’t quibble with this stuff in any broader sense. We’d of course disagree about a lot of this, but I don’t always have particularly strong thoughts about many of these performances (I listed a lot more performances than I have strong recollections/recent watching of—more to spur discussion than because I had really strong views about ranking them all). And some areas where we’d disagree are a bit tangential and largely have been played out elsewhere (for instance, you are right that I think Xavi was better than Iniesta in WC 2010).

    But I will just give some of my initial thoughts on the subject of where Messi’s WC 2022 falls:

    To me, I think there are two in my list that I definitely put above: Cruyff 1974 and Kempes 1978. As I mentioned above, I think Pele 1970 is a relatively close call, but I lean towards Pele as well. Beyond that, I’m not sure that there’s any I can definitely say I think were better. Garrincha I’m leaving aside because, while I listed it, I don’t think I’ve ever gone through and watched all the video of it. So that one could potentially be added to the list of ones definitely above—I just can’t say for sure either way. Amongst the others, I’d have to think through more to get a list that gets to exactly where I’d rank Messi’s (i.e. which ones, if any, are slightly above or slightly below, etc.), but I suspect there’s few, if any, others that I’d put above Messi 2022.

    As one sidenote, I do think you’re overrating Zidane’s WC 2006 a good bit. Zidane was not particularly great in two draws in the group stages, and actually got himself suspended for the last group stage match. Which wouldn’t normally matter *that* much, but France actually needed to win that last match to go through, so I think being suspended for it should weigh as a big deal. Zidane’s impact on the group stage therefore was quite abnormally low amongst these top WC performances IMO. In the knockout stages, he was very good against Spain, but Vieira was France’s best player that game. And Zidane was only okay against Portugal and Italy (and got himself stupidly red carded in extra time, which has to weigh against him a fair bit). It was really just the Brazil match where he was fantastic and his team’s best player. That match matters a lot particularly given the opponent that he was having a great performance against, but I don’t think we should go overboard on it when ranking Zidane’s WC 2006 as a whole, given that his only actually decisive output was merely an assist off of a free kick (where Henry was somehow unmarked), and he didn’t actually create tons of chances. It was a game where he was an absolute maestro at ball retention in midfield, created one or two chances, and nabbed an assist off a set piece. And otherwise, he basically had one match where he was very good but not his team’s best player, and then otherwise was okay-pretty good and was suspended for a crucial match and red carded in the final.
     
  24. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @lessthanjake I did the count of % from shots inside the box from Zidane and Messi.

    Zidane took 12,64% in 98 and 13,20% in 2006 (I didn't add the ones from 2002 because he only played one game and didn't take any shots inside the box). So on average he took 12.92% of shots from inside the box from his team.

    On the other hand Messi took 22,91% in 2010, 11,32% in 2014, 21,21% in 2018 and 31,34%!!! in 2022. So on average he took 21,69% of shots from inside the box from his team.
     
  25. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #900 lessthanjake, Feb 1, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
    The bolded is an interesting question IMO.

    For Messi and his team, between SofaScore (WC 2010, CA 2019, and CA 2021) and WhoScored (WC 2014, WC 2018, and CA 2015), we have data on number of shots inside the box in most of his pre-WC 2022 major tournaments (I am not including WC 2022 since I am admitting Messi occupied central space more there—indeed, I’m saying that’s part of why he scored more in that tournament).

    Over the course of those six tournaments, Messi took 54 of Argentina’s 301 inside the box shots. That is 17.9%. Meanwhile, over the course of WC 1998 and WC 2006, Zidane took 18 of France’s 140 shots. That is 12.9%. But we need to remember that Zidane was suspended for 3 out of France’s 14 matches in those tournaments. So if we adjust upwards for Zidane having not played a significant percentage of France’s matches (i.e. multiply Zidane’s percentage by 14/11, since he only played 11 out of France’s 14 matches), it looks more like 16.4% for Zidane. Which isn’t really meaningfully different from Messi’s percentage IMO. So I think this sort of analysis backs up my point.

    ____________

    EDIT: Actually, @Isaías Silva Serafim we don’t need to do the proportional 14/11 calculation I just did, since we actually know how many inside the box shots France had each match (SofaScore has this data for each match). And, in the 3 matches that Zidane was suspended, France took 40 inside the box shots. Which leaves 100 inside the box shots in the matches Zidane played. He took 18 of those. Which is actually 18%. Very slightly higher than Messi’s 17.9%, but essentially the same. So I think this analysis really demonstrates my point.
     

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