This is a valid point, but it’s equally true that Messi is not the same type of focal point that dedicated goalscorers are, because he’s simply often not positioned in areas where he can score (and is instead positioned in areas where he can advance play and create). As I demonstrated above, he was often not dominating his teammates in terms of number of shots in the box, which is very different than a dedicated goalscorer. For instance, compare the numbers I gave above for Messi in the 2015-2016 La Liga season (where he was 3rd on his team in shots inside the box) with Cristiano Ronaldo in the 2017-2018 La Liga season. He had 140 shots in the box, with the next highest on Real Madrid being just 59. The year before that he had 113 shots in the box, with the next highest being 61. And the year before that he had 143 shots in the box, with the next highest being 89. Or let’s take Haaland this year, who has 69 shots in the box in the EPL this season, with the next highest on his team being 22. These players are much bigger focal points in terms of being the person on the end of chances in the box than Messi has virtually ever been (he briefly was similar around 2012, when Barcelona had no one else in scoring form at all). And this makes sense, because those players just spend a lot more of their time in the box, so if something is being created there, they’ll be there to get on the end of it. If the team is creating something in the box, Messi is often not the one filling that space (and often is the one instead doing the creating). I also just want to note that midfield players like Zidane and others do still try to do many of the things that Messi does to score. Attacking midfielders pretty commonly try to dribble past someone and take a shot from outside the box—something Messi does a lot. And they also pretty commonly try to make late runs into the box to score (indeed, Zidane almost won the 2006 WC final with a shot off one such late run—which Buffon make an excellent save on). That sort of stuff doesn’t involve teammates leaving the central forward spots open for you, since they’re quintessential midfielder goals where you’re never the furthest forward player. And a good bit of the difference in scoring is that Messi is just better at that sort of stuff. But he nevertheless does of course have games where he doesn’t try that stuff much or it doesn’t pan out. I don’t really think it makes a great game from him worse than the typical game from other attacking midfielders where they also don’t try that stuff much either or it doesn’t pan out for them. Him succeeding at stuff like that is basically just additive to what a normal attacking midfielder provides.
I really wanted to avoid devolving the conversation into a stats-based discussion, as I find them awfully tedious and of limited external validity due to the sheer number of confounders - I do so as a general rule. But I will bite. I went to fbref, which has passing data for the 2022 WC. Of note, it is probably the best dataset to potentially support your argument as it featured the least athletic Messi in a more withdrawn role than previous in what is his best performance. Here is what I have found: The team with the most completed passes is Argentina at 3911, having played the equivalent of 7.7 90minute matches. In comparison, the number 2 team Croatia with also an equivalent 7.7 x 90, produced 3766 passes. Finally, the other finalist, France with a similar 7.3 x 90, produced 3277. There is a sizeable difference in the sheer volume of passing. They all have fairly comparable pass completion rates at 84.6, 83.3, and 82.6, but short of watching these teams play, it is hard to judge on the quality of the passing since there is a sizeable difference between holding possession in advanced position vs. recycled possession among CBs. In terms of passes entering the final third, 241 vs 246 vs 300. If we look at total progressive distance: Arg 18617 vs Cro 20561, Fra 18414 - fairly comparable. The passing into offensive positions, seems broadly, of similar efficiency, with France slightly more aggressive which may explain the slightly lower pass completion rate. Where we do find some clues are the number of crosses: 7, 22, 20. Makes sense, as the primary attacker of one team is Messi and the diminutive striking partner Alvarez, whereas the other teams had traditional 9s. With the context provided, we can contextualize Messi`s numbers. He ranks 26th in the tournament for most completed passes at 300. With respect to his Argentina teammates, he is 4th behind Otamendi (532), De Paul (470), and Fernandez (412). We can exclude Otamendi since his passes are obviously much less contributory to the offensive construction. Not only have De Paul and Fernandez produced far more passes, they did so in the equivalent of one less match played! 6.7 and 6.3 x 90minutes respectively (Messi 7.7). Messi contributed to 7.6% of all Argentina`s passes in a context where he played every minute. But let us go further and analyze how much of Messi's passing gained ground - ie. progressive distance. Here, he ranks 41st in the tournament - but there is an obvious reason for this - he`s an attacker and providing forward passes in his areas of the pitch are far more difficult than doing so elsewhere. If we exclude defenders and GKs, the players whose passing moved the ball forward the most are: Modric (7.3 x 90) 2857 - 391m p 90 Tchouameni (6.9 x 90) 1871 - 271m p 90 Brozovic (6.1 x 90) 1726 - 283m p 90 Fernandez (6.3 x 90) 1694 - 269m p 90 Messi (7.7 x 90) 1561 - 203m p 90 De Paul (6.7 x 90) 1446 - 215m p 90 As a proportion of the distance of all his passes, 34% gained distance. Comparatively, of Modric's passes, 37% gained ground, which is surprising to see. You would expect a metronome and box-to-box to produce more recycling of possession. Here, we find that a significant majority (66%) of Messi's passing is not incisive. To further characterize his passing, 170 out of his 300 completed passes - 57% are short passes, which he completes at a rate of 93.4%.He has 27 long distance passes completed at a rate of 57.4%. Comparatively, Modric has 49% short distance passes and 45 long distance at a rate of 63.4% completion. For reference, the the long distance accuracy for either player is not all that impressive when you see guys like Brozovic clocking 48 long distance at 89% completion rate - and there are many players in that range. 57.4% is poor accuracy and leading to many turnovers. In terms of passes into the final third, Messi is 7th for the tournament at 38, and second for his team behind Fernandez at 43. Modric is 2nd for the tournament at 51. On a per 90 basis, for comparison: Modric 7 per 90 Fernandez 6.8 per 90 Messi 4.9 per 90 De Paul 5.2 per 90 Where Messi distinguishes himself is the number of passes into the box: He is the player who completed the most passes into the box at 18, with 0 crosses into the box. The second most is Dembele at 13 passes into the box, and 6 completed crosses. Di Maria is at 11 passes into the box, and 3 completed crosses. Griezmann 10 passes into the box, and 5 completed crosses. Modric 10 passes into the box, and 3 completed. If we amalgamate the actions of providing a pass or cross into the box, on a per 90 basis, this gives us: Messi 2.3 per 90 Dembele 4 per 90 Griezmann 2.5 per 90 Modric 1.8 per 90 If we take a look at the rate of some other Argentine players: Fernandez 1.7 per 90 De Paul 1.2 per 90 If we take a look at another forward such as Mbappe - 1.5 per 90 If we take a look at a world-class midfielder such as De Bruyne - 3.3 per 90 How about expected assists? Griezmann 3.6 Messi 1.9 - a rate Leroy Sane equalled in a single match. Obviously Griezmann compares more favourably on a per 90 basis: 0.6 per 90 vs. 0.2 per 90 for Messi. Messi's teammates finished at a better rate than you would have expected as both ended up with 3 assists, but clearly Griezmann created scenarios that had a higher probability of generating goals. Finally, what about the sheer number of progressive passes? 1. Mbappe 79 .... 4. Di Maria 60 ... 10. Messi 37 And Messi`s playing time dwarfs Di Maria's. Now that we have analyzed the passing, let`s look into the shooting stats: Messi took the 2nd most shots in the tournament at 27 behind Mbappe at 29. If we look at his goal per shot - 0.11 goals per shot vs. 0.21 goals per shot for Mbappe (Twice!). Messi's average distance is slightly farther than Mbappe 20.9 vs. 17.1, but 3 of Messi's shots are FK vs. 1 from Mbappe which will be outliers in terms of distance. If we look at the npXG (expected goals in general play), we get 3.6 for Mbappe vs. 2.7 for Messi. Mbappe had 6 Non-penalty goals vs. 3 NPG for Messi. For reference, Giroud has a npXG of 3.4 and scored 4 NPG. Obviously these numbers are not adjusted on a per 90 basis, which will make the comparison for Messi less favourable. What about shot-creating actions? Mbappe 7.3 per 90 Messi 6.1 per 90 Griezmann 5.5 per 90 Passes that lead to a shot attempt? Mbappe 28 Messi 28 Griezmann 19 Messi is a dead-ball specialist? How many dead balls lead to shots? 1. Griezmann 12 ... 6. Messi 5 Modric 5 Messi is the best dribbler? How many dribbles lead to shots? 1. Mbappe 7 ... 7. Messi 3 What about goal-creating actions? 1. Mbappe 11 (1.74 per 90) .. 3. Messi 5 (0.71 per 90) Finally, Messi is the most fouled player at 22. For comparison, De Paul and Modric stand at 15. Phew, that's a lot of text and information, but we can summarize what we see. Firstly, Argentina was a pass-heavy team. They completed the most passes in the tournament, and a similar volume to Croatia and France, which helps draw comparison between the respective players, and contextualizing this info. What can we conclude from this? Messi has a very unique profile and style as a player. He is quite clearly the forward that produces the most passes. No other forward is participatory to the same degree. However, if we analyze his passing role within the scope of his team, he is not the player who is the most relied upon to progress the ball in the final third - ranking 3rd in that regard. He is also third for his team in terms of meters gained with his passing, and a huge chunk of his passing is sideways or backwards - meaning that a significant proportion of his touches simply contribute to recycling possession, but do not necessarily provide an offensive dynamic. But what Messi did do is provide a rate of balls into the box at a comparable rate to Griezmann and Modric - which indicates that indeed his main passing role in the team is to find the final pass. He is at the end of the play, that is his primary function. So how well did he do here? He provided less expected goals than Griezmann, created less than half as many goal-creating actions as Mbappe, produced as many passes that led to shots as Mbappe, and produced less than half as many dribbles that lead to shots. What can be concluded is quite simply in the number of actions, Messi was inferior to Mbappe in creating dangerous situations and spends a lot of his passing maintaining or recycling possession but does not seem to directly threaten goal to the extent, all the while not carrying the primary duties of constructing play in the final third, but being more participatory in that regard than your world-class forward. On the metrics to judge a forward, Messi took a greater chunk of his team's shots, at a comparable volume to Mbappe, but threatened goal less and had a worse performance as an attacker. What does that lead me to conclude on the basis of these statistics? Yes, Messi plays a role in the construction of the offensive play, but he is participatory rather than the driving force for his team, and his principal role lies in being at the end of shots or creating shots - neither of which did he do as well as Mbappe in spite of enjoying more possession. Does this necessarily meant that Mbappe played better than him? No. But it does mean that if Messi is not scoring goals, then his contribution is inferior to other playmakers since they are more participatory in both construction of the play and advancing the ball, and he is not the driving force of his team`s attacking play. Finally, nothing in these statistics suggests an otherworldy or legendary performance purely from a footballing standard. What remains is that Messi's World Cup was great for other reasons, but not because the general play was set as some historical standard. Certainly, there is nothing here that suggests that Messi without goals is an all-time playmaker. Edit: I do think Messi is the MVP of the tournament.
In their three league seasons together, Messi took 325 shots in the box, Suarez took 284 shots in the box, and Neymar took 243 shots in the box. This is a much more even distribution of shots in the box then you’d see from a team with a dedicated goalscorer. For instance, in those same three seasons, Ronaldo took 390 shots in the box, while Bale took 152 and Benzema took 205. And Messi only became less of a focal point in this way as time went on and he played an even deeper role. For instance, in the three years after Neymar left, Messi had 258 shots in the box in league play, while Suarez had 248 shots in the box. For reference, in that timeframe, despite moving to a somewhat lesser team during this, Ronaldo had 375 shots in the box in league play (can’t compare to teammates in that span since he changed teams during it). So I think there really is a significant difference between the extent to which Messi was the focus at the end of Barcelona moves and the level to which a dedicated goalscorer would be. And that’s just logical, since Messi is objectively often positioned in areas far from the areas where you’d score goals from (but instead areas where you’d progress the ball and playmake). Of course, I concede it is also true that he is different in this regard than your typical attacking midfielder. But this is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Messi often gets more shots because he creates those opportunities with his own dribbling, one-two’s, and late runs. If Messi has a game where he doesn’t create those opportunities for himself in a given match, his matches can end up looking a whole lot like other attacking midfielders who don’t create such opportunities as much. But those guys can still have great matches anyways. ________________ * Note: You are referring to how many shots are taken, but I don’t really think shots outside the box can be used to demonstrate being the focal point of teams’ attacking moves. For one thing, a large portion of those are free kicks. For another thing, outside the box shots are quintessential midfielder goals that are fairly typical for attacking midfield players to take a lot of.
It would help if you didn’t post blatantly false information. You are primarily addressing the question of whether Messi is a major progressor of the ball with passing and you stated the following: “Finally, what about the sheer number of progressive passes? 1. Mbappe 79 .... 4. Di Maria 60 ... 10. Messi 37 And Messi`s playing time dwarfs Di Maria's.” This is completely false. Messi had 66 progressive passes in the World Cup—which was 2nd most in the tournament behind only Modric. Second on Messi’s team was just 37, so Messi progressed the ball far more times than anyone else on his team. Since you mentioned them, Mbappe had just 25, and Di Maria had 20. I am not going to bother checking the rest of the information in this post, since that would take forever and most of it is a sideshow to the question we are discussing anyways, but I imagine there’s a good chance some of it is similarly false. In any event, Messi obviously progressed play with passing quite a lot, since he literally had the 2nd most progressive passes in the tournament and the most on his team. You made up false data in order to suggest that wasn’t true. Furthermore, one World Cup is of course a very small sample of games, so we should look at other competitions too in order to get a more complete picture. Luckily, I’ve already provided you data on that on innumerable occasions over the course of this thread, showing that Messi is plainly and consistently elite in this regard. For instance, I’ll quote an earlier post of mine relating to the Copa America 2021: “In Copa America 2021, Messi had 38 progressive passes. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 18. Messi had 35 passes into the attacking third. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 19. Messi had 16 passes or crosses into the penalty area. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 7. Messi had 21 key passes. That was the most on Argentina, with the second most being just 6. Messi completed 25 long passes, which was the third-most amongst Argentina outfield players, and only 2 behind the lead. Messi’s passes had the 2nd most total progressive distance on his team. He made 51 shot-creating actions, with second most on Argentina being just 16. He made 34 successful dribbles, with second on the team being just 15.” There’s so much other information I’ve provided in this thread but the bottom line is this: Here’s where Messi ranked amongst all players in his domestic league each season in a few key stats relating specifically to progressing the ball with passing (with his ranking on his own team in parentheses): 2021-2022 Ligue 1: Progressive Passes: 1st (1st on his team) Passes into the Attacking Third: 3rd (1st on his team) Passes or Crosses into the Penalty Area: 3rd (1st on his team) 2020-2021 La Liga: Progressive Passes: 1st (1st on his team) Passes into the Attacking Third: 4th (2nd on his team) Passes or Crosses into the Penalty Area: 1st (1st on his team) 2019-2020 La Liga: Progressive Passes: 1st (1st on his team) Passes into the Attacking Third: 4th (1st on his team) Passes or Crosses into the Penalty Area: 2nd (1st on his team) 2018-2019 La Liga: Progressive Passes: 1st (1st on his team) Passes into the Attacking Third: 7th (3rd on his team) Passes or Crosses into the Penalty Area: 1st (1st on his team) 2017-2018 La Liga: Progressive Passes: 3rd (1st on his team) Passes into the Attacking Third: 6th (2nd on his team) Passes or Crosses into the Penalty Area: 1st (1st on his team) There’s just no argument that Messi isn’t an absolutely elite player at progressing the ball with passing in the attacking half. He is literally at or near the top of his league in the most relevant stats every year. You just can’t argue against this. It is objective fact and the only way you’ve been able to find to deny it is to make up numbers.
You're mistaking Messi's style for his role and that is an egregious error. Positionally, Messi started as an inside forward with some positional freedom to a false 9 aka striker that drops deep. Later, he bounced around these two positions to varying degrees of positional freedom. That is a tactical and stylistic choice, the goal being for Messi to evade man-marking from large CBs and allow him to play his game which involves a lot of 1-2s and interchange. But he is a forward, not an attacking midfielder and does not shoulder the same responsabilities or work-rate and has always been the primary shot-taker for his team because tactically that's the way it's set up.
I reported your post for your blatant dishonesty. For reference: Progressive Passes Rec 1.Kylian Mbappé • France79 2.Ivan Perišić • Croatia63 3.Dani Olmo • Spain61 4.Ángel Di María • Argentina60 5.Ousmane Dembélé • France45 6.Andrej Kramarić • Croatia44 7.Vinicius Júnior • Brazil42 8.David Raum • Germany40 9.Josip Juranović • Croatia38 10.Denzel Dumfries • Netherlands 37Lionel Messi • Argentina37 source: https://fbref.com/en/comps/1/World-Cup-Stats The fact that you fail to respond to the post in a feeble to attempt to disregard the truth right in front of your face is a sign of disrespect toward yourself and this forum. All those numbers are painstakingly drawn from FBREF for further statistics which are very easy to corroborate and I encourage other posters to check for themselves: https://fbref.com/en/comps/1/passing/World-Cup-Stats You are dishonest and a cheat, and you have disqualified yourself. This is the 2022 Messi WC thread, not the COPA or Ligue 1 or whatever thread, so I will not be responding to such a dishonest man any further. Lastly, I made no statement saying Messi is not elite at progressing the ball - so your point is absolutely moot and fails to address both partially or completely anything in the post you tried to shamelessly discredit.
Hahahahahahaha! I can see why you don’t like to use stats. Once again, you are terrible at them and constantly get them wrong. That is the Progressive Passes RECEIVED stat. Take a look at the actual Progressive Passes stat and you’ll find that I am correct. Hilariously, the fact that Messi isn’t very high up in Progressive Passes Received stat is actually indicative of the fact that he’s NOT merely “participatory rather than the driving force for his team.” It’s people who play the furthest forward and wait for others to progress the ball who receive the progressive passes made by others. The fact that you responded with this level of self-righteous outrage when you were completely wrong is just embarrassing for you (and not the first time either, since you made a similar humiliating response when I corrected you about Zidane not dribbling more than Messi). I expect an apology.
I made a mistake with a single statistic and you think that obviates the point? Your dishonesty is available for all to see. The website is referenced and anybody can quickly check those numbers as they are tabulated nicely. There is a mountain of data in that post that is damning, and it is clear that you don't have it in you to deal with it. For you to claim that the numbers are falsified and your pathetic attempt to reject everything else on the basis of a single error provides us with spectacular insight into your dishonest argumentative style. The outrage is absolutely justified and I reported your post. The post will remain as such for all to see.
I expect an apology for your post @SayWhatIWant . I really do. It is utterly ridiculous for you to behave this way. And it gets just completely pathological for you to have no ability to admit that your behavior was unacceptable and abusive when it so clearly was. In terms of the actual discussion (which I really shouldn’t even be having with someone as blatantly toxic as you), I don’t know what else in that post you want me to address. The question we have been discussing is whether Messi is an elite contributor to ball progression. He clearly was in WC 2022 (see above), and I provided data showing that he clearly was in CA 2021 as well as in every single league season we have data for. There’s no way to get around this. Messi is an elite player at ball progression. You are incorrect. You have always been incorrect, and you based your conclusions regarding the actual pertinent question on a false statistic. All of your conclusions stated in the conclusion paragraph of that post are obviated by this statistic having been wrong. If you want to talk about other things—like Griezmann providing more expected assists over a 7-game span in WC 2022 or about percent of shots Messi scored in WC 2022 or whatever—then be my guest, but that doesn’t relate to the question of Messi being an elite progressor of the ball. He is one and so we can simply accept that and move on. If you want to make some other argument using some data you’ve discovered then please let me know in concise terms what it is you’re trying to argue, because it obviously isn’t about the ball-progression question nor can it possibly be an argument found in the conclusion paragraph of your prior post since that conclusion is clearly obviated by the corrected stat.
The post is remaining as is, with no modification including the incorrect statistic, for other posters and moderators to judge the content therein as well as the dodgy, dishonest nature of your subsequent response. Your manner of posting is corrosive to healthy discussion and you will get no apology. As for the statistic you provided, others can refer to where Messi ranks in terms of the progressive distance of his passes - 3rd for his team. His volume of forward passes may be the greatest for his team, but he is not advancing the ball much with his little passes in comparison. His passing completion for long balls was quite poor as well.
The progressive distance stat is dominated by defenders, GK’s, and DM’s since it counts progressive distance in your own half. It’s actually pretty remarkable and telling for an attacking player to be anywhere near the top of their team in that stat. And most forward passes aren’t progressive passes—and certainly not random “little” inconsequential forward passes. A progressive pass definitionally needs to be completed at least 10 yards further up the field than the furthest point it has been in the prior 6 passes, or be completed into the penalty area.
Yes, midfielders tend to progress the ball in their own half quite a lot more than Lionel Messi does. Luckily, my argument has always explicitly been that Messi is an elite progressor of the ball *in the attacking half* rather than his own half. And luckily, the progressive passes stat gets to that question specifically, since it doesn’t include passes in the defending 40% of the pitch. And by that stat, Messi was *easily* #1 on his team and was #2 overall in the tournament.
You are obviously flailing around grasping at straws. We are talking about someone who was #1 on his team by far in progressive passes (and #2 overall in the tournament), #1 on his team in passes into the penalty area, and a close #2 on his team in passes into the attacking third. The overall picture is clearly of an elite player in terms of progression of the ball in the attacking half, who is pretty obviously his team’s most important player overall in this regard. And, as I’ve shown, the same is true of him in other competitions—where he is consistently at or near the top of his leagues (and his team) in these stats. I genuinely don’t understand why you’re arguing about this. As a sidenote, I also want to note that I genuinely don’t understand how you didn’t realize that stat didn’t mean what you thought it did. Having watched Messi and Mbappe play, how could you *possibly* think that Mbappe made more than twice as many progressive passes as Messi and was by far #1 at the World Cup in progressive passes? This is like when you somehow didn’t realize a statistic must not mean what you thought it meant when you thought it was saying Zidane dribbled people substantially more than Messi. These things simply don’t pass a very basic sense check, such that you really just have to be quite delusional and/or hopelessly agenda-driven in your views to fail to immediately realize they must not be correct and that you must be misinterpreting. So these mistakes are really revealing IMO.
Its not a better performance BY ANY MEANS? Even tho Xavi assisted 4 times in that match? You are not geniune at all
Nobody in the broader footballing community references Xavi's match, whereas Zidane's performance has clearly taken a mythic scale. They are not in the same stratosphere in public consciousness.
Do that for 2014 when he actually had a gas tank to not be highly selective about his involvment in a game.. you will quickly eat your words. Messi has highly evolved and is very adaptive. I am pretty sure you will not find two tournaments in which Messi has the same profile because he does what game, in the context of teams' tactics, is asking of him And about passes. Of course modric will have higher percantage of passes going forward than Messi who often comes from the offensive line and lays it off. Gk has more forward passes than striker. Of course And brozovic's long distance passes are sideways rather than forward.
Just adding another bit of my input here: I actually thought/said Messi had a good or very good performance vs Poland this year (I didn't list it in the 'super ATG' performance discussion, but thought he was doing a lot of good and incisive work and in good form in that respect). So maybe that's an occasion where I'd be giving a bit of credit to him in this sort of ballpark. That was a game in which he didn't score or assist (and missed a penalty, or had it saved might be the best way to put it) and was still tied top rated Argentina player, on Sofascore's metric (as much as I've implied I wouldn't always concur with their ratings, even though liking what they've done with the website etc), with Mac Allister who scored a goal (and just behind the Polish GK Szczesny). Maybe that's a little bit akin to Iniesta vs Paraguay 2010 (he did have something of a pre-assist that Sofascore don't recognise....meaning Xavi had something of a pre-pre assist maybe...with Villa scoring eventually, but Sofascore score Iniesta without goals and assists nearly a point behind where they had Messi vs Poland actually) or Zidane vs Italy in 1998 or something (Sofascore go the other way and give him 8.8 without goals and assists though), in that respect?
I'll be very interested in looking at the 2014 data actually. I picked 2022 because it was the topic of the thread and I made the assumption it is the most "playmaking" version of Messi - and the best version we saw in the WC. What the data shows is that in the 2022 WC, Messi does not have the same productivity in front of goal as Mbappe by a significant margin - whether in terms of his goalscoring, finishing, and the actions he undertakes leading to shots on the net. And he has less contribution and responsibility in the development of the offensive phase as dedicated playmakers. That Messi has an elite performance as a forward is unquestionable, and he clearly has a profile in which he is very implicated in the final third - but he does not carry the majority of the responsibility of the playmaking for his team, nor does he do so at a level on par with the very best playmakers on other teams. And those players carry more defensive responsibilities, have a higher workrate, and contribute more in earlier phases of the play. This clearly means that Messi is does not fit the profile of a playmaker who also scores goals at an elite level - but rather a forward with less productivity than Mbappe who is more participatory in the final third. Even the added participation in the final third is not clearly that productive since Dembele is generation more passes into the 18 box than Messi. What I see is a strong overall performance but there is no evidence that A. Messi is the equivalent of Iniesta / Zidane / playmaker if he does not score, and there is no strong evidence that the greater volume of passing is more productive than Mbappe. The data also strongly supports that within the scopes of the Argentinian team Messi's primary responsibility is the goal and final pass. Lastly, the data does not remotely corroborate the impression that this is a footballing performance at an all-time level.
You say people think.., Narrative says... Nobody says.. Majority believe... ...a lot. Dont you have your own opinions? And i will tell you this. Majority is always wrong: Majority of people dont know shit about what they are talking about. Majority of people dont have football skills. Majority of people have no knowledge on tactics. Majority of people are not football experts. Majority of people are not successful football managers. Or more broad note, majority of people are no experts in any field in life. Majority of people have no expertise in anything BY DEFINITION. Majority of people have no valuable opinions and ideas. Majority of people do not innovate or contribute. Majority of people are not financially successful. You are hiding behind opinion of majority football fans and thinking your are all so clever, taking huge pride in that, but that is a sheep behavior to echo opinion of the herd with no original thought, because it is afraid to stand out and potentially be wrong. You can tell me your followers on twitter or youtube search and I will tell you your opinions on every aspect of life without ever talking about it to you which is sad. That doesnt mean that one should always be opposed to popular opinion, but person can at least begin to entertain more nuanced perspective in life than what random football fan Joe says and thinks about Zidane vs Brazil 2006.
Didnt you just say you cant look at key passes out of the context and now you are looking at everything,.. out of the context.
What context is missing? A midfielder playing in a possession dominant team will probably have more key passes by virtue of having more opportunities to provide them. In the analysis, you see that the top teams completed broadly as many passes - In fact, Argentina had the most passes in the tournament by a margin. Pray tell, what context is missing? I went to look for 2014 stats and I cannot find them.
It's a little hard to follow all this, without spending a long time, but I would say it's maybe relevant that Messi didn't score in WC 2010 (I think his role in that particular tournament was set up to be a bit more like an AM than normal wasn't it actually IIRC - perhaps more like a Flamengo-version Zico or something than a Zidane or Platini for example though I think in terms of the role - kind of borderline AM/forward...maybe Totti at Roma when he played behind two strikers would be comparable too?).