Perfomance at the WC: Maradona `1986 vs Messi 2022?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Gregoire1, Dec 20, 2022.

?

Better perfomance

  1. Messi 2022

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Maradona 1986

    50 vote(s)
    86.2%
  1. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    I watched the video in full. It is not by any means a better performance than Zidane vs Brazil. Secondly, even if it was, I am not sure how this contributes to the discussion. Zidane vs Brazil 06 is clearly a mythological game in world football.
     
  2. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Zidane rarely if ever played as a modern AM, nor did Iniesta. In the defensive posture of 06, he was nominally a secondary striker / AM, but that neither represented his role nor positioning. And with Real Madrid he was often deployed as a LM.
    Nobody is disappointed if Messi scores and does not create a bunch of chances. Load of rubbish.
     
  3. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I’ll have to go back and watch videos of a bunch of them to really be able to rank them (including some of the videos I posted earlier—I didn’t actually watch the videos so my recollections of the matches are still years old). But your list is definitely a good one. I can tell you that my personal top 5 will always include his match vs. Venezuela in Copa America 2016, though, just because I was at the game.
     
  4. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #804 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    Iniesta played as more of a AM rather than a CM in plenty of matches, including in Euro 2012 when they had no striker and he was lined up on the forward line. And Zidane did play as an AM a decent bit, especially earlier in his career. And you can look at heat maps and see that the vast majority of their touches (albeit not all) were in the attacking half of the pitch (similar in this regard to Messi). This is in contrast to a true CM like Modric whose heat map is pretty close to 50/50 between the attacking and defending halves of the pitch, or a deep lying playmaker like Pirlo whose heat map shows most of his touches being in the defending half.

    Of course, to some extent, all of this is kind of like trying to fit a square peg to a round hole though, since they’re still obviously all different roles in different tactical systems (including being different year-to-year and match-to-match even for each of these players themselves). Almost no one’s role is exactly the same as another player’s. But I think the role of players like Zidane and Iniesta is substantially closer to Messi’s role (particularly for Argentina and in later years at Barcelona) than it is to someone like Modric’s role.

    As for your last sentence, you’re making a narrow objection to a broader point, and the broader point unquestionably applies (including to you). The point is that Messi is an all-time great at multiple things, so being disappointed in a performance of his if he doesn’t produce in *one* of those areas (but does produce in one or more of the others) often doesn’t make sense and amounts of holding him to a standard that other all-time greats aren’t held to. Most any other all-time great can put in a great dribbling performance where they create a couple/few decent chances and help construct attacks, and it’d be hailed as a really great performance. But Messi gets criticized for such performances. And you undeniably do this, most often with relation to any lack of goalscoring.
     
  5. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    For the majority of their careers, Iniesta (and Zidane) did not play positionally as AM - a position that has largely fallen out of favour as it's a bit of a superfluous role. Zidane with France, outside Euro 2004, largely played a free role that was considerably deeper than say Platini. With Madrid, he was mostly deployed as a LM.

    With respect to your last point, the whole Messi playmaker point is extremely overblown. He is not a CM and not the engine of a team. He does not run much and can often be on the periphery of the construction of the play. Sure, he has the quality to drop deep and offer a solution, but in the scope of a 90 match he is not as consistently involved in that phase of the game. If you tell me I have not watched Messi, I have probably seen on the order of 60 to 70% of his matches since 2007.
     
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  6. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Yeah I wasn't speaking in the context of your point about Zidane, but just offering some thoughts on key passes in general. I wasn't trying to say you were looking at anything out of context.
     
  7. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #807 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    As I said, everyone’s role is different, and I’m not using the term “AM” to mean any super specific role (i.e. not “AM” in the specific Football-Manager-games meaning of the term). The fact is though that we can clearly see from heat map data that Iniesta and Zidane got the vast majority of their touches in the attacking half (take a look at SofaScore’s heat maps for them in NT tournaments), while a player like Modric or Vieira gets about half their touches in the defensive half (and players like Busquets or Makelele get more than half their touches in the defensive half). When a midfielder gets the vast majority of their touches in the attacking half, I think it is fair to broadly speaking call them an AM. The heat maps of Iniesta, Zidane, and Messi are actually quite similar looking—and certainly much more similar than Messi’s heat map looks compared to dedicated strikers or than Iniesta/Zidane’s heat maps look compared to CM’s like Modric. Messi’s role is much more analogous to these sorts of players than you want to admit. Indeed, it’s not just the heat map. All three players also like running at the defense to advance the ball, drifting to the wing to draw in defenders and make space for others, providing the final ball, etc.

    As for Messi not being a CM, that’s a misinterpretation of my point. I’m not suggesting that Messi is the “engine of a team” in the sense of a player like Xavi or Pirlo or someone like that—who are the engine of possession for their team and playmake from deep while virtually always having the most passes on their team. That’s not Messi’s role. He’s not the midfield controller (though his mere presence dropping deep certainly does help the team control the midfield by creating midfield overloads). But it is Messi’s role to be the engine of ball progression in the attacking half—through dribbling, incisive passing, and drawing defenders towards him with the ball in order to create space for others in attacking positions—and to provide the final ball from positions in the attacking half/third. And that also pretty accurately describes the role of players like Zidane and Iniesta. Messi happens to *also* score a lot on top of that (largely through late runs into the box, one-twos around the box, creating chances with his dribbling, etc.), but guys like Zidane and Iniesta can be and were (correctly) praised for performances where they executed this sort of role really well without the scoring (and without providing a lot defensively either, particularly in the case of Zidane), while people like you criticize Messi for the same sort of thing.
     
  8. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
     
  9. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    I disagree strongly with his analysis actually. As a general rule, judging the quality of the performance on the style of pass is a very biased interpretation that does not have much practical meaning. The play is dictated by the team's style, relative positioning of the attacking players, the defensive structure, runs of the attackers, degree of possession and style of possession. What matters is influencing games and determining outcomes positively. The idea that the performance can be distilled to number of key passes does not have any external validity or merit.
     
  10. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    There are heat maps for World Cups on SofaScore. You’ll find that what I said is accurate. For example, here’s heat maps of Zidane in 1998, and Messi and Iniesta in 2010:

    4F6E2384-7748-44C8-9C14-C7CF364D2033.jpeg 383A272E-D183-4261-9293-6CBE7ABD2B1D.jpeg D313ADB1-A114-4EC3-9EB7-C734FCAAE41A.jpeg

    And, in contrast, here’s a heat map of Luka Modric:

    111A42F9-91EC-4CF5-99BE-0D5A7522E59B.jpeg

    Seems pretty obvious which one is the odd one out. Messi’s touches are on average marginally closer, but it’s minor, and Zidane certainly has the vast majority of his touches in the attacking half, while someone like Modric does not.
     
  11. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    And let’s compare that to heat maps of players when playing as dedicated strikers/goalscorers. Here’s Cristiano Ronaldo in La Liga in 2017-2018, and Erling Haaland this season in the EPL:

    766E6F48-2654-4311-8B3D-E370279F6CCB.jpeg 056074CA-1818-4148-8BF6-9C3403E9567D.jpeg

    As I said, it’s very obvious that Messi’s heat map is *much* more similar to Zidane/Iniesta’s than it is to dedicated goalscorers, and it is also obvious that Zidane/Iniesta’s heat map is much more similar to Messi’s than to CM’s like Modric.
     
  12. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Thanks for the resource. This actually entirely strongly corroborates my impression. Modric and Zidane`s heatmaps in the opposition half are the most comparable, contrary to what you are suggesting. Zidane's ball reception clusters towards the halfway-line while Modric is a box-to-box with more defensive responsabilities. These are heatmaps, not maps of where they are receiving the ball. Messi is clearly operating far closer to the net than Iniesta as well. So I am not sure what you are seeing.
     
  13. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    This is a very poor interpretation. Messi does not have the physicality to play in the box and receive crosses and the like. The players you are discussing are 6foot plus players who contend and occupy CBs and can receive crosses. So he operates on the periphery of the box (ie. false 9 / inside forward). That does not mean he is not the primary finisher for the team and the attacker. You are making an egregious error in interpretation. You are conflating style with role.
    And no, the heatmaps you provided for Messi vs. Iniesta vs. Zidane are all markedly different.
     
  14. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #814 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    You keep denying that Messi plays a certain role when the data pretty clearly shows that he does. Someone who regularly is at or near the top of the world (and, of course, his team) in progressive passes, passes into the attacking third, and passes into the penalty area, while also dribbling more than virtually anyone is very obviously a major driver of ball progression in the attacking half. You are acting like he’s just a player who perhaps makes lots of final balls (and scores goals) but isn’t really involved in ball progression, but that’s just manifestly contradicted by data.

    You can say he is a defensive liability and Iniesta isn’t, but the idea that he’s “far less participatory in the complexion of a match” is odd given the above and the fact that Messi and Iniesta spent a long time playing for the same team and we know their numbers of passes per match (let alone touches) were generally pretty similar—with Messi even being occasionally ahead in certain seasons. For instance, in that great 2010-2011 season, Messi averaged 68 passes per match in La Liga and Iniesta averaged 78. The next year it was 64 for Messi and 58 for Iniesta (but Iniesta was a sub a few more times, so it was closer to even on a per minute basis I’d say). This really isn’t the picture of two players with way different levels of involvement in attacking play.

    I really just don’t know what to say if you look at those heat maps and conclude that it “strongly corroborates” your previously stated view that Zidane is not “in the opposition half for the majority of his play” or that Zidane’s or Iniesta’s role and positioning is much more similar to Modric’s than to Messi’s. The heat maps speak for themselves, and plainly contradict what you were trying to claim—including not just that Zidane was mostly in his own half, but also more generally the idea that Zidane and Iniesta were CM’s that played wildly different roles with wildly different positioning than Messi.

    Messi gets his touches marginally closer to the goal on average, particularly as compared to Zidane (not so much as compared to Iniesta). But it’s definitely pretty similar (certainly much more so than it is to the average touches of Modric or Ronaldo/Haaland). And even that relatively minor difference is just in part a difference inherent in the fact that average touches for players in similar roles will be a little further back in a more counterattacking system (which France did have as compared to Argentina), where the whole team’s average position will generally be a bit further back. Indeed, given that context, if their touches were in the exact same spots, it’d be suggestive of Zidane playing a *more* attacking role.

    Okay, how about Sergio Aguero and Luis Suarez (neither one being noted target men or headers of the ball)?

    290C7F3A-ED4B-422B-B806-A177F8738614.jpeg 721F9954-56F5-4AD3-8107-3D14209C664C.jpeg

    You’re just not correct. It’s very obvious that Messi’s positioning is closer to Zidane/Iniesta type of players than it is to a dedicated goalscorer. You can argue this as much as you want, but I think any reasonable person who looks at these heat maps can see that I am right (of course, they could also see it just by watching the players).

    Also, even taking as given what you said, it’s quite obvious that someone who “operates on the periphery of the box” is not a dedicated goalscorer, and clearly has substantial other responsibilities/contributions.
     
  15. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    I think maybe we are agreeing? Unless I misunderstand. I'm saying the key passes statistic can be misleading of the actual value being provided without context.
     
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  16. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #816 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    As another example, using different players that are clearly attacking midfield players rather than dedicated goalscorers, let’s take heat maps of David Silva and Kevin De Bruyne in EPL seasons:

    5068B06B-D3E4-4EE7-A4B3-8B057CBEEF64.jpeg 7041D254-3BBC-4E75-B3A3-30A77E103376.jpeg

    I’ll also just include the Iniesta and Zidane ones again for reference:

    CD282EB4-74B4-433D-9F3A-7814011AE1CD.jpeg B8C1FE6B-6E11-488C-B504-AE4703A3EF90.jpeg

    Now let’s compare these again to Messi. I provided a WC heat map already, but I’ll provide four more Messi heat maps—two from Copa Americas, one from last year’s Champions League campaign, and one from WC 2014:

    6551EF64-CB44-4481-B4E9-8BAC7D1DA851.jpeg 8B1924D3-1747-48C9-A856-A8C5998E4208.jpeg 55303D1B-98BF-4678-8E0E-35F5F31BDE6C.jpeg

    135A1FE6-CD84-41AD-BD4B-EC37815C374A.jpeg

    It is manifestly obvious that these are all players with fairly comparable positioning. Silva and De Bruyne track back a bit more and Zidane gets his touches a little bit further back on average (reflecting in part playing in a more counterattacking, less possession-based system), but it’s all broadly speaking pretty similar (and actually very far from clear that Messi’s average positioning is the furthest forward of the bunch). Meanwhile, we have wildly different heat maps of a CM like Modric:

    43D3B1FD-B3B6-4098-80A6-96B35A4DB2BB.jpeg

    Or the heat maps of dedicated goalscorers, like Cristiano Ronaldo, Haaland, Suarez, and Aguero, which I posted above (can’t attach more than one here because of 10 attachment limit—but below is Suarez’s), which are plainly completely different too, due to the wildly different percent of the touches being in the box.

    7654438D-2046-42CE-877C-19639C3967EE.jpeg

    This all speaks for itself. It is obvious that Messi is more similar in positioning/role to the Iniesta/Zidane/De Bruyne/Silva players than he is to the Ronaldo/Haaland/Suarez/Aguero types of players. And, conversely, it’s also obvious that those Iniesta/Zidane/De Bruyne/Silva types of players are more similar in positioning/role to Messi than they are to someone like Modric. Anyone with eyes can see that from these heat maps (or just from having watched the players).
     
  17. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    your point about the Heatmap is fair. But something that has to be taken into account is that Messi is also Argentina's main finisher. If you look at the Heatmap of Julian Alvarez and Di Maria in the game against France they are on the left side of the box while Messi steps much more into the box than either of them. Of course, that doesn't negate the fact that Messi is involved in the progression of the ball and in giving the final ball. But it is undeniable that he is Argentina's main finisher. He already played like that at the time of the MSN trio with Suarez leaving the box for Messi to enter. Neymar playing on the left wing like a classic winger going to the bottom line and dribbling. The Barcelona's system had Messi as the focal point in the progression of the ball and also in finishing. Most of the finishes were made by Messi. In Argentina too. As for Zidane, he literally plays like a classic #10 behind 3 forwards. See the average positioning of France players in the game against Brazil in 2006 Zidane is behind Henry, Ribery and Malouda. As for Messi's average positioning in the game against France, he is the closest Argentine player to the goal.

    Screenshot_20230130-205729.png

    Screenshot_20230130-205707.png
     
  18. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    For reference as well, this is Zidane in WC 2006. Not particularly different than anything else (maybe slightly closer positioning to the goal than in WC 1998, but also a bit more touches in his own half, but not meaningfully different overall IMO), but feels worth adding for completeness sake:

    1E8089B4-9DB3-41FF-B66E-ED495A68F07D.jpeg
     
  19. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Zidane's role in WC 2006 would be better compared to Xavi's role in Spain 2010. Iniesta played more like a left winger/inside forward. Xavi played like a classic #10 in front of a Double Pivot and behind 3 forwards with Villa being the main finisher while Pedro and Iniesta played as wingers. In the case of Zidane's France he played as a classic #10 in front of a Double Pivot and behind 3 forwards with Henry being the main finisher and Ribery and Malouda playing as wingers.
     
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  20. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    These are fair points, but I think there’s a few important points regarding this:

    1. The main thing I’m meaning to demonstrate with these heat maps is that Messi typically has positioning that is much deeper than is being recognized, which goes to the point that he is really heavily involved in progressing the ball (and therefore can have a really good game by virtue of doing that really well). You essentially acknowledge that here, so I don’t think we disagree about this, but just wanted to note that that’s the primary point I’m making.

    2. There’s a big difference between being a dedicated goalscorer and being someone who plays in much deeper positioning but does still get a lot of goalscoring opportunities through their own ingenuity and nose for late runs into the box. Messi is certainly able to get goalscoring opportunities (otherwise, he’d not score so many goals!), but the ways he gets goals are different than a dedicated goalscorer. His goals are much more likely from things like (1) dribbling past people and launching a shot, often from just outside the box; (2) dribbling and making one-twos with forwards in front of him in the box to get himself an opening for an in-the-box shot; (3) making smart late runs into the box from midfield that allow him to get on the end of a good sequence (which is often a sequence he was involved in earlier); and (4) free kick goals + penalties. These are the types of goals that attacking midfielders typically get, not dedicated goalscorers. He’s better at all this stuff than the typical attacking midfielder, so he ends up getting more of these opportunities (and teammates obviously will look for his late runs, since they know he’s a great finisher). Thus, he scores a lot more goals. But, it doesn’t really mean that he’s not playing more of an attacking midfield role. For instance, if Messi has a match where he progresses the ball really well and playmakes well, but none of his late runs get him in a spot to score and he isn’t able to use dribbling/one-twos to get himself a goal, how is that any different than a really great match from a great attacking midfielder who rarely is able to make great late runs for goals or use dribbling/one-twos to score? It seems to me that Messi is largely just an attacking midfielder who is freakishly good at scoring the types of goals attacking midfielders score. But since attacking midfielders can have great matches without scoring, so can Messi.

    3. More as a question, I wonder if the data you’re providing there about positioning is based on player tracking rather than touches? Because, if so, I imagine Messi would be positioned on average the furthest forward just by virtue of not really tracking back as much on defense, even if he’s not the furthest ahead on average when attacking. Messi really doesn’t generally play in attack with no one in front of him (presumably because to do so would be to neuter his own playmaking ability).
     
  21. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Also @Isaías Silva Serafim I think you make a good point about teammates’ positioning. Messi doesn’t always play with a dedicated goalscorer—though there was a major exception with Suarez for several years (indeed, the heat map I showed of Suarez was from his time with Messi—he was in the box quite a lot, and moreso than Messi), and lesser exceptions of Ibrahimovic for a year and Higuain for Argentina. For Argentina, in this past WC, you’re right to point out that they didn’t really play with a dedicated goalscorer (Lautaro Martinez was close to one when he played, but he was bad and therefore didn’t play all the time).

    What Messi’s teams often do—including Argentina 2022 much of the time—is just be quite fluid about who occupies that central role. Sometimes it’s Messi. But many times its also guys playing as inside forwards who make diagonal runs to occupy that space (guys like Villa, Pedro, Di Maria, Neymar, Alexis Sanchez, Alvarez, Henry, etc. have all done this). It also sometimes is the midfielders running from deep (Xavi used to do this a decent bit, for instance, particularly in the 2011-2012 season when Barcelona had no in-form inside forward players). So the system is often fluid (though a good bit less so when he’s played with Suarez, Higuain, or Ibrahimovic), with no individual person getting a particularly notable percent of their touches in the box like a true striker would. The fact that Messi does occupy the central forward space a fair bit does mean that his role *should* perhaps result in a bit more goalscoring than the average attacking midfielder (Note though: other AM’s do this a decent bit too—since almost all systems have fluidity—so we aren’t comparing Messi doing this to players who never do). But the fact remains that a player who is basically an attacking midfielder who sometimes occupies the central area in a fluid system (and it really is *sometimes* as demonstrated by those heat maps) should not be *expected* to score like a dedicated goalscorer in order to be considered to have had a great game.
     
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  22. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    We don't disagree with your point that Messi is not a "dedicated goalscorer". I agree with you on that point that Messi is involved in the building game and ball progression. I think Messi is expected to score goals because the team plays around him so that all shots go to him. Throughout his career, every time Messi played with a #9, that #9 had to play a more mobile role and leave the area to attract the defense and create space for Messi. In 2009 Eto'o and Henry became wingers so that Messi could keep the goals. In 2010 Ibrahimovic became a winger so that Messi could keep the goals. In 2011 Villa turned winger so that Messi could keep the goals. In 2015 Suarez practically played a top role where he started the game being the reference but left the area for Messi to enter. In the selection the same happened. Higuain, Tevez, Aguero, Lautaro, Julian Alvarez, etc... don't play like a pure #9. They play leaving the area and attracting the defense so that Messi keeps the goals. Di Maria, Neymar, Sanchez, etc... played like dribblers who go to the bottom line and cross. That's why Messi is expected to score the goals. Because that's his job. And even players who play as "dedicated goalscorers" in their clubs, need to change roles when playing with Messi. Because in Barça and Argentina, most shots are for Messi.

    The images I sent show the average player positioning with and without the ball. They are available on the sofascore app.
     
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  23. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @lessthanjake This is different with Zidane and Xavi because they are not the main finishers of their teams. In Spain Villa could play like a pure #9 and keep the goals. So you can't expect Xavi to score goals. Unless Villa left the area attracting the defense for Xavi to enter and finish. The same applies to Zidane. Henry was the "dedicated goalscorer". Henry didn't attract the defense for Zidane to come in and finish like he did for Messi in Barcelona. So this cannot be charged to Zidane as it is charged to Messi
     
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  24. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    It’s not really entirely true though that “the team plays around him so that all shots go to him.” Indeed, he’s very often positioned as a playmaker who can make the final ball or dribble towards the defense, while other players occupy the central area further forward in order to take advantage of that and score. This means those other players get a lot of touches in the box and goalscoring opportunities. For instance, this is how Suarez scored 59 goals in a season for Barcelona. For reference, here’s the heat maps for Suarez, Neymar, and Messi respectively in that season:

    3E5145C3-773E-45CA-B3E6-93FD582E3386.jpeg F46704D8-4312-4706-BE77-5B3D74C45655.jpeg DBBE4465-6D15-42A9-BE36-47E3E1E26B7A.jpeg


    Messi is not the one occupying that central forward area the most—indeed it’s pretty clearly Suarez and Neymar occupying it more (with Neymar’s occupation of the central areas obviously largely being from diagonal runs from the left inside forward position). Indeed, the three players had very similar numbers of shots—with Messi having slightly more total shots than the other two, but actually the least shots of the three inside the box (Messi had 93 shots in the box and 65 outside it; Neymar had 96 shots in the box and 28 outside it; Suarez had 121 shots in the box and 16 outside it).

    And a lot of Messi’s shots in the box (and just outside it) are actually from sequences where he’s not filling the central forward area, but is instead making one-twos on the edge of the area with that player who is in the central forward position in order to get himself a shot, or making a late run into (or towards) the box behind the striker like a midfielder does. These are extremely common Messi shots/goals, and while obviously his teams are set up to let him try to do this (forwards sometimes post up their defender to do the one-twos, and people look for his late runs), these are attacking-midfielder kind of goals.
     
  25. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Specifically in the 15/16 season, Suarez was Barcelona's "dadicated goalscorer" (and look what happened). In the 14/15 season Messi had the finishing number of Suarez and Neymar combined. If you add up the 3 seasons the trio played together, Messi had 100 more shots than any of them. So in general, Suarez played a role of attracting the defense to open space for Messi
     
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