March 2023: Nations League. The Rebuild

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Eleven Bravo, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. JUnionFan

    JUnionFan Member+

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Sep 30, 2020
    It's really not that simple, there's 0 geographical argument for letting us get out of these types of competitions. And while it seems important to us, federations like UEFA or COMEMBOL also have 0 reason to pander to us and let us in or guarantee us games against their teams either.

    The entire structure of world football is so inherently against what you want to do it's pretty disingenuous to be like "ah USSF just needs to try harder man, they are so lazy."
     
  2. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the bigger problem is CONCACAF won't want to let us out. UEFA let Qatar into World Cup qualifying and they are letting CONMEBOL into Nations League. They aren't against letting people in. And the appeal of the US is the size of our market.

    And CONMEBOL wants to do the Copa America in the US because they know they'll make incredible amounts of money from doing so.
     
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  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    There is a zero percent chance we're leaving CONCACAF.
    And if we're in CONCACAF, that means we're playing the Nations League and Gold Cup.

    Its amazing to me how much we struggle against CONCACAF, particularly on the road...................and then I have to listen to people say CONCACAF is "beneath us." Clearly it's not. It's this kind of hubris that repeatedly gets us in trouble. Do people watch Mexico? They don't roll thru CONCACAF either.

    If we get to the point at which we think the Nations League doesn't have value for our "A" team, then we send a "B" team to it. A pretty strong USMNT roster just drew with El Salvador in the last Nations League window. So....................

    Since we don't have WCQing this cycle, that opens up a lot of FIFA windows for us. Of course, the other federations have Nations League/WCQing in those windows. So finding opponents isn't going to be easy. The lowest hanging fruit is to try to get into Copa America. But that's TOTALLY up to CONMEBOL. If they say no, then they say no.
     
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  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    It reminds me of the LigaMX fans who are obsessed with trying to get into Libertadores now that MLS teams are beating them in CCL.
     
  5. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    It sounds like a great idea for USMNT and MLS clubs to play in South America more. Until one really digs into the distance and travel that would entail.

    Seattle to Buenos Aries (just pulled that out of my ass) is 7000 miles.

    People should just see what's 7000 miles from London. What is that? Hong Kong?

    There's a reason that a nation like Argentina also basically has a domestic national team, and then an "A" national team that plays most of its friendlies overseas.

    That's what is likely to happen. If our national team group is based in Europe, we'll schedule more and more friendlies in Europe. Not in South America for heaven's sake.
     
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  6. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Yeah, that's the practical reason. I do think a Libertadores - CCL mini-cup in a neutral location would be fun -- maybe a four team playoff of the teams who were in the Finals.

    But I was more just saying that it seems like the less dominant LigaMX is in CONCACAF, the MORE they seem to think they are above it, and need to be in CONMEBOL.
     
  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Collaboration between CONCACAF and CONMEBOL makes sense.

    CONMEBOL has the prestige and history.
    CONCACAF (particularly the three North American nations)......................has the money.

    But the Gold Cup and Nations League ARE NOT beneath us. And if the day comes when they are for our "A" team, then we send a young/fringe team to challenge new players. I would add, though, that much of CONCACAF is continuing to improve as well. This idea that we're going to just rocket away, leaving CONCACAF in our wake, is far-fetched to me. And because of the way the Gold Cup, Nations League, and WCQing are now set up...............we actually play very few games against the true minnows anyway.
     
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  8. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    After last night, I’d say, call in Cade Cowell, Alejandro Zendejas, and Brandon Vazquez into this camp. They look ready for a shot with the big boys.

    Maybe Gabriel Slonina. But this camp may already be leaning Horvarth, Steffen, and Turner.

    Maybe Alan Sonora. But it’s not make or break. He’s Luca De La Torre 2.0, in my opinion, which is a compliment.

    Paxton Pomykal, Eryk Williamson, and DeJuan Jones did enough to get called in when we need to stretch our depth in the summer. But they’re not knocking down the door to be involved in March.

    I love Julian Gressel from his Atlanta days. But his lack of speed was exploited last night and you could see that he doesn’t have it. I think we would be better off just pulling the plug, and looking elsewhere. He doesn’t have “it” for this stage, and he’s not going to get faster or more agile.

    Aiden Morris seemed a little too Wil Trapp or Jackson Yuiell is my ceiling for me. Maybe, he gets another call up if we get really desperate. But I didn’t see anything there that seemed special.

    Although still promising, Jonathan Gomez and Jalen Neal need to go back in the oven. I think they should focus on the u20’s/u23’s for now.

    Matthew Hoppe might end up being the next Sebastian Soto if he isn’t careful. MLS might be his best bet, to be honest.

    You know what you’re getting with Zimmermann, Long, Acosta, and Arriola.
     
  9. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Updated roster....

    injured: Christian Pulisic, Bryan Reynolds, Sam Vines, Miles Robinson

    GOALKEEPERS: Matt Turner, Ethan Horvath, Zack Steffen

    FULLBACKS: Sergino Dest, Jedi Robinson, Reggie Cannon, Joe Scally

    CENTER BACKS: Chris Richards, Auston Trusty, Mark McKenzie, Erik Palmer-Brown, Cameron Carter-Vickers

    MIDFIELDERS: Tyler Adams, Weston McKennie, Yunus Musah, Brenden Aaronson, Malik Tillman, Johnny Cardoso, Taylor Booth

    WINGERS: Tim Weah, Gio Reyna, Alejandro Zendejas, Cade Cowell, Kevin Paredes

    FORWARDS: Brandon Vazquez, Ricardo Pepi, Daryl Dike (unless Balogun accepts)

    Alternates: Gabriel Slonina, John Tolkin, DeJuan Jones, Tim Ream (omit), Aaron Long (omit), Jalen Neal, Jonathan Gomez, Julian Gressel, Walker Zimmerman (omit), Aiden Morris, Kelyn Acosta, Paul Arriola, Alan Sonora, Paxton Pomykal, Eryk Williamson, Djordje Mihailovic, Paxten Aaronson, Jordan Pefok, Josh Sargent, Jesus Ferreira, Haji Wright

    Vs El Salvador
    ——————-Vazquez—————
    Reyna——————————Weah
    ————Musah——-McKennie——
    ———————Adams——————
    Jedi————————————Dest
    ————-CCV———-Richards———
    ———————Turner———————

    Subs: Cannon (Dest), Tillman (McKennie), Booth (Musah), Paredes (Weah), Aaronson (Reyna)

    At Grenada
    ———————Pepi————————
    Aaroson—————————Zendejas
    ————Musah——-McKennie———-
    ———————Adams———————-
    Jedi—————————————Scally
    ————Trusty———-McKenzie———-
    ———————Horvath————————

    Subs: EPB (Trusty/McKenzie), Cardoso (Adams), Aaronson (Musah), Cowell (Zendejas), Dike (Pepi)
     
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  10. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    understanding that consistency is an important factor, and his debut was very likely a top of his ability performance (currently) i agree on cowell. im agnostic on the other two.

    but gk is just so up in the air for me. turner is both our clear number one and not a starter- thats not awesome. theres not a world between horvath and steffen. ill be overly diplomatic and include johnson.

    i just dont see the logic in taking turner plus two of those next three guys. i mean, i see it i just dont ascribe to it. it makes way more sense (for me) to go turner, one of those next three guys and then one of slonina and mls keeper tbd. i think celentano is the most "ready, but pulskamp, brady, someone else? not really gonna lose sleep over that one.

    my problem is i cant see slonina playing this year, possibly next, short of a league one loan. im not trying to rain on anyones parade but i think theres close to zero chance he starts for a colaship side this season. and i dont think vitese or whatever clearly beats out clentano at nycfc.

    i dunno, i just think turner, backup, young guy is a template id like to see- and one other factor in celentanos favor is that mls is a positive factor for a third keeper. theres always going to be times we cant have overseas alternatiives. and by the time slonina needs to be integrated at that third keeper level he will be playing somewhere.

    so, turner, steffen and celentano would be my call right now. steffen because i do think we need to actually see if hes going to be ok as our number 2 or not. i think its pretty crappy to just assume he wont handle it fine-great, and its not like him throwing a fit is going to derail a nl window. plus i think hes going to be in a better spot/higher comp than horvath next year, which is de facto higher upside.

    thus ends the most ive ever talked about second- and for damn sure third- keepers in my life.
     
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  11. Boysinblue

    Boysinblue Member

    Jul 31, 2011
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #61 Boysinblue, Jan 29, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2023
    My 27 man roster

    ST(3): Pepi, Sargent, Vazquez/Wright/Dike
    WG(5): Reyna, Weah, B. Aaronson, Tillman, Zendejas
    CM(5): McKennie, Musah, Booth, Mihailovic, Acosta
    DM(2): Adams, Tessmann
    FB(4): A. Robinson, Jones/Tolkin, Dest, Scally
    CB(5): Ream, Richards, CCV, EPB, McKenzie/Zimmerman/Trusty
    GK(3): Turner, Steffen, Horvath/Celentano

    Between Tillman, Booth, and Mihailovic I'd try out at least one of them as an 8/10, not sure which and I didn't put much thought between classifying them as wingers/CMs. Acosta barely squeaked in, though I really want to bring in an alternative backup for Adams, and don't trust Johnny(I'll admit I haven't seen him play in Brazil so I'm fine with calling him) so I landed on Tessmann. If a U20 camp isn’t held, add Paredes and Slonina.
     
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  12. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Updated.....

    Note: didn’t call in any u20’s (let them prepare for the u20 World Cup)
    Note: Pulisic, Reynolds, De la Torre, Vines, and Miles are still on my injury list.
    Note: Exchanged some of the A team for some new faces.


    GOALKEEPERS: Matt Turner, Ethan Horvath, Zack Steffen

    FULLBACKS: Sergino Dest, Jedi Robinson, DeJuan Jones, John Tolkin, Joe Scally

    CENTER BACKS: Chris Richards, Auston Trusty, Erik Palmer-Brown, Mark McKenzie, Cameron Carter-Vickers

    MIDFIELDERS: Weston McKennie, Yunus Musah, Tyler Adams, Brenden Aaronson, Taylor Booth, Johnny Cardoso, Richie Ledezma / Djordje Mihailovic / Alex Mendez

    WINGERS: Gio Reyna, Tim Weah, Malik Tillman, Kevin Paredes, Alejandro Zendejas (invite)

    FORWARDS: Ricardo Pepi, Brandon Vazquez, Daryl Dike, Folarin Balogun (invite)

    Vs El Salvador
    ———————Pepi————————
    Paredes———Reyna—————Weah
    ———-McKennie——-Adams————
    Jedi—————————————Dest
    ————Trusty————-Richards———
    ————————Turner———————-

    Subs: Jones (Jedi), Cardoso (Adams), Tillman (Reyna), Zendejas / Booth (Paredes), Dike (Pepi)

    At Grenada
    ———————Vazquez———————
    Reyna—————Tillman————Aaronson
    ————Musah————Adams————
    Tolkin—————————————-Scally
    ————McKenzie———CCV—————
    ———————Steffen———————

    Subs: EPB (McKenzie), Dike (Vazquez), Paredes (Tillman), Weah (Reyna), Booth / Zendejas (Musah)
     
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  13. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    is there anything stopping USSF from sending a bteam to nations league

    while simultaneously scheduling better friendly games for the a team??

    if that is legal its what i would do
     
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  14. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Legal? Yes.
    Sensible NO.

    Actually if we form a true "A" "B" team setup will will almost assure that there will be resentment of the "B" team for the "A" team and, probably a lot of in team arguing and bickering.

    Also few friendlies are truly valuable as the matches mean nothing.

    I would rather the USA plays a competitive match against Hatti than a friendly against Argentina or France.
     
  15. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i dont mean to make some permanent scarlett letter situation...could be a way for the lesser players to work up in the team....

    but to send the fringe players for the worthless matches vs concacaf......

    I disagree with you...much rather have actual a team friendlies vs arg or france than nations league vs concacaf

    just bc friendlies arent turly valuable doesnt make these concacaf slopfests valuable either
     
  16. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    It's not -- you can be punished by FIFA/your federation and we would be.
     
  17. JUnionFan

    JUnionFan Member+

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Sep 30, 2020
    Why would ARG or FRA work to fit us into their busy windows with their own competitive games they do care about?
     
  18. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the average rank of opponents for USMNT under berhalter was like 55th in the world....which is a problem

    theres a lot of room between 55 and top 2 to improve the level of competition

    are you seriously interpreting my comment as france or arg or nothing else???

    get a grip
     
  19. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    if these nations league matches were so valuable then why is the federation hoping to have a coach in place by the end of the summer??? these concacaf matches are meaningless (and its ridiculous to think it would take 8 months to find a coach for the USMNT
     
  20. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    While the pathetic coaching search and the matches that get scheduled do seem related they really are not much. I think friendlies, particularly without a reasonable a coach in place, are even more worthless that playing CONCACRAP matches that actually at least inspire some players to play their best. If we do not have a real coach then, maybe, we just should not play any matches unless we do not play our top 30% of our players thereby reducing the possibility of injury to those valuable players.
    If we field an entire team picked out of the MLS or other crappy leagues then injuries do not matter except to the pathetic clubs involved and, of course, to the players themselves so we can and should play matches that way, maybe.
    I do not see the point of a extended coaching search either. The last time we took a lot of time to find a coach we ended up with Gregg Berhalter who has proved to me to be one of the worst in game coaches we have ever had. I kind of think we are currently aiming to repeat that process and will end up with a coach that cannot coach any better.

    Until we actually have a coach any matches we play are meaningless as far as setting up for the World Cup so it really does not matter who plays at all.
     
  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    You overrate friendlies against big names that aren't trying; I had to listen to years of people telling me Julian Green was great for scoring against a French team that clearly wasn't trying 100% until they went down in 2018.

    Quality opposition matters, but so does being in matches that mean something. I doubt there's going to be any intensity or even A teams in March friendlies four months after the World Cup, and in June UEFA has Nations League just like us.

    As for the coach, I don't want to rush a Sporting Director hire or a Coach. After 3.5 years of complaining about Berhalter, I don't understand the angst at trying to do it right.

    I have some concerns about the search process, but taking until the summer to lock someone down isn't one of them. Hopefully, they move quicker and this timeline was more of managing expectations.
     
  22. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    The hideously long search we had the last time resulted in us finding a third rate coach that has only had real success in the MLS and that "success" was marginal at best.
    It only takes a long time to find a decent coaching fit if the people conducting the search are both incompetent and unmotivated. That seems to describe much of USA soccer. Since Cindy Cone says she is taking part in the process this time maybe it will be different but, so far, it seems that "the song remains the same." I wonder if she, or any president, really gives a reasonable effort. Being unpaid and therefore needing an income elsewhere could make that position ineffective because of time or other constraints.
    I have never trusted elected but unpaid people at any level.
    Yes their motivations "might" be good but it is nearly impossible for anyone to do a really good job at almost anything if their only motivations are simply the desire to do good.

    I do not trust USA soccer to do anything that really enhances the USA national team. It is almost like we are selecting coaches by committee or as the result of an extended conference.
    unknown but first seen in the '50s or so.

    Fred Allen
     
  23. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We actually had a stronger-than-average friendly schedule last cycle compared to other World Cup teams. In fact, we had a stronger friendly schedule than any other non-UEFA team in the World Cup. The fact that everyone's friendly schedules were weaker outside of UEFA is a direct result of UEFA largely taking themselves out of the pool of friendly opponents for other confederations.
     
  24. The Clientele

    The Clientele Member+

    Portland Timbers
    Jun 25, 2005
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unless I’m missing something, isn’t the Nations league pretty much a repeat of the gold cup, right?

    Two back-to-back gold cups is not a formula for improvement for us!
     
  25. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Yeah, but Europe has their own Nations League, etc. in these windows. Then they have the Euro qualifiers, Euros themselves, then the WCQers start.

    We can't just schedule games against elite Euro opponents because we want to. It's difficult.

    If you want to play France, it sounds like a great idea. France has played one friendly since March of 2022. Since then it was their Nations League, the World Cup, and now in 2023 its their UEFA qualifying. Maybe they have an opening in September.

    Of course, France refuses to play us. We've played 4 times in history. By far the least we've played any major European nation. And they haven't played on US soil since 1979 after the disastrous series of friendlies.

    The USMNT's all time record against France: 1 draw 3 losses.
     

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