Olympics and Copa: Do We Prioritize One?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Maximum Optimal, Jan 29, 2023.

  1. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Yes. Your arugment is simply "it's really important because a few big stars like to go." It's still a minor tournament, with a small handful of stars playing amidst a bunch of players who aren't fit for a top flight first team.
     
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  2. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    It's rumored that some have availed themselves of the free condoms in the Olympic Village.
     
  3. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    I think that to many, that’s what the Olympics may be about. Gold medals for everyone.
     
  4. NietzscheIsDead

    NietzscheIsDead Member+

    NO WAR
    United States
    May 31, 2019
    NO WAR
    Forget the public…its about the experience for those guys.
     
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  5. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Frankie Hejduk looks good with that medal.
     
  6. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think there’s no question you prioritize the Copa America.

    For one, assuming it gets on the international calendar, teams will be required to release players for it. That is not the case for the Olympics and getting European players released might be tricky given that it runs up against European preseason. I’m hopeful that European teams might be more amenable with it being in France, but we’ll see.

    The Copa America is also a chance for our first team to play in an international tournament against teams like Argentina and Brazil. In a tournament they care about a ton and they’ll be bringing all their best guys. How often do we get that opportunity? It’s the closest we’ll be able to get over the next cycle to playing the sorts of games you play in the World Cup. The Olympics is a good tournament, but it’s still primarily U23 teams who are dealing with the same release issues.

    We send the best possible team we can to the Copa America and we do our best to try and win it. And we send the best U23 team we can to the Olympics, with the best 3 overage players left over from guys who didn’t play in the Copa America. I could see a Walker Zimmerman going as an overage player for instance. The question of whether anyone would play in both is not likely to matter as I can’t imagine many clubs would release a player for the Olympics after they had already played in the Copa America the same summer.

    Releases are going to be a tricky thing for the Olympics. We’ll probably get any MLS player we want, but getting European players released for it is going to be very hit or miss.
     
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  7. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    One consideration is that the Euro-based players will be in better shape (assuming no injuries) for Copa. They will be coming off their off-season for the Olympics, plus Olympics might mean missing pre-season with their clubs.

    I do wonder if a small number might play both. I think it is crazy to do that from a player health perspective but sometimes guys get swept up in the moment.
     
  8. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #33 Clint Eastwood, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    Its not really prioritizing one or the other.
    We have a strong group that we can send to both.

    That being said..................Copa America is the higher level of competition.
    And it's at home. You send your "A" team to Copa America.

    There won't be any debate about this within the USSF and USMNT staff.

    Without WCQing, Copa America will be our biggest chance to get our BEST team together in games that matter. Consider it a World Cup practice run. We can't do that for the Olympics.

    However, our pool is expanding in such a way that we can still send an extremely good group to the Olympics.

    I mean, these events are also more than a year away. A lot can happen to a pool in a year. A lot of bubbling up and down. New players emerging to add quality depth to the group. The players that make up the 2023 U20 group are the prime examples. By 2024 they'll be ready for the U23 Olympics. Paxten Aaronson, Cade Cowell, Jack McGlynn, Jalen Neal, etc. etc. and friends.

    I know its tempting to say "the Olympics are a big deal in the US, and it would be high profile to win it." Yes, high profile in the way that people are passionate about watching the US win swimming medals at the Olympics. They don't then watch another swim meet for four years. They're Olympics fans, not swimming fans.

    I mean, Mexico does well at the Olympic football tournament. They got the bronze last time. What does it mean? Absolutely squadoosh. I bet 95% of the people on this US board didn't know Mexico won the bronze last time.
     
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  9. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Agreed with the first sentence.

    I can see the logic of prioritizing Copa. The case for the Olympics getting priority is more emotional. Some overage players might lobby for a spot on the Olympics squad.
     
  10. theboogeyman

    theboogeyman Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    No offense man, but you come off as naive by taking reports about those guys wanting to play in the Olympics as evidence that they care about it nearly as much as the Copa America or World Cup. Of course I wasn’t being literal when I said nobody cares.

    look at this speech from Messi:

    This is the senior Argentina team, with all its best available players, going against their equivalents from Brazil. The intensity and importance do not compare to the Olympics, which is a U 23 tournament without many of the best eligible players.

    When you hear people debate Messi vs Ronaldo, they’ll talk about champions league, and the World Cup, and Copa America/Euros, but you don’t hear anyone discuss the Olympics because they’re completely irrelevant at the highest level of soccer.

    it’s confusing to me that this is even a question.
     
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  11. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The Copa America is the highest level of competition we'll face in games that matter from now until WC2026. [Unless we somehow get an invite to the Euros or something.]

    Its also at home. Not only is it our highest level of competition.............it will be a "practice run" for our players in terms of what WC2026 will be like at home.

    We will take our A team to that event. No ifs, ands, or butts. This isn't even a discussion.

    Yes, there are some players like Pulisic who've talked about how they'd like to play in the Olympics. BUt I don't think the question posed to Pulisic was "would you rather play in the Olympics or Copa America?" Cuz Copa America is a more prestigious soccer event by a million miles.

    That doesn't mean we won't be taking a strong team to the Olympics. And it doesn't mean we can't win the Olympics with that group.
     
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  12. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m sure Pulisic and others very much would like to play in the Olympics at some point. My guess is that for now the priority will be the Copa America for him.

    The Olympics that the overage guys are likely going to lobby to play in is 2028, which is being played in Los Angeles. And while I hope we are playing in the Copa America that summer, that’s no sure thing.
     
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  13. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    its interesting how many of you insist this isnt even in quesion, a conversation, etc.
     
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  14. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    If we're thinking about 2026, which we should be, Copa all the way. It's basically a warmup for 2026 being held in the same places and featuring competition from full national teams without all the age restrictions of the Olympics. Olympics are nice and I'll hope we do well but as far as preparing the full team for a World Cup Copa is far superior.
     
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  15. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    but its not the full team. not thats going to the world cup, anyways. its the full team two years before the world cup which is...nothing.

    some of our more-likely olympic players could be world cup players that just arent ready next summer. and theres all kinds of not ready, from aaronson- who i doubt is going to put on the 40 lbs he needs to be considered lightweight in sr intl play in the next year- to cowell, who has the body but is still really inconsistent.

    both would be very reasonable predictions for the world cup roster, right? but are they going to be a huge boost to a copa team next summer?

    the core of our team are guys from musah and reyna (barely 20) to wes and pulisic (25, 26) but everyone is still going crazy to push some 17 year into the sr team. also causing more than a little wonkiness around here is not having qualifiers/thie copa being some perfect warmup for the world cup. its not. obviously its the best comp we are going to get (short of some reallyl impressive scheduling), but again- its two years before the world cup. its good for the players involved, but in a vacuum- and most the guys we are talking about are in top 5 leagues anyways.

    the biggest thing the copa is for us right now is big-name manager bait. thats it.

    put it in perspective a little- how crucially important would copa experience have been this (last) cycle for lletget, zardes, etc.

    if you (speaking generally) dont care about the olympics thats fine, if you think guys arguably playing above their level rather than having a chance to excel at it is better for development thats fine. but this "copa as world cup prep" idea just doesnt hold water.

    an invite to the asian cup in 25 would be way more important to "world cup prep" than the copa is.
     
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  16. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #41 Clint Eastwood, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    Indeed.

    There's this whole train of thought that the USMNT doesn't get enough high-level matches against elite opposition in CONCACAF.

    Well, here we have an invitation to a tournament that WILL BE our toughest competition from now until WC2026.

    ................and there is even a single person saying we should prioritize the Olympics? A U23 event?

    Americans have a weird emotional attachment to the Olympics that simply doesn't exist in the rest of the world. The rest of the world takes the Olympic tournament seriously if they're hosting, and that's about it. When I lived in Europe, they viewed the Olympics as nothing but a distraction from the start of the Euro club season.

    There is not a chance in hell that the USSF prioritizes the Olympics. I don't get it. As others have said, our pool is building to the point that we'll still have a strong Olympics group.

    The summer of 2024 is also quite a long way off. There's going to be a lot of movement in the pool, particularly amongst the young players. Any analysis now about who goes where is sure to be wrong. We have a full MLS campaign, for instance. A year ago, who would have had Brandon Vazquez in line for a Copa America place over Ricardo Pepi? A year from now i
     
  17. Ball Chucking Hack

    Jan 21, 2005
    Raleigh, NC
    The Copa America is a rare opportunity for most of the senior team to play in meaningful games, some even against teams from another confederation. Even if we sent Musah and Reyna to the olympics with Pulisic, Adams and Turner, that's still only like half the starters, at best.

    Also, I'm possibly being overly optimistic, but I think that a major international tournament played in the US 2 yrs before a WC, (hopefully w/ the US playing), with Brazil, Mexico, and Argentina would get way more attention than the Centario, or any past tournament that wasn't the World Cup.
     
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  18. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    So, how close to the World Cup do games have to be to mean anything? Personally, I think we are not particularly likely to be relying much on the current teenage crew in 2026 short of someone breaking out bigtime. So I'm not nearly as concerned with them as with the top 15-20 guys we will actually rely on for minutes in 2026. Mostly, we've got our guys who played in 2022 who will hopefully be better and more experienced. Maybe a guy or two for depth or if someone steps up and makes something of himself in the next couple years he'll have a shot at real minutes. Maybe guys playing positions where we struggle, like a striker or a backup left back. But, it's not going to be like last cycle when every teenager with a pulse and a pro contract needed to play real minutes. We've got a team that is still young and gaining experience and the youngsters will struggle to break in this cycle because they have talent in front of them. Learning how we want to fully utilize Reyna, Pulisic, McKennie, Musah, Adams, etc and getting them time together and finding how we will set up is much more meaningful than if we can work in some minutes for the younger end of the player pool this time around. And that's only happening when we can get the full team together, not just a team with a bunch of young hopefuls who may or may not make it by 2026.
     
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  19. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i dont disgree with most of what youre saying (and agree strongly on the bolded)- its the direct line from the copa to the world cup i think is a stretch.

    i didnt say the copa means nothing, just that it isnt directly applicable to the wc two years later. of course we want the best comp possible and yes, with as much of our first team together as possible for it. but thats not dependant on when it happens in relation to a world cup- thats a general, obvious thing.

    how close to the world cup is an irrelevant question. having 3 wc warmup/sendoff matches again against germany, senegal and argentina with our wc squad would be more important (better) than any tournament the year before (that would be in turn more important than the copa next year). there isnt some ideal scenario where we know our team and get to play againt top comp multiple times in preparation- thats just not reality. what we have is developing our team/pool as much as possible in (long-term) prep and we focus more and more as we get closer to the end of a cycle.

    forget my mentioning the asian cup- the gold cup in 25 is more relevant to world cup prep than the copa, because we will be closer to the team that actually goes to the world cup. i totally get the huge gap in level of comp but we are far apart on timeline.
     
  20. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Copa America is 10X better preparation for WC 2026 than the Olympics. All the other factors mentioned both ways are fine but they don't mean squat compared to this key point.
     
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  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    We're going to prioritize Copa America though I could see a few select players wanting to play the Olympics.

    But I also think the idea that Olympics don't matter is an extremely Eurocentric point of view. If we're going full English Eurosnob, I'd like to point out that the national team doesn't really matter, and it just gets in the way of club football, which is what is really important.
     
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  22. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Playing in the Copa America last cycle would have been incredibly valuable high level tournament experience for our core guys. If you take our 2021 Nations League Finals team and send it to the Copa America that summer, that's very good experience for 14 guys who made the World Cup roster (Horvath, Ream, Dest, Jedi, Yedlin, Adams, Acosta, Musah, McKennie, Pulisic, Weah, Reyna, Sargent, and Aaronson). And it would have been experience playing in a high level tournament as a group. The guys from that roster who didn't make the World Cup were Steffen, Ochoa, Miazga, Brooks, McKenzie, Cannon, Yueill, Lletget, and Pefok.

    Now the Copa America came later in the cycle because of COVID, but the World Cup also came later so you had an 18 month gap between the tournaments. A 2020 Copa America roster is hard to project because of the pandemic, but I bet most of the 14 players I listed would have been on there. 12 of the 14 were on the November 2020 camp that the first camp we had after the start of COVID (the two missing were the MLS players Yedlin and Acosta). Musah probably doesn't play in a summer 2020 Copa America though, just because he's not locked in with the program at that point.

    The guys from the World Cup roster who would have had no shot at being on a Copa America roster in 2020 are probably Turner, CCV, Moore, Scally, LDLT, Wright, and Ferreria.

    We of course had a young team and a ton of turnover between cycles. That's probably less the case this cycle. I haven't looked at the numbers but I bet there's a good amount of carryover between rosters from the Euros to the World Cup or from the Copa America to the World Cup.
     
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  23. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the Olympics matter a ton in the US and I think a number of our guys would like to play in them at some point. I think the reality is we aren't likely to get an Adams or Pulisic released for the Olympics, but they will for the Copa America (assuming as anticipated it gets added to the international calendar).
     
  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #49 Clint Eastwood, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    All events are a means to an end. That end is the 2026WC.

    We will take the Olympics seriously. That's why we've put so much effort into qualifying for them.

    Taking our best team to the Copa doesn't mean sacrificing the Olympics. After all, our pool keeps expanding. So how many forwards do you take to the Copa America. Maybe by 2024 the top 3 are Vazquez, Dike, and Sargent. Who the hell knows? But that would mean, of course, Ricardo Pepi to the Olympics. And if Ricardo Pepi is one of the best three forwards, then maybe you send Dike to the Olympics as an overage player. Maybe a player like Erik Palmer-Brown is still outside the "A" national team, and he goes to the Olympics. Maybe there's no room in the A team for a Mihailovic or Tillmann or whomever. They go as an overage player to the Olympics.

    There's a false assumption that prioritizing the Copa America would mean sacrificing the Olympics. That's not the case at all.

    And all we're doing right now in January of 2023 is guessing who will be in our A team for the summer of 2024.
     
  25. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The thing is, even if you want to take a Sargent to the Olympics, there's a good chance his club won't release him. The same is true for Pepi.

    I think some of it was due to COVID, but for the 2021 Olympics a number of countries (like France) were scrambling to fill their squad because they were having serious issues getting players released.
     
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