Perfomance at the WC: Maradona `1986 vs Messi 2022?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Gregoire1, Dec 20, 2022.

?

Better perfomance

  1. Messi 2022

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Maradona 1986

    50 vote(s)
    86.2%
  1. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Well... I took a 36-hour break from comments and it looks like the conversation has gotten away from me lol. Instead of trying to address replies, I suppose I'll ask some clarifying questions.

    @lessthanjake Where do you rank Messi's NT all-time?
    Frankly, I haven't given much thought to a ranking of NT careers before; however, it could be instructive, or at least entertaining to see what we come up with.
     
  2. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The stuff about 2007 is a valid point (Brazil still fielded a strong team that year though, and I think Kaka and Ronaldinho were just really exhausted after having just done the WC the previous summer and both also having been in deep CL runs in the prior couple years), but the 2016 thing is idiosyncratic because of Brazil hosting the Olympics that year and therefore valuing winning the Olympics that year way higher than they otherwise ever would have. Anyways, you can quibble, but the Copa America has been considered a major tournament in this era. I think it’s still not as big a deal as the Euros, but it’s undeniably a major tournament. That was not necessarily true for significant portions of its history, though, and I do think that’s a valid thing to point out regarding South American players who played in eras where it just wasn’t taken very seriously.
     
  3. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #779 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    I hesitate to do any kind of specific ranking, because I think it’ll somehow spawn unforeseen arguments across the map with other people about stuff that I’d not actually even thought through a ton.

    But I guess I’ll say this:

    I think it’d be very hard to argue for Messi over Pele as a NT player. So I’d put Pele ahead, and I don’t really think anyone else reaches Pele either, so he’s probably on a tier on his own. In general, there’s also some other Brazilian players from that era that are in the mix and were obviously great NT players but that I can’t really properly rank for lack of enough direct knowledge about them and their contributions (guys like Garrincha, Didi, etc.). So I’ll just leave those guys aside (along with anyone from before that era—such as someone like Jose Nasazzi), and acknowledge them but not rank them or discuss them further. Anyways, I think it’d be reasonable to rank R9 ahead of Messi as a NT player, but that a reasonable argument could also be made for Messi to be ahead of R9. Same with Zidane. So I guess that’s the general tier I’d put Messi in. If push came to shove, I’d probably put Messi and R9 above Zidane, but I’m not going to split hairs and put them in different tiers.

    I think there’s a half-tier after that that has guys like Xavi, Iniesta, Gerd Muller, Franz Beckenbauer, Maradona, and Cruyff. All those guys have an argument for being in the same tier with Messi/R9/Zidane, depending on what you value. So for instance: Xavi and Iniesta have three major tournament wins in a row with unprecedented midfield domination but not a ton outside those three tournaments. Muller has just a freakish amount of timely goals in important moments/matches and won two major tournaments, but didn’t actually feature in that many tournaments. Beckenbauer was great several times and won two major tournaments, but maybe was not ever the best player in any tournament. Maradona had IMO the greatest tournament performance ever but wasn’t actually all that great otherwise. And Cruyff has a competitor for greatest tournament performance but didn’t win and really wasn’t able to feature in much more than that (though he was mostly really great when he did play for the Netherlands otherwise). So those guys are a half-tier below but depending on preferences could be put in the higher tier with Messi/R9/Zidane (for instance, I’ve essentially argued in another thread that Xavi is in that higher tier, but I’m putting him in this half-tier below that because I think that’s probably more in line with general consensus, as opposed to my personal preferences).

    After that, I think you get a tier with guys like Platini, Van Basten, Matthaus, Pirlo, Modric, Romario, Puskas, Charlton, Jairzinho, Griezmann, etc. There’s surely multiple other names I’m missing that belong there too. Mbappe probably already belongs there.

    One thing I actually find really interesting in this regard is Antoine Griezmann. He’s been a very good club player, but honestly not anything particularly special. But I actually think as a NT player, he’s been truly great. Griezmann was player of the tournament in Euro 2016, when his team was runner up. He got the bronze ball at WC 2018, but was the highest ranked player on the WC-winning team. And his team was runner up in WC 2022, with him having been their best player until the final and probably deserving the bronze ball IMO (and surely was 4th in voting as it was, I think). So this is a guy who has been one of very top few performers in three major tournaments, for a team that has been really successful. And he also performed pretty well in Euro 2020, though France didn’t get all that far. To me, he’s definitely in that tier I just mentioned above, despite being a lesser player than everyone else in it. An interestingly huge NT overachiever.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I'd say that would be more what I had in mind (although what I was getting at is that some games by players might be worth an 8.5 or even an 8, but they show something of a 'special' or super-ATG level of play or moments of that level including perhaps key ones but without a truly outstanding and/or decisive 90 minutes as a whole, so I was having that as a second category - some of Messi's Copa America games coming into that bracket for example I was feeling).
     
  5. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    What of Messi’s Copa America matches that made the list of 8.5+ ratings (as well as the CA 2011 Costa Rica match and CA 2015 Paraguay match) would you say were not truly outstanding as a whole? There’s a couple there probably not quite as good as the others, but most of those were really extraordinary matches.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok thanks, I'll take a look and see what bracket I think I'd be including it in too.

    I would say that I'm not sure Netherlands 2022 is better than Belgium 1986 to be honest too, but that's a side point (it just would affect things either way when you're tallying up the games vs 'top tier' opponents). I think Belgium wasn't expected to get to the SF that year, although they'd put out the Netherlands in qualifying (in the beginning phase of the Euro 88 generation team) and had been pretty good for a while in International football (and some of their teams, with mostly Belgian players had done well in European club competition on and off for a while), but they did it, even without every player in the squad being at the top of their game I think in the tournament.

    But I don't want to drag myself back in too much, so I'm just adding this as a quick note about my view on it (I might have alluded to it before), whether we think in 'real terms' comparisons possibly (I know there'd be debate on that in a few ways) or certainly if we think about how the teams stacked up in the pecking order at the time. The USSR could have gone through but they weren't robbed exactly, and Spain didn't win in normal time so going to penalties was the fair way to decide of course (albeit I think if Denmark had got past Spain they might have challenged some of the top teams themselves - they had polar opposite scorelines vs Uruguay and Spain of course so as you say things do vary).
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'd need to get back to you on that mate. Like you alluded to overall I watch more Euros games than CA ones....
     
  8. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I think Netherlands 2022 was meaningfully better than Belgium 1986. The Netherlands currently have an elo rating of 2073 (4th in the world). Belgium ended that World Cup with a 1843 elo rating, and finished the year with the 18th ranked elo rating in the world. I know we’ve had some discussion about a concept of elo inflation, but that’s a massive difference, both in terms of the elo rating itself and how they rank amongst other teams at the time (the latter of which is obviously unaffected by any potential elo inflation). I think it’d be very hard to consider two teams with that big of a difference to be equivalent teams.
     
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  9. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    You are not arguing in good faith.. you are intentionally misrepresenting my words. Ive never said that and yes

    R9 performancs vs germany is not an all time great. I will repeat that.

    Zidanes vs brazil is an all time great perf but overrated imo for various reasons. Its definitely not 10/10 performance
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    IIRC these were ones I was thinking of though (for having something of a super-ATG level performance, irrespective of whether I might not go as high as a 9 out of 10...which for me would be a quite rare grade and I'd be thinking in increments of at least 0.5 if not smaller even)




    I haven't viewed those particular videos today though of course. They seem long enough to have all the touches, even if they are embellished by slow motion clips etc, though.
     
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  11. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #787 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    Not sure if you mean that you think those are super-ATG level performances, or whether they’re ones you think were not really truly outstanding. But I’ll just note that I didn’t actually include Messi’s match against Colombia in CA 2015 (i.e. the match in the last video there) in my list of Messi’s great NT matches. It was a really good match from him, and he was man of the match (and, for reference, was given 8.6 by WhoScored), so I could’ve included it, but I erred on the side of not mentioning it, since I’m not really sure that it would’ve reached that 8.5+ SofaScore bar (as I said, it got 8.6 from WhoScored, but SofaScore ratings on average tend to be a slight bit lower, so my guess is it probably wouldn’t have met the specific concrete bar I’d set, so I didn’t mention it). Thus, to the extent you’re saying you wouldn’t consider it to be a truly outstanding match, it wasn’t on my list to begin with. And if you are saying you think it was, then that just adds another to the list.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think maybe we are having a communication/description issue mate: using different terms to each other etc, but what I was saying was that I didn't feel at the time that I would give a 9+ for any of those overall, but I did feel that in each of them there was something indicative of an exceptional level. So on the 'super-ATG' performances issue they were worth a mention. Whether I would go as high as 9 vs Nigeria in 2014 is also in question, but possibly only because he was subbed quite early - his performance and end product was on course to be a worthy 9 out of 10 type performance I think IIRC.

    I hope that clears it up, in terms of what I was meaning.

    IIRC (like I say without viewing the two videos today) I felt some of the general play vs Colombia was exceptional, but in the semi-final the end product was better. A 'merge' of both aspects and maybe I'd have gone to a 9 out of 10. I guess especially for the semi-final it could be a reasonable/understandable and quite likely call by any particular person/publication though in any case to have a 9 out of 10 (especially if not making 9 out of 10 a super rare grade and only using full points like some publications do, including most English ones - the Italians always used increments of 0.5 though). I didn't look up media ratings for that one, but wouldn't be surprised to see some of that level anyway.

    I am going on vague 8 year old memories a bit here though.
     
  13. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia


    This is a clearly better midfield performance than Zidanes. Effectively better but without all the elegance and beauty and narrative that it is against phenomenal, stacked Brazil team, etc.

    Zidane had 4 key passes. 3 of which came out of set pieces which are for me the least valuable form of chance creation because its basically, hit a specific area with a cross and hope your teammate gets on the ball first. 1 other key pass was very good, in-game pass towards the end when Brazil openned up chasing a goal.

    A lot of progressive passes by Zidane. Incredible at ball retention with all the style points, but ultimately he didnt create much. He was lacking final, killer passes for me to be some masterpiece..

    Zidane is also forgiven a lot. Like his defensive effort, a lack of pace..
     
  14. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #790 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    For reference for you and others, here’s videos of the Messi Copa America matches I have referred to (haven’t watched each of these just now, so apologies if they end up being bad quality or music or something):

    Group Stage vs. Costa Rica 2011



    Semifinal vs. Paraguay 2015



    Group Stage vs. Panama 2016 (note: he was actually a sub here, but still)



    Quarterfinals vs. Venezuela 2016



    Semifinals vs. USA 2016



    Group Stage vs. Bolivia 2021

    https://youtu.be/KcaatXV13IE


    Quarterfinals vs. Ecuador 2021

    https://youtu.be/GWcCjxgSzpg


    Semifinals vs. Colombia 2021

    https://youtu.be/6gFT6FPH2oI
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That's not the semi-final Paraguay video actually I think lessthanjake from 2015, but the group stage game (I did mention that one in the 3 I posted about before though of course).
     
  16. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    You’re right! Thanks! I’ve fixed that in my above post. I hadn’t actually watched the videos, so didn’t realize it was the wrong game.
     
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  17. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    There is a lot more if we go to wc qualifications in south america. Obvious one hattrick vs ecuador in final, must-win match to qualify argentina to wc. Similarly must win match few months earlier vs Colombia. One of his best and important performances in career.

    Bolivia 2016. Bolivia 2021. Peru 2017.....

    Virtually endless body of work
     
  18. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @lessthanjake Sandor Kocsis probably had 3 ATG level performances in the 54 world cup. He scored 4 goals against West Germany, 2 against Uruguay and 2 against Brazil
     
  19. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    About key passes, I think it can be a quite misleading statistic in general. I get the thinking that key passes from set-pieces could be considered lesser than from open play, but it isn't always the case that it takes less skill or ability to execute, or that it results in lower scoring chances. For instance, a key pass could literally be a 5-yard lateral pass in midfield, where the teammate shoots from 30 yards. Or it could be a striker knocking down a long ball for a teammate to shoot. Or, it could be just a hopeful cross. Consistently great delivery from set-pieces, where the defence has time to set-up, is a skill and one that even the best get wrong a lot of the time. I know just about any pro player can put in a decent cross most of the time, but I tend to think having a specialist or great set-piece crosser can make a pretty big difference over the course of a campaign.
     
  20. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #796 lessthanjake, Jan 30, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2023
    Oh, for sure. His WC qualifying match against Ecuador is one of his greatest matches ever, given the performance and the situation/stakes.

    I just wanted to compile videos of some of the very best Copa America matches, since I have a feeling that a decent number of people have not paid enough attention to the Copa America to realize how many truly great performances Messi has had there. Same is probably true of WC qualifying though (which I wouldn’t say normally matters that much, but a few of these were actually *really* important matches).
     
  21. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yeah, that may be true. I’ll be honest that I don’t really consider pre-1958 stuff very much, though. The information we have about it is typically just too limited/vague to draw many concrete conclusions, so I kind of put those sorts of people in a box in their own separate category.

    Beyond that, I’d also note that goalscoring at the 1954 World Cup was *super* high—it was literally twice as many goals per match scored as in WC 2022 (which was itself on the higher end of things in terms of scoring in modern-era World Cups). And Hungary itself was the highest scoring team—scoring 5.4 goals per match. So Kocsis’s goalscoring needs to be heavily contextualized as having been in a pretty alien environment. By all indications I’ve ever read about him, though, Kocsis was a great player.
     
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  22. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Yes, if you look at key passes out of context, but I didn't. It's valuable, just like it's valuable to have penalty kick specialist or gk that is great a saving penalties.. a bit more valuable than that.

    But it is also useless if you don't have players that can win duels and score headers. Having Ramos is more valuable than having fk specialist, because, as you said, there are plenty of players that can cross the ball, there are not many that can consistently win duels and score headers.

    It's definitely plus that Zidane made 3 very good crosses, but it's not like making 3 split defensive passes in game.
     
  23. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I’ve talked about this a decent bit in that Xavi/Iniesta/Zidane thread, but I think Zidane gets a lot of credit for style and beautiful touches and stuff, when it doesn’t always have much of any tangible end product or huge danger caused by it. Such stuff isn’t useless by any means (a lot of this stylish stuff can end up drawing in defenders and create space for others). But I do think that Messi is held to a very different standard, where he can have a game with tons of really incisive and dangerous dribbling (and constantly drawing defenders to him) that ultimately doesn’t end up creating a goal and have it not be considered a strong game at all (think, for example: the CA 2016 finals—which to be fair also ultimately involved a penalty shootout miss). On the other hand, someone like Zidane (or Iniesta) could do the same thing and it would be considered a great game. One answer to this is that Messi is a forward and so has more responsibility to be involved in end product, but Messi’s role is actually quite often most akin to an AM (particularly for Argentina), which is also what Zidane and Iniesta often played as.

    I think it’s just undeniable that evaluations of Messi suffer from being held to his own ridiculous standards. Messi is an all-time great goalscorer, so it’s disappointing if he didn’t score. Messi is an all-time great playmaker, so it’s disappointing if he didn’t create a bunch of great chances. Messi is an all-time great dribbler, so it’s disappointing if he doesn’t have a ton of great dribbling that leads to danger. Messi drops deep and helps a lot in midfield, so it’s disappointing if he’s only involved in build-up play as much as a normal forward. All that stuff individually makes sense, but he doesn’t need to do all that stuff in one game to have put in a great performance by any normal standard (or even the standard that pretty much every other all-time great is held to).
     
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  24. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Given everything that is at the top of my mind right now, I would say Messi's top 5 NT performances are:
    • vs Ecuador 2018
    • vs Netherlands 2022
    • vs Colombia 2017
    • vs Costa Rica 2011
    • vs USA 2016
    I would be interested to see yours and others and perhaps compare it to some other great players..
     
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