Post-match: USA v Netherlands Round of 16

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    that haji goal came off of his foot....something that never happened to zardes.
     
  2. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    The Portugal loss in particular is so ridiculous it beggars belief. Just insane that they lost that game with basically 1 second left because we allowed ourselves to be stretched beyond all reason due to moronic tactical suggestions from Klinsy and a terrible touch or two from Bradley. That's one that always just pisses me off.

    The Wales loss was stupid and totally preventable

    We beat Slovenia, we just didn't beat Koulibaly.

    So to me anyway, the record against Europe in WC's is largely b.s., one win was stolen by an incompetent ref, one was fumbled away in literally the last second, and the Wales game is one we probably win 9 times out of 10.

    I'm not worried about Europe in general, I'm worried about tier 1 and tier 2 Europe (the top 8-12 sides), we need to improve a lot this cycle, hopefully we get some of that from Copa America and the Olympics, and hopefully we play as many Europe based roadies as possible when NL and Qualifying isn't interfering. We need to play this right, basically avoid repeating what Arena did in the run up to '06 and what Berhalter did for most of the friendlies in '19-'22 (I like June and September, ftr, and argued as much at the time they were agreed to: Morocco, Uruguay, Japan, and Saudi were four of probably the best 10 sides available in those two windows).
     
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  3. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Dribbling around a 6'8" keeper not including his reach w/o getting caught as he rounds him? Ehhh, not as easy as you seem to think. Very few people score there w/any other decision other than what Pulisic did.
     
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  4. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Just slipping by to point out an MLS player snatched 2 points from us in Qatar...

    And to once again note that until we have a couple of deadly strikers, we are going to have trouble. We need a Kane and a Rashford and a Saka, a Mbappe and a Giroud, a Torres and a Morata. Strikers go cold. When you have no strikers on a hot, it's tough out there in the top tier.
     
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  5. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For me the issue isn't about roster selection. If Musah and Wes were going to be gassed after ~60 minutes, then you have to turn some of the nominal wingers already on the roster who love coming into the middle into an 8/10. Bring on Aaronson and Reyna and try to win the midfield with possession and creativity rather than running and winning second balls.
     
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  6. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Wright deserves more credit then he's been getting for that goal. There's a ton of luck involved, but that luck doesn't mean much if he's not right on the doorstep with the ball (briefly) at his feet.
     
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  7. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Probably that it's great to be a rich, young athlete in a target rich environment like the Netherlands.
     
  8. spot

    spot Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Centennial
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Green got to claim the scuffed shot 8 years ago why not let Haji have it?
     
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  9. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I took the remainder of the weekend before posting my thoughts on the game. Too easy to play the blame game and wanted to see how the other Round of 16 games played out over the weekend. Well, there were no upsets and the favored team advanced fairly easily.

    So, first congratulations on the USMNT for their participation and effort in the 2022 WC. While I won't go so far as to say this WC changes the perception of US Soccer by the global soccer community, I do think that it showed both the current positives (young team who didn't get scared to perform at this level) and negatives (tournament nativity and depth). In the end, Holland was/is the better team. They performed better both technically and mentally. There is a reason that they haven't lost in 18 games.

    Could it have been different if Pulisic had put his early opportunity in goal? Sure. Or if our defense hadn't been ball watching (Dest and Robinson)? May be. Or if McKenna was better fit and tracked the runner on the first goal? Too many if's...

    Similar to the players, the coaching staff could have done better. They never go the scorer role resolved (I.e. get more creative with finding scoring options) and our set pieces were just not good enough even for a relatively small team. They did get the team acting as a team and generally got the player selection correct. Remember all the crying that Long was going to play. 100% guaranteed.

    In the end, while I appreciate the effort from the team, I was disappointed in the mental mistakes in defense. At this level, it just needed to be better. No matter what anyone says, this is not a top ten team, even with a better coach.

    I will save my thoughts to the next fours years for other threads.
     
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  10. QuakeAttack

    QuakeAttack Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    California - Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How is this down to coaching? The majority of the time is spent with clubs. Two of the goals were from players ball watching (Dest) or not marking their space (Robinson). The other goal was from a player (McKenna) not tracking the runner into the box. Do the coaches have to tell them that? I certainly hope not or we have bigger problems.
     
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  11. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This shot, right? Much like Haji, he made the run, beat the defender to the spot, and the rest is history.



    How about Deuce's goal v Portugal? The sequence was started by a great through ball from a player many said could not pass!

     
  12. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just slipping by to point out it was a fellow MLS player who beat him to the ball, and w/out him dominating defensively in that game otherwise we'd have already lost the 2 points.

    Also must additionally point out the Euro-based player who replaced him for 1 match had to be bailed out by teammates (including said MLS player), refs, & the opponent on twice as many crucial defensive errors as his MLS-comp committed in his entire 4-game tournament.

    And as Paul Harvey used to say, that's the rest of the story...
     
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  13. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    The lack of usage for particular guys was a huge problem:

    Acosta for Adams exclusively:
    LDLT, Roldan for Musah and if he wasn't match fit take someone else and if Roldan couldn't fill in anywhere in the midfield WHY IS HE THERE AS A PLAYER AND NOT A COACH?????
    Reyna, Aaronson, Tillman etc for McKennie (Djorde etc)

    Arriola was obviously critical: we had gassed wing forwards by the England match, Arriola could have eaten a ton of minutes from 70-95 defending tight games and working the occasional ball in. That would've been, and was (as I said) more valuable than sending Morris there to watch from the bench.

    Scally was there to watch Moore proven why he shouldn't be? I guess?

    Yedlin stunk early, but actually was reasonable against the Dutch so credit to him.

    I agree 100% that this loss was on a lot of things but probably the single most obvious is that we had players that could help in CM, and give rests that Egg gave an absolute ton of minutes to (or ignored almost entirely) and who were then abandoned when we could have used them, or continued to be ignored afterwards (Scally, Williamson, Djorde etc).

    There are a ton of reasons which explain why we failed, from great Dutch Coaching, to getting NOTHING from set pieces the past two years, to terrible finishing and poor chance generation, but probably the most obvious piece was player overuse and not enough rotation. In window 2 he over rotated in qualifying, and in the world cup, he under did it.
     
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  14. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    the subs came too late against Wales, I can't remember, but I believe he did better job w/timing them afterwards. Key problems in terms of subs was a mix of the wrong players for some of them, and not bringing them in early enough against Wales etc.
     
  15. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know that Tyler not tracking runners nor rotating has to do with tactical deficiency. Same goes for ARob, Musah, and Dest not doing it. Incidentally, these were our 3 starters who grew up abroad, so you can't exactly pin that on their lack of tutelage in America.

    More so it would have to do with the over-use of all these players & poise in these situations. Take it as a lesson to young players, the need to develop depth, and then trust those guys.

    You can say we should have had a guy up top we could have sent the ball up to, while hanging back in a defensive shape, to not be broken down so easily. Then picked our spots to break. Or sat deeper but tried to play cagey possession thru the Dutchmen. This would have maybe saved some legs to in the finale. But none of the striker options really facilitated this, and he was riding and dying on MMA. In theory they gave us the best shot to win against tougher comp. But they needed to be sharp, which they weren't anymore. Found that out the hard way.
     
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  16. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    FYI, that was Adams.
     
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  17. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    The key element of the 2010 crew that remains heartbreaking:
    No Charlie Davies
    Jermaine Jones out in his prime, due to injury.

    That car accident doesn't happen, a life is saved, and Davies career as well. Jermaine Jones healthy and that changes the other core weakness of the team (shoring up a soft defensive middle). Granted we couldn't fix LB if we tried, but Jones on that field probably erases multiple goals alone (Slovenia, Ghana), and Davies on the field raises the attacking ceiling 2x to 3x what it was (the drop off from Davies healthy to Herc and Findlay was as big a drop as Adams to Acosta, probably more).

    That being said, w/o those guys, '02 is just better, period. The other thing with '02 is imagining a 100% healthy Reyna (he was injured at the start), imagining a Wolff and Mathis who weren't coming back from torn ACL's. The '02 ceiling was higher too if not for injuries, and that relates to the '06 fail too.
     
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  18. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't wait until we stop talking about ourselves this way. We're already an integral part of the "global soccer community." We're part of the prosperous middle class of international soccer -- our McMansion is just as tacky and oversized as theirs, and we don't have to prove anything to anybody.
     
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  19. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm biased, but no American has ever played better than Mathis during the year between his trade to the Metros and his injury. He was magisterial.
     
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  20. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Berhalter was given a ton of tactical praise by coaching, foreign=based press and even tactical twitter for the first three matches. Louis van Gaal did out-tactic him in Game 4, but a) he's Louis van Gaal and b) his team is better, fresher and more versatile. Likewise, you can say we had more talent than Iran and Wales by some amount, and that helped Berhalter.

    The bigger picture is that if your expectation is that ANY coach wins the tactical battle 100% of the time, or never gets out-anticipated or coached, you're going to be disappointed. Guardiola gets out gameplanned. Klopp can get out gameplanned. Alex Ferguson lost some matchups, and all these guys roll/rolled with incredible levels of talent.

    All that happened, people, is that Berhalter made two very pragmatic choices: to play defensively; and to ride his horses and try not and let the second string be in a place to lose something for us. It absolutely was counting on a level of offensive execution that was probably a bit of wishcasting at points. The death knell to the strategy was really a number of completely basic defensive breakdowns.

    I think it is totally fair to question both of those major choices (as well as some smaller ones). But this idea that Berhalter is a tactical doofus or that he was embarrassed or outclassed this World Cup just kind of shows a lack of understanding all that goes into it.

    I also think that people have got to come down on the "Be Pragmatic" side or the "We need to play our Best XI / Play Reyna / More offensively players" side. I think it's a bit off to be super complimentary of say, Van Gaal's choices strategically or Japan's gameplans but also want us to have dropped McK or Musah for effectively an attacker.

    The plan seems very simple to me. Play MMA to control the game, stop counters and to protect Zim and Ream. Funnel the offense through CP and Dest. Play incredibly solid defense and try and get a goal or two. Don't get in a shootout because we're not good at scoring. If you get up and the opponent starts pressing, counter hard (we did... we just can't.) Ride or die with the talent as much as possible; play for today, not tomorrow.

    It got through the group stage as we executed for the most part. It didn't get through the Netherlands as we didn't.

    I think Berhalter was very skeptical that our team could really score at an elite pace even if committed to that end. I think back in 2019, he had plans, but by the World Cup ... MMA or no, I don't really blame him to committing to defense. Some of that offensive impotence is absolutely on him, but you need to coach to where you are.

    Lots to criticize, but I don't think painting Berhalter as tactically poor or idealistic is even accurate. His decisions may be wrong, but he absolutely was pragmatic and tactically organized. Definitely agree he can struggle with adjustments, especially even or ahead. I actually think he makes good adjustments at time -- it's anticipating the other teams' halftime moves that really seem a problem.
     
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  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think that phrase had very little to do with changing international perception.

    It absolutely was intended as both a vision and motivational guidepost for our players, who were going to be asked to play with the ball more than previous teams.

    And it definitely got brought as a marketing lever with the US fanbase. Not intended for the hardcore fans. It was intended perhaps for some folks who watch Champions League but say the US sucks, etc.

    At best, how the rest of the world looks at us is a measuring stick for the above.
     
  22. nbarbour

    nbarbour Member+

    Jun 19, 2006
    Washington DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, Berhalter did run our guys into the ground. Tired legs = tired mind. Pretty much any goal you can point to some sort of defensive mistake. van Gaal knew how to exploit our weaknesses and we didn't adjust.
     
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  23. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I suppose if Einstein appeared on tv and said the universe was shaped like a western saddle, the hoi polloi would laugh. If he said the same at a conference of scientists there'd be those who'd say "I'm callin BS" and then a select few who would say "looks good, let's work with that and see where it takes us."

    You meet all kinds on the internet and I think that's fine. You like to yap about lack of "proof' for everything anybody says. That can be useful up to a point.

    I could carry on here using just the information I gave you but I can't change you so I won't. Only you can do that.
     
  24. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By moranical tactical suggestion you are talking about continuing to put some pressure the ball so that Portugal could not get a free setup to launch crosses into the box? We saw the sit back and bunker setup for the last 15 minutes v Iran, right.

    The setup v Portugal got exactly the result that it was designed to do; Portugal launched a long ball that was easily eaten up by Cameron around midfield, all MB90 had to do was trap a headed lofted ball, something most U9 do 99/100 times.

    Here is a breakdown of what actually happened:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    https://www.businessinsider.com/usa-world-cup-loss-portugal-2014-6
     
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  25. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I'm calling BS.

    Wright knew he was beat to the near post but that the defenders had to guard the near post and he was traveling too fast to trap the ball and turn. Therefore, the option that was left was to backheel the ball into an area where somebody could score, even if he didn't know with any proof that there would be anybody there to put the ball in. What he did know was that an attempted assist into that area had a relatively high chance of being scored. One of those chances was that the back heel would go in either because of an own goal deflection, or a teammate running on to it or even just going in directly off his back heel.

    Good goal. Smart by Haji. The back heel was on.
     

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