Post-match: USA v Netherlands Round of 16

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Dec 3, 2022.

  1. DCU1984

    DCU1984 Member+

    Jan 15, 2009
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You picked the example and it was a bad one. I think Arriola deserved the spot and is a better player. Zimmerman earned his spot as well despite his poor passing.
     
  2. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I also find this type of thinking counter-productive and not really helpful. HOWEVER, watching Mbappe today, all I could think of was how if he grew up in the US, coaches would be trying to recruit him into American football. With his size, speed, and strength, combined with his great touch and skill, he's a generational talent. He's the kind of athlete who would make a difference, but he's also the kind of athlete who would probably make an incredible running back or even linebacker or defensive back. Let's face it, athletes who excel in football skill positions fit the same profile as those who excel in soccer. The difference being one of endurance and bulk - both of which are a result of training regimens.

    That said, I agree with the opinion that high-level training matters more, and it's the biggest gap for developing world class soccer players, but I think we still have a couple of decades or so of relying on 1st and 2nd generation Americans who come from a soccer culture.
     
  3. MayaDempsey

    MayaDempsey Member+

    Jul 29, 2014
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Definitely! Interestingly we tend to overrate our guys while most club team fans are the reverse. If one was to go with the club coaches that “know him best”, though, Hakim Ziyech wouldn’t make a national team. Too many weaknesses.

    As a side note, one of my favorite WC moments so far was watching renowned talent evaluator, and Pulisic hater, Thierry Henry consoling the much more worthy player in his eyes after he didn’t “do something”.
     
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  4. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    I would like to suggest that this is a precedent (banning for “one note” repetition) that could get a bunch of people kicked out, IF it is applied without regard to the content of the one note argument.
     
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  5. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Great point. In the GGG system, Adams is a SPOF. It's a testament to his quality as a player that he rarely breaks down. But when he does, or if he's not available for selection, we miss him terribly. A system that relies on a single player to be effective is not a reliable system.
     
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  6. NorcalHockeyhooligan

    Feb 25, 2012
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely this! Let’s see if US Soccer can get the right manager with the tactical nous and player evaluation to unleash the most skilled USMNT the country has ever had. Find/put players in the best position to succeed.
     
  7. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I missed this - who? when?
     
  8. dspence2311

    dspence2311 Member+

    Oct 14, 2007
    Yeah, he is too indispensable.
     
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  9. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Okay, I see what you are saying. But they are compared Ziyech to say, Mount, or Sterling or whatever.

    What I mean is that they tend to have a much more unbiased view of strengths and weaknesses. Ignore someone who says "so and so sucks" but I've heard far more nuanced looks at say, Reyna, from Dortmund fans than US fans.

    I would not necessarily say Henry is a renowned talent evaluator. Being good at playing does not immediately make you good at the other.

    To be fair to Henry, though, I think all he basically said was that Pulisic needs to be better. That's part of it.
     
  10. MayaDempsey

    MayaDempsey Member+

    Jul 29, 2014
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Lukaku after Belgium were eliminated. He missed a bunch of chances and was upset.
     
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  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Mbappe would be a CB or a FS, maybe a slot receiver.

    Getting our best athletes to play soccer doesn't make them Mbappe, but it's a little silly to pretend that our actual likely player pool isn't a tiny fraction of what 330 million people implies.

    The real shame is that football and basketball prioritize size soooo much that if people were just a little more targeted based on expected height, it would make a massive difference.

    There's a lot of 5'10" CBs and college PGs who have no shot at NFL careers but who might have had a helluva soccer career.

    And as much as soccer emphasizes slightly different athletic benefits, there's a lot of people who simply never tried it that might have been a lot better than their chosen sport.
     
  12. MayaDempsey

    MayaDempsey Member+

    Jul 29, 2014
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    He didn’t have quite the same opinion of what Lukaku needed to do at Chelsea.

    Pulisic has weaknesses. He also tends to run into the 6 yard box without the ball at high intensity.. Frank loved the box running. So does Gregg. Tuchel and Potter not as much. It’s an art.
     
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  13. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think both should be pursued. Because our landscape is too insular.

    And while most players with quality will be ushered to Europe, one of the non-spoken about benefits to participating in Libertadores for MLS would be the development of the American coach.

    We talk so much about our players. But our coaches largely have zero experience outside MLS and the odd CCL match. When you look at the top coaches in the game they have lots more experience in various leagues/competitions.
     
  14. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Right, but I'd bet Thomas Tuchel could tell you what Pulisic is good at, but that doesn't mean he's the fit for what Tuchel does.

    I've found most USMNT fans simply think players are great or suck, but not much more nuance than that.
     
  15. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Good point, and it's not an either or.

    The issue with Libertadores is the travel. Copa America happens over a short time period. Libertadores is a LOT of trips.
     
  16. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nice. But don't forget to mention the 3 individual attention tune-outs that gave away the game. Three handouts, nice gifts. Only Zimmerman's PK foul in the Wales game was an equivalent. Odds of 3 nearly identical errors in one game? Tiny x Tiny.
     
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  17. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    This x1000! I've had this thought so many times over the years. It makes me wonder how we can build grassroots communities that get the word out. Like, "hey, how would you like to play a sport that takes you on international adventures!"
     
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  18. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Ironic, considering that's how we got past Iran. But I think that was your point :)
     
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  19. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Man, my BIL is 6', my sister 5'7" and I couldn't get my nephew, who is short for his age, to spend much time on the sport. He loves baseball (okay), football and basketball (oh god no).

    Big reason is that Uncle Gogorath lives far away and BIL and Grandpa don't watch it or play it with him. Which is all good -- look, he's not going to play pro in anything. But just from even playing at the high school level or small college or something ... two of those sports are complete non-starters for him.

    If you an athletic kid with a 5'10" dad and want to get paid to play a sport, put down the basketball.
     
  20. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    One question for the coach:

    If you are a driver of a good sport car, do you vary the speed during the whole process?
    Or you just keep 250 mph all the time?
     
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  21. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Ok, true, but like, that's what billionaires are for :)

    Unless your point was about travel and fatigue, in which case, yeah, that's a clear negative. I do think it would be helpful, but we would need larger squads to accommodate the player rotations.
     
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  22. the5timechamp

    the5timechamp Member+

    Nov 3, 2012

    Its soo true lol.. I sit on that myself thinking back on HS.. I should have played futbol instead of basketball… I doubt I’d be on any roster anywhere but at least I’d have a shot… That is the conversation I always have now with young folks.. Eggball and Basketball have built in genetic limits… futbol begins with your feet on the ground.. it helps to illustrate the point when the 2 best players (Messi, Ronaldo) are built so different (if Saquatch has complaints you show Zlatan)… The conversations always go into the sport itself and skill blah blah..
     
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  23. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I don't get it. England played us for a draw so they could win their group comfortably. We coudlnt score a goal on them. Ndland basically set up a mid block (notice the use of the word mid, ie. in MMA's face, not like Iran which sat back) and MMA couldnt put anything together at all and were shredded for 2 goals in the FH.

    MMA acolytes would have it that Ream suddenly turned into a bad passer. No, he was passing to people who couldn't receive. This was already known somewhat after the Japan/Sarabia game (which was missing Yunus in mid).

    MMA is not a balanced midfield. It needs to go. We need skills on the pitch, not a catchphrase or Berhalter's good vibrations.
     
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  24. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I live in a town in Mass that has won the state championship in its class 5x in a row. We are soccer-crazy, and a fair number of our players go on to play college ball. And there are a few towns like ours throughout the state - and I suspect every region or state has outposts like ours. There just... aren't enough of us yet. But to get back to your nephew, if he lived in an area with a stronger soccer culture, it would be a different story, no? It's all about doing this grassroots culture building which, for the moment, is clustered in urban and suburban areas with large immigrant populations.
    Anyway, I've drifted far and away from post-game analysis (sorry mods!) but this is the topic that occupies my brain these days.
     
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  25. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dude there's more nuance to this than your crusade against MLS. And I say that as someone who has pointed out issues with MLS for years. Although at this point I've accepted it for what it is.

    But by and large every NT will rely on its domestic league to an extent. And guys like Weah, Reyna, Aaronson, McKennie, Adams, Ream, all have some connection to MLS. As do our up and comers like Booth, Richards, Paxten Aaronson, etc. Even someone like Mihailovic is still only 24 and got his Ered move after being a top MLSer. We should be hoping the next 4 years he takes his game to the next level for 2026.

    While playing in Europe helps to an extent and talent naturally gravitates up the pyramid, just like a Euro basketball player coming to the NBA, it also isn't a magic elixir. Miazga was there for years as one obvious example. As was Yedlin. And while Acosta is extremely limited as a player no matter where he plays, the problem there is a lack of quality mids pool-wide after our top handful.

    As far as the NT you don't want MLS to be the peak of a players' career. But you do want it to increasingly become a platform when young to move up the pyramid. And that's happening.

    But it's still a numbers game. The more talent we have flow thru MLS combined with more talent that flows thru Europe, the higher quality the top 1% of our pool becomes. Most do not make it. That goes for MLS or a KDLF putzing around Europe.

    So when you zero in on a Morris or Acosta, Europe isn't really gonna help them. As they pretty much are what they are when even considering a move abroad. It goes back to the numbers game. We have some quality in our elite young core. But there's a massive drop off.

    The problem as to why we don't have a quality striker isn't MLS v Europe. It's that that player isn't there no matter which continent. And while we hope someone like Pepi keeps developing as he's young, there again he has both MLS/Euro background. The problem as to why we don't have a young Dempsey lighting MLS on fire isn't MLS v Europe. It's that that talent isn't there at the moment. And that goes back to we still have a shallow and limited player pool vs top nations. And ultimately when we do have true high quality depth, you're gonna see connections to MLS being a part of it. Just like an Arg or Bra domestically.
     
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