2022 World Cup

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 18, 2022.

  1. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    In this championship I am taking ratings from Whoscored, Sofascore, Fotmob, Football Ratings and the Spanish newspapers As and Marca. I intend to add more sources, but at the moment I haven't had time to look for others, but I will. Averaging the 6 sources and taking into account that in order to be a meaningful rating, I have decided to discard all those players who have not played more than one game and those who, even if they have played more, do not exceed 99 minutes, to summarize their performances in the first phase. While waiting for the football ratings to continue to appear, the results ordered from highest to lowest and that have obtained an average of at least 6.80 are those shown in the attached image. Once I have added all the scores indicated above, I will post the update of that first phase and the possible changes in the XI, which will be based on the average scores.

    En este campeonato estoy anotando los ratings de Whoscored, Sofascore, Fotmob, Football Ratings y de los diarios españoles As y Marca. Tengo la intención de añadir más fuentes, pero de momento no he tenido tiempo de buscar otras, pero lo haré. Haciendo el promedio de las 6 fuentes y teniendo en cuenta que para que sea una calificación significativa, he decidido descartar todos aquellos jugadores que no hayan jugado más que un partido y aquellos, que aunque lo hayan hecho en más, no superen los 99 minutos, para resumir sus actuaciones en la primera fase. A la espera de que sigan apareciendo las notas de football ratings, los resultados ordenados de mayor a menor y que han obtenido una media de al menos 6,80 son los que se exponen en la imagen adjunta. Una vez haya añadido la totalidad de las notas antes indicada, pondré la actualización de esa primera fase y los posibles cambios en el XI, que se basarán en las notas medias.

    XI primera fase mundial.jpg
     
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  2. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Yesterday, Marca newspaper offered its ideal XI of the first phase. It is as follows: Szczesny; Achraf Hakimi, Souttar, Gvardiol, Jordi Alba; Griezmann, Casemiro, Bruno Fernandes; Doan, Mbappé and Gapko.

    El diario Marca ofreció ayer su XI ideal de la primera fase. Es el siguiente: Szczesny; Achraf Hakimi, Souttar, Gvardiol, Jordi Alba; Griezmann, Casemiro, Bruno Fernandes; Doan, Mbappé y Gapko.
     
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  3. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    The same newspaper reports two other XIs of this first phase:

    Revelation XI: Al Owais; Rezaeian, Castelletto, Itakura, Robinson; Amrabat, Adams, Enzo Fernandez; Kudus, Julian Alvarez and Ismaila Sarr.

    Disappointing XI: Neuer; Sule, Khoukhi, Schlotterbeck, Baba; Ramsey, Tielemans, Eriksen; Bale, Lukaku, Eden Hazard.

    El mismo diario hace otros dos XI de esta primera fase:

    XI revelación: Al Owais; Rezaeian, Castelletto, Itakura, Robinson; Amrabat, Adams, Enzo Fernández; Kudus, Julián Álvarez e Ismaila Sarr.

    XI decepción: Neuer; Sule, Khoukhi, Schlotterbeck, Baba; Ramsey, Tielemans, Eriksen; Bale, Lukaku, Eden Hazard.
     
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  4. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I also put, as a curiosity, the best XI of the teams eliminated in the first phase and the average of the most significant players of those teams.

    Pongo también, como curiosidad el mejor XI de los equipos eliminados en la primera fase y el promedio de los jugadores más significativos de dichos equipos.

    XI eliminados primera fase mundial.jpg
     
  5. Al Gabiru

    Al Gabiru Member

    Jan 28, 2020
    Great job, Titanlux

    You could also make two separate columns in the future: one with newspaper ratings and one with ratings from analytics sites. I think it's apples and oranges. The newspaper is more intuitive. It would be the eye test. And analytics sites are automatic, with an algorithm. Just a small suggestion.

    Anyway, where are the ratings for the blog "football-ratings" from? From the blog itself or some newspaper? It doesn't say on the blog.

    Another source could be the brazilian site Globoesporte. Who publishes the ratings in the post-match reports. But you would have to go game by game.
     
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  6. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Newspaper ratings are absolute joke, in general. One, trained person who knows football can, at most, focus on and somewhat accurately evaluate two players at the time and even then you are running the risk of falling into the whole list of countless biases. It would take one person 10-15 rewatches to evaluate all players in one game.

    If multiple people evaluate players then the whole thing loses its purpose because it's impossible to unify a criteria..

    On the other hand, algorithms lack common sense and can be off by a substantial amount, but even so, I trust algorithms more than newspapers..

    At least algorthim's mistakes are predictable and accountable, but there are as many different biases and mistakes as there are humans invovled (impossible to account for).
     
  7. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Mbappe with an all time great wc performance.. he is the best player in the world now. No doubt.. he has firmly entered the Henry, Ronaldinho, Zidane,.. territory.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #58 PuckVanHeel, Dec 5, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2022
    I'm not sure whether the South Africans with a link to this place are particularly football-minded; also the coloured ones.

    I've read something along the lines of the football-minded being undernourished (often - it's also mentioned in the Soccernomics book), and once they get access to the right resources, they take on a 'middle class' mindset and distinction, which precisely weakens a bit of their football ties. Something similar - and I'm guessing now a bit more - might be true for Indonesia (a far, far larger population and on paper potential). Most of the famous black South Africans in this country have shown their love for other enterprises, not football. Both South Africans and Indonesians do regularly show parades of the types we never see here (quite weird imho how enormously pro-Holland the black south africans were in 2010). We have also one the largest Indian contingents here (according to the Indian government itself), and those do not 'provide' footballers either.

    I personally agree more with @feyenoordsoccerfan his view, although I do not think we really have one unified and "unique" (hierarchical) structure and pyramid. In contrast to an Iceland, Norway or Germany we do not have one integrated (Ajax-based?) system, in my eyes. Historically the FA has always been rather weak.

    If you care less about 'integrity' and more about success you might have a look at e.g. Portugal or Croatia who both have 7 players born abroad each. You might also look at our current age pyramid and compare that to a France, Argentina or Uruguay (France their under-20 population is at the moment 5.2 times as high; they'll not age as badly as Italy, Spain and perhaps Germany if they don't take in too many immigrants).

    Nationality is not something "fixed" but pieces like that one by the wokist-gay-lhbt activist Adam Crafton are shambolic (and poor at many levels; the claim in that piece about Suriname rather supporting Germany than 'Holland' is laughable and has no base in anything). Some others show some self-knowledge, this is lol (piece). Compared to a number of other (larger, smaller) countries (incl. France, for sure - Italy is the most glaring one) we have never drawn too much on players born and/or raised elsewhere (esp. after independence).

    The notion of countries being "responsible" for "great players" not born and educated there (nor by their methods or whatsoever) is risible and - indeed - it is racist (and 'The Athcrappic' has never applied this to Italy or one of their other closely-covered darlings where their readers have an emotional attachment to).

    edit: FIFA has recently relaxed the nationality rules again, as lobbied by the non-European countries...
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'm not in the position to compare but what is your impression of the 'best' HOL/BEL players?
    (Lukaku had indeed a famously inept/unfortunate game, yet he also showed what a difference he makes compared to not playing at all)
     
  10. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Still way too soon. He will reach there if he continues play great and maybe makes a better choice of club. If he wins this World Cup, i think he will be rated up there
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'd say Gakpo and De Jong (both potentially moving to my 2nd XI now, as much as things would be changing every day in theory and we're only mid-way through the round of 16 of course, since Gakpo can be placed on the right of the attack in the right forward/AM position - it's a bit similar to Bergkamp for 1994 in that respect I think, with the role varying a bit depending on team set-up...although on the 1994 thread I placed Bergkamp in the CF position as a backup choice for group stage and then moved him deeper...which might seem the wrong way round lol, so it was more to do with the other options at particular times, and fitting him in a reasonably feasible place, which like I say can be similar for Gakpo I think - any of the 3 forward positions probably ok if I use a 4-3-3 type line-up). Maybe neither showing everything of their best (De Jong not brilliant in game 1 maybe, although he did get an assist and maybe one or two 'bad' moments can be over-stated, but gradually getting into the swing of things and with some excellent moments of composure (and maybe it's not quite a 'Clodoaldo-equivalent' but he started the team goal vs USA from 0:55 in effect!)
    Netherlands beat USA 3-1 to reach quarter-finals | World Cup 2022 - YouTube
    Gakpo perhaps a little conservative in his play (but his dribble success is 100%, including 3 from 3 attempts in the last game in which I felt he played well for sure), but with good finishes and playing an efficient goalscoring talisman role in the group).

    Other than Alderweirald that I put as 2nd right centre back in my group stage diagram in the end, I'm not really sure for Belgium - De Bruyne of course still set up some chances and made some good passes but overall wasn't consistently exceptional, and maybe his decision making was even a bit less impressive than normal. Courtois had an excellent 1st game, but obviously not 2nd game. Various players had their moments of good play, but none really made a consistently impressive mark on the World Cup I guess, but the final performance vs Croatia probably was the best one and they could have scored a goal or two and gone through in the end (they got pretty close to it, and it was at least an 'even' kind of game I'd say against a team that had a very good match the previous time).
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I see on the Football-Ratings site now that England/France player ratings are there after 4 games (so not only a group stage summary but considering the games of yesterday too), from 'International sports press and media' without specifying which sources exactly (it suggests more than just Italian ones I'd guess though?)

    "Average ratings in international sports press and media.


    7,28 Kylian Mbappé (4 rated appearances)
    6,97 Marcus Rashford (3)
    6,90 Phil Foden (3)
    6,82 Jude Bellingham (4)
    6,77 Bukayo Saka, Olivier Giroud (3)
    6,65 Antoine Griezmann (4)
    6,60 Theo Hernández (3)
    6,52 Harry Kane (4)
    6,48 Gareth Southgate
    6,42 Didier Deschamps
    6,36 Team average England
    6,35 Harry Maguire, Ousmane Dembélé (4)
    6,30 Callum Wilson (2)
    6,28 Luke Shaw, Adrien Rabiot (4)
    6,27 Jordan Henderson (3)
    6,25 Jordan Pickford (4), Raheem Sterling (2)
    6,23 Hugo Lloris (3)
    6,22 Team average France
    6,20 Declan Rice (4), Mason Mount (2)
    6,15 Jack Grealish, Aurélien Tchouaméni (4)
    6,12 John Stones (4)
    6,10 Kieran Trippier (3)
    6,05 Kyle Walker, Marcus Thuram (2)
    5,97 Raphaël Varane, Dayot Upamecano (3)
    5,85 Jules Koundé (2)
    5,77 Kingsley Coman (3)
    5,25 Youssouf Fofana (2)"

    I remember thinking Kingsley Coman actually did pretty well in the 1st game (or showed some promise anyway IIRC)! Coming on as a late sub though, and since that game he's not really had any stand-out moments and I guess been on the fringes or lost the ball cheaply a bit maybe - could be more the first one but he was on the pitch for 63 minutes vs Tunisia....).
     
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  13. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Thank you very much for your suggestions. Actually it is a matter of mixing, as you say, objective evaluations with subjective ones; although when few games are taken into account, important differences can occur, when the sample is increased (more games), the deviation between the objective and the subjective tends to diminish. Nevertheless, I will take this into account in case it may be useful in the future. Regarding football ratings, as in dbscalcio, the specific sources are not usually made clear, something that could be really useful. A few times I have expressed the same doubt without, for the moment, anyone has clarified that curiosity. In the case of the second source I have noticed greater differences in the averages obtained by my own means. Regarding football ratings, the author indicates his sources but does not specify which ones he uses per game; what they do seem very low in general, something that, on the other hand, is not bad for me, since they compensate in part for the high ratings of the whoscored type webs.
    On the other hand, I hope, little by little, as I have done with other events, to include more ratings, because the more data, the fairer the final averages will be, diluting the sources that are out of the average with more evidence. By the way, thank you very much for your last contribution regarding the Globoesporte source. I will certainly add it. For a question of time available, for the moment, until the end of the championship, I will continue with the 6 sources, to progressively and unhurriedly add more, such as, for example, the one you indicate. Thank you very much for everything.

    Muchas gracias por tus sugerencias. En realidad se trata de mezclar como tu dices, valoraciones objetivas con las subjetivas; si bien cuando se toman en cuenta pocos partidos, pueden darse diferencias importantes, al aumentar la muestra (más partidos), la desviación entre lo objetivo y lo subjetivo tiende a aminorarse. No obstante, lo tomaré en cuenta por si puede resultarme útil en el futuro. Respecto a football ratings, al igual que en dbscalcio, no se suelen aclarar las fuentes concretas, algo que podría resultar verdaderamente útil. Algunas veces he expresado esa misma duda sin que, de momento, nadie me haya aclarado esa curiosidad. En el caso de la segunda fuente he notado mayores diferencias en los promedios obtenidos por mis propios medios. Respecto a football ratings, el autor indica sus fuentes pero no especifica las que usa por partido; lo que sí parecen muy bajas en general, algo que, por otra parte no me viene mal, pues compensan en parte las altas calificaciones de las webs tipo whoscored.
    Por otra parte, espero, poco a poco, al igual que he realizado con otros eventos, ir incluyendo más ratings, pues cuantos más datos, más justos serán los promedios finales, diluyendo las fuentes que se salen de la media con mayor evidencia. Por cierto, muchas gracias por tu última aportación en relación con la fuente Globoesporte. No tengas duda de que la añadiré. Por una cuestión de tiempo disponible, de momento, hasta el final del campeonato, seguiré con las 6 fuentes, para progresivamente y sin prisas ir añadiendo más, como, por ejemplo esta que me indicas. Muchas gracias por todo.
     
  14. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    It is true that, on occasions, the ratings of newspapers differ from each other, as in the case of "As" and "Marca", where sometimes the same player in the same match is given totally opposite ratings, but it is also true that there are more occasions in which there is coincidence in a criterion. Although a sample of one or two newspapers is not enough to obtain a reliable conclusion, the sum of a larger number of sources puts things in place. To give you an idea, for the ratings of the Spanish league I have 4 sources from the mid 70's; it is striking that in some players, the averages that I get from the sources can have up to 1.5 points difference in the most radical cases. Having two sources from Madrid and another two from Catalonia compensate the possible favoritism of the chronicler; taking into account that since I was a child I have been very fond of soccer and statistics, the final results satisfy me, since, although my personal opinion is not taken into account at all, these results are quite similar to what I remembered.

    There is no single source that alone gives significance to a study of this type, but the sum of several sources brings the conclusions closer to "reality". In other words, the sum of a sufficient number of subjective opinions can lead to a fairer and more reliable result.

    Es cierto que, en ocasiones, los ratings de los periódicos distan entre sí, como es el caso del "As" y del "Marca", donde en ocasiones, al mismo jugador en el mismo partido se les da calificaciones totalmente opuestas, pero también es cierto que hay más ocasiones en los que hay coincidencia en un criterio. Si bien para obtener una conclusión fiable, una muestra de uno dos periódicos no es suficiente, la suma de una cantidad mayor de fuentes ve poniendo las cosas en su sitio. Para que te hagas una idea, para las calificaciones de la liga española cuento con 4 fuentes a partir de mediados de los "70,s"; llama la atención que en algunos jugadores, los promedios que me salen de las fuentes pueden tener hasta 1,5 puntos de diferencia en los casos más radicales. El tener dos fuentes madrileñas y otras dos catalanas compensan los posibles favoritismos del cronista; teniendo en cuenta, además que desde pequeño he sido muy aficionado al fútbol y a la estadística, los resultados finales me satisfacen, ya que, aunque mi opinión personal no la tengo en cuenta para nada, esos resultados se parecen bastante a lo que recordaba.

    No hay ninguna fuente que por sí sola dé significatividad a un estudio de este tipo, pero la suma de varias van acercando las conclusiones a la "realidad". Dicho de otra manera, la suma de un número suficiente de opiniones subjetivas, puede dar lugar a un resultado más justo y con mayor fiabilidad.
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I think I heard the BBC commentator say the World Cup final is one day after Mbappes 24th birthday

    He can potentially be a 24 year old with 2 World Cup trophies
    One as the best young player and one as the best player overall
    To me that is astonishing


    However I’m not sure about any performance vs this Poland( a brace,hat trick,poker etc) being considered ATG

    Poland had the most blunt attack of any team in the entire tournament
    They cannot create,can’t score and can’t even string together 3 passes

    They were Probably if not definitely the absolute worst team to progress to the KO stages this year
    If I can find the infograph of Mbappe vs Poland in the 2022 World Cup i will post it

    Poland the NT had less shots,goals,chances created then 1 player

    They were absolutely embarrassing
    No offence to any polish guys here if there are any



    If Mbappe repeats this against England then we can start talking

    Not trying to diminish his achievements in the slightest
    Everyone knows Mbappe is the best World Cup performer of his generation and arguably the previous generation aswell

    You cannot cry about recency bias in other places and then talk about 2 goals vs Poland 2022 being ATG
    Just because it happened in the first round of the World Cup KO stages lol
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Absurd PK in favor of Brazil (there was no contact), and no VAR review either!!

    Of course, they are miles better regardless.

    We are going to see the three Qatar/PSG boys in the semi finals. I'd quickly order a dozen LNG-tankers if I was England..
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Interesting:


     
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  18. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Since Messi has been sprinting like his younger self (vitamin Z), he can play on the right;

    GK - Livakovic
    RB - Hakimi
    RCB - Castelletto
    LIB - De Jong
    LB - Sandro
    CM - Bellingham
    CM - Fernandes
    AM - Griezmann
    RW - Messi
    LW - Mbappé
    F9 - Gakpo
     
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  19. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Mate, could you point me to the specific link where the ratings are located? Thank you very much.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    We can maybe start with keeping the Moroccans. Those are after all entirely born and raised here. Often they don't know the Arabic language, cannot read it.

    Typically, the tone is in that instance entirely different by the usual suspects. No "Benelux is responsible for Morocco" (6 players in 2018, 7 in 2022) takes this time.

    They have stolen three starters from us (plus the supersub); more players than any other country.

    https://theathletic.com/3935412/2022/11/26/belgium-canada-morocco-croatia-immigration-world-cup/
    https://www.ft.com/content/8b9cb6ee-92fe-4424-b3e6-aa9a2f099973

    Hopefully Spain will burn them. They are the real 'free riders' in this competition.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    After seeing yesterday's evening match, I think Brazil might come to regret the decision to play Thiago Silva. Against equally matched teams. At 38 years old he looks a bit of a liability in a back four, large spaces, not defending very deep etc.

    There is some protection ahead of him (Casemiro), but the full-backs can leave him exposed and he doesn't turn as quickly/nimbly as before. At Chelsea he has excelled with two other CB next to him and sitting deeper.

    Feels like an emotional choice to play him (as captain) instead of the other capable ones they have (with enough ppl in the XI to organize the lot). Just as Dani Alves in the squad has some sentimentality to it.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I guess we'll see in the next games then whether he gets exposed at all in an even kind of match with a potent and fast attack. He is not likely to play vs Mbappe (at least until a Final potentially), but Gakpo might be playing against him maybe (and would likely be more in his area of the pitch than Mbappe too).

    The Dani Alves pick: I think I agree on that yeah, as he doesn't really seem the same player anymore and is only getting a few minutes here and there, but I suppose Brazil is not as stacked as often has been the case for their right backs.
     
  23. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Julio Maldonado "Maldini" also proposes his ideal XI of the 1st phase on his Youtube channel, with a 4-2-1-3 formation:
    Szczesny; Achraf Hakimi, Otamendi, Gvardiol, Theo Hernandez; Casemiro, Enzo Fernandez; Griezmann; Ziyech, Morata, Mbappé. Mention others who almost made this XI: Saiss, Bellingham, Musiala, Valencia, Bruno Fernandes, Kudus and Messi.
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #74 PuckVanHeel, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
    This is also something interesting from 4.5 years ago (they are a well-known football consultancy firm). I.e. missing players are together 'better' as the favorites.



    Unfortunately, Spain with 77% possession and one shot on target lost against the 'stealers' :( (the last pk taker very fitting). Amrabat was great.

    edit: this doesn't look too well for the Golden Generations

     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One Spaniard mentioned and precisely the one they missed. A goalscorer. :thumbsup: (think of the naturalized Diego Costa previously)
     

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