What constitutes a "great" World Cup and why?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Guinho, Nov 30, 2022.

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What constitutes a successful world cup for you?

  1. Qualifying for group stage

    2 vote(s)
    3.6%
  2. Round of 16

    18 vote(s)
    32.1%
  3. Quarterfinals

    29 vote(s)
    51.8%
  4. Semifinals

    5 vote(s)
    8.9%
  5. Finals (for you trolls out there. ;)

    2 vote(s)
    3.6%
  1. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Having watched the US-Iran post game thread, I have to ask, what is the bar for a performance at the World Cup to be considered:
    a) Unacceptable
    b) Acceptable
    c) Great?


    I will go first:
    USSF and Berhalter (and Klinsmann) have sold their goal as taking the U.S. to the "next level" and progressing the program.

    For me, that immediately means that success is something the U.S. has *not* accomplished repeatedly before.

    Achieving the Round of 16 is something the U.S. has done 5 of the last 7 times we have been at the World Cup (5 of the last 8 tournaments). This is the minimum bar of a successful status quo coach. It is what is expected (1994, 2002, 2010, 2014, 2022).

    Anything less is failure (1998, 2006, and yes, 2018).

    It is NOT "next level"

    When Berhalter or Klinsmann promised next level, what that means is appearances in the quarter finals. The next level of the program is the one where the U.S. achieves this *repeatedly*. If USSF has done what it said it would do, the U.S. should be in the quarterfinals this cup, and in 2026 as well.

    THAT is the bar now.
     
  2. usfootball20

    usfootball20 Member+

    May 15, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Biggest thing for me is that we can compete with teams in the 3–10 range (no idea if we can compete with Brazil and France). I actually feel like we have a shot to play soccer against that second tier versus needing a GK to be superhuman.
     
  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #3 Clint Eastwood, Nov 30, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
    Appearance in the knockout round is nicely meeting expectations.
    Making a quarterfinal is exceeding expectations, and a great World Cup.
    We're not one of the 8 best teams in the World. Best 16? Yes, that's what our FIFA ranking says we are.

    [I will say that it kind of depends on the draw. We got a draw that made us think advancement was achievable. Canada was drawn with the #2 and #7 ranked teams in the World. We know advancement was going to be tough for them.]

    I will say this, we should never take qualifying for the World Cup for granted. Nor should we ever take advancing to the knockout round for granted. Did people see videos of the USMNT locker room after the game? Did ya see how much it meant to those guys? Some of them were in tears. For a young player like Antonee Robinson, its a hell of an achievement.

    Just as a reminder, Germany didn't advance to the knockout round in 2018. Its in danger of failing to do so again in 2022. Italy hasn't even qualified. Uruguay is unlikely to advance. These are nations that have WON the World Cup. So let's not take it for granted.
     
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  4. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Winning every game 3-0 and breaking the all time xG record by at least 24.75 %.

    Seriously, at this tournament I’d say the quarters would be “great” given the overall age of the group. The parameters could change for 2026.
     
  5. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I don't really disagree with the implied premise here that a quarterfinals finish would be the minimum requirement for a truly great tournament, but I also think that getting out of the group is still enough of a challenge to merit celebrating that achievement as something more than merely acceptable. Teams much better than us routinely fail to make it out of their groups in each World Cup. And there just isn't enough separating us and the bottom 17 in any World Cup (including the likes of Wales, Iran, Ghana, Slovenia, Algeria, Poland, etc.) to treat our advancement over those teams as a given.
     
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  6. CardHack

    CardHack New Member

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Oct 13, 2017
    Fair or not, we just came through a Group that had three countries in the FIFA Top 22 undefeated...with a realistic chance at getting 9 points but ending up with 5. We didn't allow a single goal either with or against run of play. To shutout an England that had crapped goals all over the pitch in the game prior shouldn't be dismissed. As far as World Cup experiences go this sets up as very unique compared to prior USMNT squads...and a squad that had virtually no prior World Cup experience coupled with a pool that had very little qualifying experience. I would add...the two goals we have scored have been anything but fluky or against run of play...they were World Class buildups with multiple touch sequences ending with perfectly played passes into perfectly timed runs and inch perfect finishes. Aside from Green's goal against Belgium in extra time I don't know that we had that caliber of sequence in WC 2014.

    The USMNT follower when you pull the curtain back has to really say wow when in that context; the next step is probably less final 16 or quarters but to beat one of the recognized World powers like we did Portugal in Group in 2002. Do the Dutch scratch that itch?
     
  7. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    QF at a home world cup with this generation of players would be a total failure in my eyes.
     
  8. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    teams much better than the USA routinely fail to make it out of the groups???

    okay list those teams please.
     
  9. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Yes, absolutely it’s an achievement. If Germany squeaks through, there is going to be a party.
    Great point. The only program that has never failed to qualify (or advance out of the group stage? Is that right?”) is Brazil. Everyone else has to work for it.

    fair point
     
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  10. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    Germany in 2018. Spain, Italy, Portugal, and England in 2014. France and Italy in 2010. France, Portugal, and Argentina in 2002. And so on.
     
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  11. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Member+

    Nov 10, 2010
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Round of 16. At that point its single elimination and anything can happen.
     
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  12. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The question is phrased oddly. In one place, it asks what's "great" and in another what's "succesful." Those are different standards.

    My standing expectation is to make the knockout rounds. That's a success, but it isn't necessarily great.
     
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  13. RossD

    RossD Member+

    Aug 17, 2013
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I think not getting to the 2nd round would be disappointing, but disappointing s**t happens every day in life. I think playing against Netherlands with a chance to move on, whether we win or lose, would be an accomplishment.
     
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  14. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Agree with this. I'd say successful is getting out of the group. This group was not particularly difficult so for me, taking second in it was the bare minimum.

    A great tournament is 2002. That's the only great World Cup of any of our lifetimes. That's the standard. If we beat the Dutch, that's a great tournament. And I think we have a shot that is better than a "hope Matt Turner becomes Tim Howard v Belgium and Haji Wright takes our one chance better than Wondolowski."

    Moral victories, stylistic improvements, and that type of thing are for moments in between World Cups.
     
  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Its difficult to qualify for the World Cup in the first place. Always is. People forget how difficult qualifying in 2002 was (We failed to beat Guatemala both home and away). Then we squeeked out of the group after Poland kicked our asses. We were all white-knuckling it as Portugal assaulted South Korea's goal. We were inches from going out. It was out of our control.

    There was no Poland game this World Cup. People forget we finished 3rd in our group in 94, and still advanced. [All people seem to remember is the Colombia game, and not the poor performance against Romania. Romania won the group.] Maybe there's a new generation of fans that didn't watch us get blown off the field by the Czech Republic in 2006. A roster with McBride, Donovan, Dempsey, Beasley, Pope, Bocanegra, Cherundolo, Keller, Howard, Reyna, O'Brien and these "legends" of the USMNT. We advanced by the skin of our teeth in 2010 after a last minute Donovan goal against Algeria.

    When we look back at this group phase compared to other group phases, one can argue that it was our best performance ever in a group phase (in the modern era). Cuz really.....................we only conceded one frickin' goal. And that wasn't from the run of play. We outplayed England. We totally dominated much of the game against Wales and Iran. We all note that we just don't yet have the finishers in the group to blow teams out. We don't blow out El Salvador for Heaven's sake. Why would people expect us to blow out Iran, which is a significantly better team? Our team also seems too run out of gas pretty quickly. We have some young players that just go 100 miles an hour in the first half of these games. Maybe over time they'll pace themselves more. Know when to take some breaks.
     
  16. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Proud moment for me to cast the first vote for finals!

    MMA all the way baby.
     
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  17. eagercolin

    eagercolin Member

    Metro
    United States
    Aug 25, 2017
    Buffalo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is good perspective. Even our best performances have been rough rides.
     
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  18. UncagedGorilla

    Barcelona
    Sep 22, 2009
    East Bay, CA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    I'd argue 2014 was a bit more comfortable with us beating Ghana then tying Portugal (close him down, MB90!). Portugal couldn't catch us on goal differential so my only fear was they would mail it in and Ghana would end up blowing them out and/or Germany would decide to care.

    That being said, point taken. Getting out of the group isn't easy. Qualifying isn't easy. Those of us who have been watching for 30 years understand that. An underrated part of 2006 is just how easily we qualified. It was still the best I ever remember us looking consistently. I remember some talk of us possibly sneaking into the top 8 in FIFA and being a pot one team. Probably wishful thinking but we got up to #4 in the lead up to that World Cup.
     
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  19. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Oh, you! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
  20. Papin

    Papin BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 19, 1998
    le côté obscur
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What strikes me about this world cup is that we have a very young -- some might say naive -- team with the most talented players the U.S. has ever had. More importantly, however, is that this team has come together and now had the experience of grinding out results against top 20 teams without having to spend 90% of the match bunkering. The Iran match to me is the most meaningful. You've got a bunch of young guys who all suffered together in a do-or-die situation. They did not wilt. This is the kind of grit and mentality that will serve this team well in years to come. You can have all the talent in the world, but it's the mentality that creates champions.
     
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  21. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My soccer experience of the last three years has mostly been you folks talking me off the ledge. Thanks.

    Fine. I will grudgingly accept that, yes, in fact this was the best overall performance over three games in a group stage the U.S. has had to date. No goals conceded from run of play, a "magisterial" performance against England. Never trailing. Actually having a lead to defend in game 3. Those are *all* real milestones.

    I will now return to my cave for more regularly scheduled curmudgeonly grumbling.
     
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  22. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    For me, there are 6 or so teams with great players and enough depth that they have a shot at winning it all. There are another 20 teams in a second tier. We use to be in the bottom half of that tier but now we've moved into the top half. Until we get some great players and build up our depth, that's where we're going to stay.

    Don't advance: Disappointment
    Advance: Expected, but I'm still happy because so many things can go wrong (Hi Italy!)
    Make it to the QF: Better than expected but certainly possible. Good world cup!
    Make it to the SF: Unlikely but not impossible. Fantastic world cup!

    Making each step up in quality gets harder and harder. Right now, I don't think any of our guys are in the top 10 at their position and our center forwards are not in the top 100. Hopefully, it will be different in four years.
     
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  23. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #23 Clint Eastwood, Nov 30, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
    Well........................I think the World Cup is this way for the overwhelming majority of teams.
    Its rare for even the best teams to go thru the group phase without some white-knuckle moments. Brazil historically is just the best in the group phase.

    The majority of "big teams" in WC2022 have games in which they've suffered. Frickin' Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia, and their advancement isn't yet assured. They have Poland next, which isn't an easy opponent. Germany has only one point over their first two games, and their advancement isn't assured. Belgium came in as the #2 team in the World (flying thru qualifying), and they've really suffered. Advancement is no guarantee for them at all. Holland drew with Ecuador, and could have lost that game.

    We can look thru the history of all of these "big teams" and see terrible results. Germany has won cups, but also has some awful results in the group phase. Note: Hungary 8 Germany 3. Magical Magyars.

    There just seems to be this idea that we had an "easy group" and should have advanced more comfortably. As if we're Brazil or France. I don't buy that at all. This was always going to be tough. Iran, Wales, and the US were closely matched teams. Hence why all three us of thought we could advance.
     
  24. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    And we have our first example this tournament of a team (Denmark) that's clearly top 16 in this tournament on talent and in rankings, and clearly top 2 in their group on talent and in rankings, and they're heading home early. This sort of thing really does happen routinely, and I'm pumped that wasn't us.
     
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  25. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    With our talent, Round of 16 is acceptable but not great. Quarterfinals might be great, at least on an intellectual level.

    It's a little hard to say because so far we're getting there playing effective soccer but not what I would consider our best soccer. If we get to the quarters scoring two goals I'm not sure that would be great, although it would be successful.
     

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