MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Then why are arguing with me?

    Any chance you can help this guy?

     
  2. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's sorta pointless to argue with some people, when they have a clear bias. It's kind of a shame to still have an axe to grind with MLS, its fans and basically anyone connected to the league at this point.

    All players going to a stronger league are going to notice the difference in stuff like speed of play, but also athleticism, intensity etc. that they have to adjust to. To contort that reality to act like it's something that only happens to MLS players, or is a deficiency about MLS specifically reveals either an agenda or a great deal of ignorance.
     
  3. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Who are you talking about? 50/50? Why wouldn't someone who thinks the agenda of MLS is hurting the USMNT be critical of it? I am not sure why a fan of MLS wouldn't see all the things they think they could do to improve raise them in hopes that the league could get better?

    If everyone would have just admitted that first time I raised this concept, I would have never mentioned it again. We all could have spent this time tracking whether they were closing gaps in these areas. Nobody has suggested MLS is the only league with these challenges. This thread is about comparing MLS to European football.

    One more thought. The intent of this discussion isnt about "stronger" leagues, but about what environment is best for developing American players. There are many places that most would think that aren't as "strong" as MLS, but are still more technical and have higher speed of play. I watched quite a bit of Eastern division games a few years ago and thought Ledezma's environment was better for hisndevelopment at he time than Pomykals in Dallas.

    As a usmnt fan, this shortcoming of the league in general is a huge deal. People have been talking about how MLS players struggle with the speed of play at the international level. Fix it or stop putting these guys on the national team.
     
  4. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You act like you're the only person in the room that sees room for improvement. Do you think MLS clubs are reading in here, waiting for your latest insight? We've collectively had this discussion over and over and over and, despite the massive improvements in the league over the last 10-15 years, you still seem to have the same length of list of "Reasons why MLS sux" as when we started it.


    If everyone were just happy with their dictator, then there wouldn't be any problems.

    You've spent zero time in the last decade "tracking" anything--no matter the improvement, no matter the documents presented, articles written, evidence on the field (and via increased sales to increasingly higher-quality European clubs), you just shit on it all as insufficient. Don't pretend like you give half a shit about what MLS clubs do to improve.

    A reasonable statement! Yay! Yes, I think most people would agree that PSV is a very good place for young players to develop. In fact, they are very well known for this around the world. Heracles, on the other hand, is not. It's a club by club kind of thing, not "Eredivisie good, MLS bad". Dallas, NYRB, Philly, Seattle all seem like good developers. Chicago, Portland, Houston, not so much.

    Who are the people that "have been talking" about MLS players struggling with the speed of play at international level? How will we know when MLS players have surpassed the bsky22 Threshold™ for "international speed of play"? Is there some statistic for that, or is it solely based on the bsky22 Eye Test™?
     
  5. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    You can't be a USMNT fan and not be an MLS fan.
    Its biting off your nose to spite your face.
    Virtually all of the players in the USMNT have played at an MLS academy or signed MLS first team deals.

    People do realize that half the league is less than 10 years old. Right? MLS improves year after year after year after year. Particulary the academy setups, which is starting to churn out young players that European clubs want. Those clubs like NYRB, Dallas, RSL, LAG, PHI, etc. that have been doing it a while are the ones really developing. But a whole bunch of teams are on the way. You can't be on one thread talking about the greatness of Haji Wright, without realizing he's an LAG academy product. Right? Or maybe you can. Or that Weston McKennie spent 7 years at Dallas. He's not the player he is without FC Dallas. You can't talk about the greatness of Tyler Adams in one thread, and then bash MLS in another. Cuz Tyler Adams spent 9 years with the NYRB organization.

    The USMNT CANNOT, let me repeat that, cannot become a serious challenger for a World Cup without MLS developing into a major league. Note that the only European nations to win World Cups are Germany, France, England, Spain, and Italy. My my, will you look at that? Those nations have the top 5 domestic leagues. Coincidence? No. Since 1950 the only other nations to win it have been the two best leagues in the Western Hemisphere. Argentina and Brazil. [At the time anyway, one can make an argument that Liga MX has matched them. Argentina has problems right now.]
     
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  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I had to cut the first few paragraphs. Thay were reading like a top 10 list of straw men used by MLS fans when they don't like a topic.

    There was a typo in my last paragraph. The end of the sentence got cut off.. It was supposed to say that

    "People have been talking about how MLS players struggle with the speed of play at the international level for a long time"

    Sorry for the confusion. Let me know if you would like to discuss further.
     
  7. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're impossible to discuss anything with. You do know what a straw man is, right? It's when someone argues against a point no one is making. There were no "straw men" in anything I said--it was all directly about you and your behavior in discussions about MLS over the years. But I never expected you'd do anything other than deflect anyway.

    Your "typo" doesn't change a thing. So, again, I ask: how will we know when MLS players have surpassed the bsky22 Threshold™ for "international speed of play"? Is there some statistic for that, or is it solely based on the bsky22 Eye Test™?
     
  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Yes, I know what a straw man is. You continually misrepresent what I write.

    What is up with he big font? The words are just as nonsensical. You guys and statistcs.

    Back when we didn't have a ton of players abroad and we HAD to rely on MLS players to fill out the squad, every cycle there would be a few pedestrian players that MLS fans would prop up as the next best thing, only to fail miserably for the usmnt. After a few shots, I vaguely recall the general consensus was that "he couldn't adjust to the speed of play". Anyway, I searched "speed of play" and found this from almost 20 years ago (I am sure you can find the actual thread if you wanted).

     
  9. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It won't be hard to convince me. All it will take is somebody releasing the tracking data giving average speed to close down or some such. I'm not a big folk tales guy in sports. I like data because people's eye tests are often wrong.

    Hell, you could convince me if you watch a few games with a stopwatch and report your findings.

    I thought of a possible proxy for time, passes under pressure maybe.

    According to Statsbomb Busio attempted 17.8% of his 2021 MLS live ball passes under pressure and 17.2 percent of his liveball passes under pressure in Italy.

    .024 pct of his passes were blocked in Italy vs .018 in MLS.
     
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  10. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Anybody who makes a blanket statement that MLS is hurting the USMNT can't be taken seriously. The league has raised the level of the team and become a launching pad for young Americans.

    If some foreign league gave us Turner, Zimmerman, Miles and Aaronson we'd be happy, nobody would sit around saying that league was a detriment.
     
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  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Tell me you have never played soccer, without telling me you have never played soccer.
     
  12. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm trying to help you bolster your argument that is based on what a teenage MLS backup midfielder thinks.
     
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  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You aren't helping.

    Come on... minimizing my argument to A teenage MLS backup midfielder is so petty. I have provided evidence of what quite a few have them think... in this thread. Pretty sure just about every kid from the legendary FCD academy!!!

    If this is a controversial topic, you don't understand the game. Anybidy who has played, has experienced this. Hell, anyone who has played most sports would understand it. I am sure if we tried, we could find articles discussing it at varying levels from different types of experts. I would probably even do that legwork for you to find it, but it is clear you don't want to understand it.

    This is such a beautiful game and yet you seem to watch something very different from me. I picture you at a game trying to track stats like I used to do as a kid at baseball games. That was so boring.
     
  14. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hard to believe that you are really using a 20-year old post about Chris Klein to show that MLS players can't adjust to the international speed of play. And, yet, here it is!
     
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  15. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You don't seem to understand anything I write or more likely just an arguing tactic.

    That post was an example of how people have been talking about this for a long time.
     
  16. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm literally giving you a cold-eyed comparison tool, to use. If MLS allows players more time on the ball, shouldn't they be making less passes under pressure vs Serie A?

    The people who calculate this stuff for statsbomb have no axe to grind as far as I know.

    https://fbref.com/en/players/ac277993/scout/10090/Tanner-Tessmann-Scouting-Report

    I'll do it for you. Tessman was actually pressured more in Seria A ,21% of his live ball passes vs 17% in 2021 MLS.

    Perhaps, as another poster suggested the time on the ball has to do with more than the league. Why did Busio see the same amount of pressure in both leagues while Tessman saw more?
     
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  17. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. I never disbelieved that "people have talked about this in the past". I totally concur that Chris Klein was a wet mop, and was also par (or above) for the level of the league 20 years ago. What I dispute is who is talking about it now (other than you, of course).
     
  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont need a tool. I understand the game. I can watch a game and understand what players are experiencing.

    I can tell your statistics aren't telling what you think they are based on your conclusion on Busio. There is actually video proof in this thread.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    You know there is a search button, right? I personally know people who talk about it all the time in different contexts. I get the feeling you guys don't like discussing it because it is generally slow in MLS and those insecurities kick in. Here are a couple of different examples.

    From 2018....

    From last month...

     
  20. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Why do you think anybody is insecure about MLS? It's a fine local league and I'm happy as long as they keep producing and playing Americans. Most people seem to understand its place in the world.

    For example, I think the better MLS teams have caught up to Liga Mx when healthy. The depth vs the top Liga Mx teams is still lacking but the last 5-6 years of CCL has shown that we're at coin flipping differences between the teams.

    I think that's pretty good for a league that didn't exist when I was teenager.
     
  21. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's only the posters with an anti-MLS bias who are insecure about MLS. Most others have a pretty good sense of where MLS stands in the pecking order, but also don't automatically write off a player because he happens to play in MLS.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Because of their reaction to criticism. It is generally denying, deflecting, avoiding. I really don't think many accept where it is at and your comparison to Liga MX is an example of that. I think they ha e closed ground but still behind for various reasons.
     
  23. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Such a weird comment. I think I have a very good grasp of it and don't automatically write off MLS players. There are a few that are useful to USMNT, but most aren't. I suspect the number will grow in the next few years (they will be younger pkayers), at least in terms of the current team. Their problem is the number CP, Reyna, etc will grow, meaning the MLS player will have to be better than they are today t I be of use to the national team.
     
  24. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Most MLS fans just relate to local soccer better than following a club in another country. It’s really not that complex or agenda driven at all. Go to the MLS Reddit during a NT game day and you’ll see loads of people calling out Lletget or whoever.
     
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  25. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    The good thing is that the expanded League's Cup is going to give us the best league to league comparison we've ever seen.
     

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