MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's what Berhalter said according to the Fox team.
     
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i think you're making a fundamental error here. there are technical players abroad we don't call, so that GB can run out roldan or arriola. that is a selection decision. it's a very very awkward argument to be promoting taking 20 year olds known for hard hat work and trying to make them technicians. goooooooood luck with that.

    i mean, i do hope players work on their games and develop their weaknesses but if i want technique pick one of the technicians.

    horses for courses. basic stuff. one of my basic beefs with the coach is too many MF and F hardhats while oddly making go-forward shortcuts on wingbacks who struggle to mark. and one of my theories on LDLT is he appeals to half-smart fans who see this is a little too crude but aren't aware enough of the pool to know we have much better pool players who can produce from technicality, eg green. tonight is a pretty good lesson in if you give up a goal and seem built to pass sideways you almost play yourself into a hole. i kind of think this coach's sideways passing and possession obsessions are actually the sort of keepaway one uses to kill rather than enliven a soccer game. i then get to giggle at people thinking this makes us more technical and dangerous a team.

    you're promoting GB's bull hockey where you come in age 20 or 25 and try to change how people play. the time to work on skills really starts age 5-10. you show up age 20 to try and coach them into dutch soccer players and you have eddie johnson already cooked.

    nonsense argument.
     
  3. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i also think there is an almost willful blindness to the fact the venezia team signing busio and tessmann and others is owned by an american. i do think it's cool they are in italy as serie A had been an odd blank spot since bradley left, when i feel like our well trained and tough players are built for germany and italy. but the pretense that being there has made the careers of people sitting at the end of the season, off the NT radar, complete crap.

    and i liked tessmann at U23. i just think the push to take one type of player and force it someplace else is silly for adults. he is a type. use him for the type.
     
  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who?

    Roldan has had 36 minutes in 2022 and 1 start since last July.
     
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  5. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jozy's problems at Sunderland were many and not just due to his quality. He won a lot of fouls and penalties in the PL implying that he was making PL defenders very uncomfortable. My main takeaway from Sunderland was that the team as a whole was outmanned in almost every match.
     
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  6. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    This is a video of all of Seattle's goals in the first 3 rounds of CCL and this is the guy people are crying about being the back up to the back up.

     
  7. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    So the usual suspects have done a good job in distracting from the first post in this thread in a long time. We will wait for the next MLS player to move abroad and tell us how they struggle with the speed of play.

    In the meantime, is there any league in the world where it's fans try to convince others that a player of Roldan's ability is really good. I doubt it and think it says a lot about the fanbase.
     
  8. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have done a good job of finding teenagers to tell you that a top 5 league is better and harder for them. This isn't news. As I've said before anecdotes from athletes are notoriously unreliable. How many times did we hear about the "rising" fastball back in the day?

    Most of the "fans" hate Roldan's guts. You can summon a twitter or reddit meltdown by praising him, so you're in good company with the other people who don't watch him play.
     
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  9. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Those teenagers don't just say it about the top 5 leagues. It isnt just teenagers. You don't sound like someone that has ever played. Pretty much all players experience this at some time in their careers. Besides Gruezo, who would you believe. I get the feeling anybody. You just don't want to believe and are unable to se what is painfully obvious.

    I have watched him play over 30 times for the USMNT. Roldan doesn't have it at this level. I am not sure why you think watching play at a lower level that you are so sure about his quality.
     
  10. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    MLS players get more chances against easier teams and more forgiveness for poor performances. Arriola had two disasters flanking a fine showing against Grenada
     
  11. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not disputing the relative quality of the leagues. MLS is not on par with the big leagues and is probably short of the promotion fighting teams in Germany and England at least.

    In this back and forth I've only ever questioned the "time and space" thing because it's based on anecdote and doesn't really meet the eye test for me. It's very team and game state dependent, not something a reasonable person would assign to the whole league.

    If you play RBNY or Philly, or LAFC under Bob you are being pressed and harassed at a crazy rate. I saw Bob's LAFC team press the hell out of multiple Liga Mx teams on a neutral field.I highly doubt Pepi enjoyed a lot of time or space in those games.

    As to Roldan not having it "at this level." What level do you mean? The ocho "level" is a bunch of USL and local league guys who couldn't make the bench for Seattle. I'm not a believer that putting on a Jamaica jersey turns a Miami FC player into a better player or that the H on their shirt makes Motagua guys much better.
     
  12. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    At this point the question is how players like Roldan and Arriola would fare against Wales, England and Iran.

    We shouldn't be so interested in how they did against Grenada.
     
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  13. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree and I've said before that I'm less concerned about his playing in the actual WC. I wanted him playing about 500 minutes in the Ocho but these are different tournaments with different needs.

    I don't understand why many are incapable of saying that a player is both quality and someone they don't prefer to see. There's a tendency to call anyone they don't like crap or to say wildly counterfactual things about them.
     
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  14. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Yeah. There is no need to dump on a player like Roldan. To be at the margins of the national team is no small accomplishment. He's improved. But the overall level of talent of the team has improved more. It may seem paradoxical, but even as he has improved he has become a more marginal figure. It simply reflects the improving quality of the overall player pool, and in particular the pool of players in his position. The same phenomenon has sidelined guys like Green and Lletget to an even greater extent. Roldan, Green and Lletget are in the primes of their career. It says something about the rising quality of the player pool that they have basically been cut out of playing time.
     
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  15. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I take it as a huge positive that a barely 27 year old, high caliber athlete who just dominated the CCL is a fringe USMNT player. I might quibble over whether he should be 5th or 6th on the depth chart but the fact that he's got at least 4 wingers ahead of him is unprecedented.

    The Greens and LLetgets are sort of marginal physical talents so I'm less surprised to see them left behind.
     
  16. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd ask him after he retires. Almost every player in a new league - even MLS - say how much harder it is than they expected - PR. Some are telling the truth and many are saying to ingratiate themselves with fans of their new team. I mean if a great player came to MLS and said this is total crap I don't think that would be very smart. Ibrahimovich came the closest but I think he may do that everywhere if they don't kiss his a%$.
     
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  17. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Players mostly speak in cliches. The Busio comments caught my attention because he talked about a specific and logical difference in the leagues, when he said the average Seria A CM is very 2 footed in his observation, that tracks.
     
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  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Haha.... but the more technical players in other leagues don't play faster than the technically deficient MLS players?
     
  19. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sure they do move the ball faster on average but that doesn't address my request for some proof of the claim that MLS attackers enjoy some out sized time on the ball.
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I think you are lost cause on this until somebody creates an advanced statistic that they are patient enough to try convince you it measures exactly what you think it should.

    MLS has a long reputation of crap defending. Players just do a poor job of closing down the ball.
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But my eyeballs suggest that MLS teams are more likely to deploy the high press than some top European teams.

    Italian teams in particular seem to have lots of time on the ball and always have.

    And Busio is a midfielder so I'm not sure when this thread switched from players in general to attacking players.
     
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  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    #4447 bsky22, Jun 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2022
    One of your problems is that you are equating high pressing with time in the ball.

    You and @50/50 Ball need a new optometrist or maybe just be honest.

    This Italian comment is a joke isnt it? Let's look at Busio in KC vs Vemezia.





    Edit: I can't find any comments from Busio, but these were the ones I posted previously from Tessman. I am going to go with my eye test and Busio's teammmate instead of the MLS fanboys....

    “It is a defensive and tactical league. My positioning off the ball has definitely improved. I would definitely say on the ball as well. Decision making and speed of play has definitely increased and helped me get on the field more. My whole game's improved.”
     
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A player going from an inferior league like MLS to a better league like Serie A will notice an increase in quality.

    But I doubt that there is any statistical measure to suggest that an average MLS player playing in MLS has any more time on the ball than an average Serie A player in Serie A.

    Insults like "MLS fanboy" are only used when someone runs out of arguments.
     
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  24. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    That is not the insult I wanted to use. Of course there isnt a statistic. It is kind of ridiculous that somebody would think there is one. It is amazing how many obvious topics become controversial for MLS fans. They are a very special breed.

    Watch the two videos of Busio at KC and Venezia. Observe the number of defenders and distance when a player receives the bal and when he releases it or is tackled. There are many more examples when at KC of receiving ball and releasing without ever being under pressure. There are many more examples when at Venezia of him being having defenders closer and/or closing much faster. Also, note how much Busio's defending has improved.

    Italians are some of the best defenders in the world. It is so instinctive to them. Besides general pressure on the ball, they will defend in numbers and often swarm the player with the ball.
     
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that Busio would have less time in Serie A than MLS. Kevin de Bruyne would have all the time in the world in MLS.
     

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