MLS Flavors of the Week: 2022 edition

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Jan 1, 2022.

  1. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    There's scant else to watch on the Crew. Miguel Berry has fallen off a cliff and been benched.
     
    jaykoz3, Yowza, Thundering165 and 2 others repped this.
  2. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All I'm asking is if the old trope is true. I'm not saying it's definitely false but my BS sensors for "easy answer to complex issue" is activated.

    Busio did some interviews and his answer for the difference in league struck me as more logical, he said the players are better and more skilled. He specifically noted how seeing a guy onto his weak foot isn't as effective because most Sería A CMs don't seem to have one to him.
     
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  3. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Everything you mentioned was covered in the paper so I assume you did not read or understand it which unfortunate. As I said that work has been available, peer reviewed, and widely accepted and confirmed by additional follow on work.

    The concept of time on the ball has consistently been reiterated in every single survey, interview, and research study that I can remember over the last 20 years. If 9/10 player cite that as the primary difference as they move up league then until someone comes with a better theory that is what it is.

    Pray tell us; If it is not what the players say then what is the differences as you move up to higher leagues?
     
  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can imagine why a former MLS player has less time on the ball in a top 5 league.

    That doesn't mean that De Bruyne has less time on the ball than the ex-MLS player did in MLS.
     
  5. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Speed of play is the more common term but @50/50 Ball seems to prefer "time on the ball". Speed of play is required on both sides of the ball to be successful in a top 5 league.

    A top 5 league will likely require faster speed of play to be successful than in any lower tier league. KDB has world class speed of play.
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Brazil and Argentina have yet to win World Cups when using majority euro-based squads.

    Mihailovic is out with an ankle injury.

    Real Madrid are in for Slonina.
     
  7. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I both read it and understood it. But it's good you can be both condescending and incorrect at the same time.

    And do you really think there's a rigorous peer review of a paper like this? And please, do tell of all these follow on studies that prove the basic assertion of the paper.

    And it's pretty clear you are incapable of understanding the study since you couldn't even understand a shorter and more clear piece of writing: my post.

    Where I pretty clearly laid out that my commentary was around the assumptive causality in that paper, and was not particularly commenting on time on the ball, etc. I was also commenting on how that paper doesn't really contradict 50/50's point about time on the ball, but you keep acting like it does. I even made a point of not really agreeing with 50/50, but that paper doesn't address the point.

    Citing a paper that says that national teams perform a little better when they add players on elite teams does not exactly translate to more or less time on the ball. And to 50/50's point, if the NBA can use tracking software to highlight how far away a player is when a shot is taken or MLB can measure a fielder's first step reaction ... this is actually measurable. We could see the gaps; we don't need to rely on a very high level study.

    Personally, I think the very top leagues have a varying level of athletic advantage -- the EPL has an edge there versus even the top leagues -- but the skill and tactical advantages are probably more substantial than the athletic advantage. Defenses aren't as good in MLS for whatever reason as they are in the EPL or Serie A, of course.

    But as you go down the pyramid, I'm not exactly seeing the players of the Belgian league being swarmed without any time on the ball here. I suspect much of that gap has disappeared with TAM. And where there's an edge, it's much more in certain skill elements and depth of the whole team rather than the ability of someone to cover ground.
     
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  8. Thundering165

    Thundering165 Member+

    North Carolina FC
    United States
    May 1, 2017
    Raleigh
    #2008 Thundering165, May 30, 2022
    Last edited: May 30, 2022
    There’s something missing in the time space discussion, and it’s important.

    We see players move to MLS all the time and talk about how it is comparable to the top 5 leagues, harder than expected, etc etc. We see the inverse like when Pepi said he had to adjust to not having as much time on the ball.

    The missing piece is that individual players experience different levels of pressure. Pepi was one of the least pressed forwards in 2021 in MLS and it made sense. He couldn’t really hurt you with his passing so you force him away from the goal, let him receive the ball, and sit off.

    Meanwhile, the players who come to the league with a reputation are obviously going to get keyed on by defenses. I forget which rumored player it was that was thinking about an MLS debut but I saw someone comment how well they’d do with time and space on the ball. I thought “why on earth would any team give them time and space on the ball?” Every team would try to double them and press them to limit their impact.

    Daryl Dike was the opposite of Pepi. He was one of the most pressed strikers in the league. I can’t recall a single quote of his talking about having less time in the Championship than MLS, probably because for him the difference was relatively slight.

    A player that is good under high levels of pressure in MLS will probably adapt to the speed of play just fine.

    Edited to add: I think on aggregate MLS defending is worse and slightly less intense than most comparable European leagues. That’s on the whole, and zoomed out, and doesn’t reflect the whole truth
     
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  9. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honestly I’m more interested in how MLS compares to say Belgium which is clearly closer in level. I think we all know top 5 leagues are a level above, but is the second tier Euro leagues I’d like to hear more players talk about in comparison to MLS.
     
    Winoman repped this.
  10. Yowza

    Yowza Member+

    DC United
    United States
    Oct 23, 2019
    Arlington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All this talk about grading the MLS level makes me thirsty for a Seattle v. Real Madrid club world cup match. Madrid wouldn't take it seriously until they got punched in the mouth. But if that happens, we can get a decent idea of where the top of MLS stands against the best team in the world.
     
  11. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is like the awful take that you "need" a coach of your nationality to win a World Cup.

    Both are completely arbitrary and useless factoids.
     
    xbhaskarx repped this.
  12. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2012 MPNumber9, May 31, 2022
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
    How many NTs have won with a foreign coach? By what reasoning do you determine these facts are arbitrary or coincidental?

    It's not that any given factor is arbitrary; it's that a lot of factors matter, and not a single one in isolation explains the whole story.
     
  13. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Since this is the MLS thread, I'll compare them to "No team with a DP has ever won MLS cup" that brilliant soccer analysts used to repeat until LA won in 2011...
     
  14. Thundering165

    Thundering165 Member+

    North Carolina FC
    United States
    May 1, 2017
    Raleigh
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #2015 IndividualEleven, May 31, 2022
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
    A national team in contention for a WC typically employs a coach of its own nationality.
    Beckham was the first DP. LA won MLS Cup with him.
    Isn't there a forum for Bill James' nut-hugger wannabes?
    Not really. The two have absolutely nothing in common.
     
  16. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was responding to someone talking about how MLS allows so much"time on the ball."

    Now, this makes sense!
     
  17. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    The massive consolidation of top international talent in the top European leagues is a relatively recent trend, and the World Cup only happens every 4 years, so the sample size here during the period where you'd expect the WC winners to be made up of European-based talent is going to be relatively small -- probably somewhere between 5-7 tournaments. Just seems hard to draw many conclusions from that.

    That said, Brazil's 1994 and 2002 World Cup-winning sides, while roughly half-domestic/half-European based across the squad, relied heavily on European-based talent among players who received major minutes. In both World Cup finals, their starting lineup consisted of 8 European-based players, and 3-domestic based players. And the Argentina side that reached the 2014 WC final, and easily could have won it that day with some better finishing, was almost exclusively Euro-based.
     
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  18. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Correct, their best players played in Europe. However, they many have spent more time playing domestically in Brazil before moving overseas than players do these days, which may have contributed to their playing style. Who knows?
     
  19. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Sample sample size is the nature of championships, even more so contests like the Olympics or the World Cup. But that size is over 20-plus years, encompassing multiple generations of players.
     
  20. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Beckham wasn’t the first DP - he was just the first one labeled as a DP. Valderama, Ethchevery etc the first few years got big contracts to play in MLS.

    Where did the narrative that Pepi can’t pass come from? He’s not going he a huge assist guy but his passing always seemed decent for a forward getting banged on.

    The Brazil, Argentina not winning with Euro players and the countries only winning with coaches from their country may be a fact but not necessarily something that etched in stone. In the last it seems countries only used coaches from their country. Maybe Brazil needs a Euro coach now since all their players play there.
     
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  21. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you had read the paper you would know that the excerpts of interviews of USMNT players who played in top leagues specifically addresses the "time and space" issue that was brought up by @50/50 Ball
     
  22. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS does allow more time and space on the ball than the top 5 leagues. So does LigaMX for that matter. Why get offended by that statement?

    Time on the ball is not just a factor of direct pressure but also how much your teammates are contested which reduces your window to make successful attacking plays. In top leagues the window to make a play is small and closes very quickly. The players are more tactically aware, react faster, and compensate for mistakes quicker.

    That is speed of play.
     
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  23. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    I think time on the ball also can be looked at from a different perspective. The best players usually are able to buy themselves more time on the ball. They have skills that let them do this. I'll just mention that while someone like Roldan is a good player who has improved, it seems to me that his main shortcoming is he doesn't have the little feints that buys a player more time on the ball.

    In the best leagues the defensive pressure works to reduce time on the ball. But very skillful players know how to buy themselves that extra fraction of a second to allow their teammates to make their run. Real Madrid plays relatively slowly because they have so many players who can do this.
     
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  24. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    MLS is a summer league. The potential for pressuring is going to be less.
     
  25. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I urge teams to try to gegenpress against FC Dallas in Frisco in the middle of the summer. Please do it.

    We say it all the time. You have more time and space on the ball in MLS. You also have to be a pretty damn good athlete to make it in MLS. Cuz the guys around you may not be as technically good as those in Spain, but they're frickin' athletes. Go ahead. Try to keep up with Jonathan Lewis bombing up and down the wings in the middle of summer. Just try.

    There's quite an adjustment period for Europe based players coming to MLS. We also have to provide players making the opposite move some adjustment time (see Pepi, Bassett, etc.).
     
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