Spaghetti Weston: McKennie at Juventus

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by hokeydokey, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. Higher Learning

    Jul 1, 2009
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. KenC

    KenC Member+

    Jun 11, 2003
    He likely signed a Schalke contract extension right before his loan to Juve, which raised his salary to where it currently is. Then when Juve took up the buy option after his first loan season, the length of the remaining years meant they didn't need to renegotiate an extension yet.

    Okay, went to look at salarysport's contract info, it appears Wes signed an extension that raised his salary from £468,000 to £1,924,000 before the 2020 season, when he went on loan. The contract ends summer of 2024, so Juve have time.
     
  3. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    When teams purchase players, don't they always have to negotiate with the player regarding their salary as well?

    The agent should have leveraged Juve interest to buy to get a new salary.
     
  4. ChicagoVT

    ChicagoVT Member

    United States
    Jun 26, 2019
    Do you know if it comes out in just Italy or in the US too? There is so little info about this season? It also seems like it has taken them forever to release this.
     
  5. usnroach

    usnroach Member+

    Jul 5, 2009
    SoCal
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am almost positive it will release in the U.S. on Amazon Prime Video November 25th.
     
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  6. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Damn talk about underpaid. Then again he joined from FC Dallas to Schalke's Academy right so those lower wages make some sense.
     
  7. felloveranddidanadu

    Plymouth Argyle FC
    Dec 12, 2009
    Club:
    San Jose Frogs
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Will it be fly on the wall Man City version or PR puff piece Tottenham version? We'll have to wait and see
     
  8. KenC

    KenC Member+

    Jun 11, 2003
    Well, sometimes, a player transfers when there's little time left on their existing contract. Of course, those transfers are going to include a contract extension and a salary adjustment. And then sometimes, a player does a sign and trade, like the NBA, where a player signs an extension, just before getting traded. Wes did that, he signed an extension, and got a bigger salary, and then was "traded" via a loan with purchase option.

    These sign and trade type of contracts, the player's agent fully understands that the player will get traded/transferred afterward. The whole point is so that the selling team has an asset to sell, ie the 4 or 5 yrs remaining on the new contract. The salary negotiation already happened before the trade/transfer. If Wes' salary were higher, the transfer fee to Schalke might be lower, as buying teams consider the total cost of an acquisition. It's a negotiation. Plus, if the player wants to be attractive to a favored acquiring team, they know that a lower total cost is more attractive, so they might lower their salary demands in order to go to a favored club. And, higher, if they don't care where they go as long as they get paid. So, when the agent negotiates Wes' contract with Schalke, he has an idea of Wes' transfer value to Schalke, and Wes' salary demands, when added up, can make the tiny bit of difference of whether Wes can go to a favored club or not. It's not rocket science, but it still requires some knowledge of the market.

    When a player transfers on a free, since he's got zero years remaining, a club obviously has to negotiate a new salary, and often will give the player a higher salary, since there was no transfer fee. Aaron Ramsey for example. He's on a high salary that no one seems to agree with, but that's because he transferred for free.

    Just look at Wes' total cost to Juve. If the current contract is 4yrs since he started for them, then his total cost could be $40M, since his loan+transfer fee+bonuses add up to $30M, and 4yrs of his salary is $10M. Look at Ramsey, his salary is reportedly $12.5M a year for 4yrs, but no transfer fee, so his total cost is $50M, not a huge amount more than Wes, and considering his Arsenal pedigree, and entering his prime years at 28, Juve thought it was a manageable deal. Obviously, Ramsey's injury history bit them.
     
  9. Shaster

    Shaster Member+

    Apr 13, 1999
    El Cerrito, CA, USA
    McKennie > Morata > Chiesa
     
  10. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    But you failed to include the value of the asset. McKennie can sell the rights to McKennie before his deal is up and make a bundle. They can't do that with Ramsey.

    So it is false math to say Ramsey ($50m), Wes ($48m).

    If you subtract what they can sell Wes for (say $30 million, although I think that figure is much higher)
    the equation is more like Ramsey ($45m)* and Wes ($18m)**, which weakens your argument significantly


    * assuming he can be sold for $5m
    ** 48m-30m= 18m
     
  11. usnroach

    usnroach Member+

    Jul 5, 2009
    SoCal
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is all hindsight. Wes who had not proven anything up until that point in his career was a gamble. Wes could have s**t the bed and the 40m investment could be a loss.
     
  12. KenC

    KenC Member+

    Jun 11, 2003
    Honestly, I didn't fail to include anything. I just simplified it by assuming the contract in full. At contract end, the team owns nothing. We know that as a Bosman, or a player being "out of contract". In the US, that's a free agent.

    What you are doing is trying to value a player, mid-contract. Far more complicated and based upon a player's everchanging value dependent upon current playing level and remaining contract years.

    Even if you were to try to do the more complicated valuation, mid-contract, you're still not doing the comparison correctly. Even if I use your figs, which are debatable, you have to amortize the total cost over the years. Ramsey would be $45M over 2.5yrs, or $18M a year. Wes would be $18M over 1.5yrs, or $12M a year. You compare the annual cost, not the total cost, when the years of the contracts are not the same. So, Ramsey's $18M/season to Wes' $12M/season, using your figs. Again, not a huge difference when you consider they were getting Ramsey at what they considered would be his prime years, after a track record of playing for Arsenal. Wes was coming with less of a track record.
     
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  13. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    Valuing the contract at mid-point is the entire point of the exercise, since that was the inflection point in which McKinnie's advisers could have/should have looked for a raise (earlier this year) and where Wes' value had increased significantly.

    Juventus had an option to buy last season- they did not buy him from Schalke upfront. In the first (more than) half season, McKinnie proved he belongs at this level and then already had a worth beyond the price of what Juventus offered for him to Schalke (and to him in salary).

    Importantly, Juve then owed an asset that they can resell for ten of millions
    of dollars.

    Ramsey came on a free but he was nearly 7 years older than Wes (nearing 29).
    That's a huge difference (to the negative side) for Ramsey. So Ramsey's sell on value was always going to be low (much lower than Wes's) due to age...but you add performance, and their asset values are no where near the same ballpark.

    Even using your figures of Ramsey ($18m) and McKinnie ($12m)..... I don't consider that difference insignificant at all (as you claim), even if that is not the argument I would propose
     
  14. KenC

    KenC Member+

    Jun 11, 2003
    And, as I already stated, mid-contract valuations make the whole comparison more complex. Wes' form and subsequent value have fluctuated quite a lot in the past year.

    The $18M and $12M are not my figures. Those are based upon your valuations, above, but amortized, since you can't compare apples to oranges.

    Nowhere did I say the difference between $18M and $12 was "insignificant". I did not "claim" that. If you're just going to make up things, it'd be better not to continue this any further.

    Just remember, the comparison people were making in this thread was between Wes' reported salary of $2.5M and Ramsey's reported salary of $12.5M, a 400% difference. That's a huge difference and people were rightly outraged at the difference. The problem was, it wasn't a fair comparison if you don't factor in transfer fees, which brings the costs to the club, much closer, a 50% difference, even using your valuations.
     
  15. Ironbound

    Ironbound Member+

    Jul 1, 2009
  16. usnroach

    usnroach Member+

    Jul 5, 2009
    SoCal
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  17. russ

    russ Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Canton,NY
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  18. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
  19. madvillain

    madvillain Member+

    Aug 28, 2011
    Club:
    Brooklyn Knights
    I can see how he got a bit of a big head. Pulisic might be a bigger name but playing for Juventus is an island onto itself and the fame of even being a fringe regular is intense. I believe Weston had said a few times how often he gets recognized out and about on his business around town. A young guy can get a big time attitude with that attention so maybe it was a blessing in disguise to have the early season troubles and the USMNT sending home -- humbled him.
     
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  20. usnroach

    usnroach Member+

    Jul 5, 2009
    SoCal
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey, what is wrong with his drab of an American girlfriend? lol

    He could end up pulling an Tyler Adams and locking it down early...
     
  21. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    I don't see his public exposure as a negative at all necessarily. Some athletes are 'people people' and they thrive off that extra energy and adulation. Pulisic seems by all accounts a very different personality, insular and (almost) nerdy.

    There is no one script for these athletes- they are all individuals- and best we leave the sleeping dogs of last September alone- lest the thread blow up again on picking sides....
     
  22. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    Come to Brazil, and you will change your mind ;)
     
  23. CyphaPSU

    CyphaPSU Member+

    Mar 16, 2003
    Not Far
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not sure about his level of interest.
    [​IMG]
     
  24. usnroach

    usnroach Member+

    Jul 5, 2009
    SoCal
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Won't fight you there. But last I checked, Brazil is in South America not Europe... ;)
     
  25. golazo68

    golazo68 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 21, 2004
    Brazil
    My friend...you are not nearly creative enough! Plenty of Brazilian models
    living in Milan/Paris/London.....Cake/Eat/2.....Wes will have no problems if he seeks that route....back at ya!
     
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