US vs. Mexico 11/12/2021: the pre-pre-pre-match thread

Yeah, I don't get what the discussion is.
He finished runner-up in MLS defender of the year voting last season (behind Zimmerman). Made a good move to Belgium to test himself further.

Players have ups and down in form and their developmental arcs. Miles Robinson had a subpar 2020, and is now having a really good 2021.

Worth pointing out that McKenzie is one of the few CBs that we talk about here who are left footed. John Brooks is the other. I think that does come into play for our depth chart considerations. When Brooks is out, McKenzie is moved up one rung of the ladder in terms of guys who play predominantly LCB in club soccer. [Ream is other left footer.]

Richards, Miazga, Robinson, Zimmerman, Sands, Carter-Vickers, and Palmer-Brown are all right footed.

 

Over in this thread (USMNT Player Pool for the 2022 Cycle) I have been tracking all the call ups since GB took over. @Eleven Bravo and I have been doing this for a few cycles now.

GB has called in 124 players this cycle. Here is the spread sheet I use to keep track (I still need to add in the last 2 games).

 

That's exactly as I'd list them currently, too . And I agree on McKenzie at the moment.

 

K, but not surprising right? His current poor form is poor form, for club and country, period.

In 2019 he was basically out for much of that spring with a litany of injuries and an emergency surgery which is why he wasn't played except for the last group stage match and then he was played at RB (if memory serves) which was kind of insane, he wasn't even played at CB. My understanding at that point was he was a CB, period, so it was weird to begin with. Not surprising he wouldn't show well when he was played out of position, and when he wasn't really match fit either.

At this point, he's pure speculation to me, a guy whose a prospect with a perceived high ceiling due to the technical bits of his game, but notorious for horrible brain farts in critical moments. Let him iron out those issues with Genk in his club career, I don't want him working through his issues at CB with the national team, already have seen enough with the face plants against Mexico (I get the take that he played well, other than the two horror show moments, but playing defense is kind of the opposite polarity of playing an attacking positions: you can play like --- all day as an attacker, but if you contribute a goal at some point, in a game with few chances and few goals, that one play matters 100x as much as all the rest of the crappy play. On defense, however, if you have 118 great minutes, but two flat out catastrophes that lead to a goal and what should have been a 2nd goal, the other 118 minutes just don't matter, you own a -2 in the goal department, and ergo, you sucked. Not fair, but it's the reality of those positions).

Anyway, with him, I didnt watch him enough to get why people love him other than two footedness, he just seems like a real solid player with some skills whose messy and doesn't have a cleaned up game. He's only 22, so maybe he can clean it up over the next year. Maybe. Certainly over his career he should. But I don't see him as an option in qualifying, and certainly for the WC team unless he cleans it up like crazy.

Bello I get more. Has some pace, will likely develop into a nice attacking weapon on the left, has a lot of upside, but like McKenzie, he makes a ton of mistakes that are catastrophes, and he's significantly more raw, apparently he was repeatedly out of position against Panama which was part of the reason Musah kept struggling to build up attacks, Bello seemed to be hedging the attack towards defending, and then hedging the defending towards attack so he was consistently not doing either particularly well. He's 19, he's not ready for this level yet, no shame in that. He's very young, needs more reps, we've got Jedi, Vines, Scally, and Dest if need be for LB. We don't need Bello either. Let him figure it out with his club for 2021-2022, maybe check back in next summer.

That's how I see it. Neither of these guys is ready yet, I think it's obvious in both cases, and I'd like Turner as my 1 and Steffen as my 2, to work with a firm CB 5 and FB 4-5, so they are more comfortable with communicating and intuiting what one another will do.

For me, barring injuries, make it a 5 of Robinson, Richards, Zimmerman, JAB, and Miazga, and a FB collection of Dest, Scally, Jedi, Vines, with Cannon/Yedlin/Moore as "Break in case of emergency" options. I know it won't play out that way, but I'd definitely try to make it 5 FB's, and 5 CB's, and leave it as those groups so they can get some cohesion. It's a concern. I think the sketchy play against Panama by Turner was at least in part a product of working with a weird back four and weird CM that he simply wasn't familiar with. Get the core the reps, add Scally because he's flat out better than all the non-Dest RB's, and all the non-Jedi LB's (and maybe Jedi too), and use these next two windows to cement their comfort levels.

 

The problem is that he hasn't played well for the USMNT since Nations League, and he hasn't played consistently well for Club either. He's been a mess.

I don't think he sucks, I just think he's not playing well, and since we have guys who are, I'd prefer he sit down and make way for the guys that are playing well, or the guys that probably will bounce back (JAB at home anyway, wouldn't use him for the roadies to Mexico or Costa Rica).

I get what you're saying in terms of his feet, but it doesn't trump the key factor which is "not being a catastrophe in the back multiple times a game, every single appearance". That shouldn't be a high hurdle to climb, but it's been one for McKenzie. It's just been a bad year for whatever reason, and as a result, I'd rather keep it to Robinson, Richards, Zimmerman, JAB, and the much improved, if limited, Miazga.

 

Believe that McKenzie is actually right footed, but he's just really good with his left.

 

LOL, we finally agree on something. That being said, it's not exactly how I list them, as I think, ideally, Id want Berhalter to take the 5, and figure out the combinations that work best, and the ones that work least, and just roll the better combo's. I'll let other people decide how that best works, but I imagine some combo of pairings where at least 1 guy in the pairing can cover 1 of:
1.Aerial skills
2.Mobility questions
3. Passing
4. Left and right footedness
5. Size dominance
6. Greater than the sum of their parts (as in, which pairings are either as good as they are as talents, or even better, and which pairings actually bring out the worst in one another's strengths and liabilities).

and other things I can't think of while grading papers.

 

Oh, well then I agree with you on more things than you agree with me.

Regarding pairings among the list of 5 CBs that we agree on (currently), I think the best pairings always include M. Robinson. He's the number 1 on the list for me because he works, in practice (as in, has been tried in a game), well with all of the others (except for Miazga--I don't think they've paired before--but I don't see why it wouldn't work well given Robinson has worked well with all the others and all their different attributes). Robinson seems equally capable of being the "primary" CB or the "auxiliary". Change his role, and he does just as well.

If Robinson were to get injured (oooooh, now I said it), then things get much more complicated. On current form, Zimmerman/Richards is the "2nd" choice. After that it's kind of a crapshoot, but probably Brooks/Richards. If you get to the point of needing the 5th CB to play in a window then the matter of who is left available is the information required to make any opinion.

 

I get why other posters favor him. He projects to have all the tools to be a very solid defender. He’s athletic. He seems to be a good dude (from what I know of). It’s not like he’s dumb. But it’s as though he can’t keep it all together for 90 minutes. And he’s prone to make some major errors that other defenders at this level rarely make. And yes, I know all defenders make mistakes. But McKenzie consistently makes the errant passes and misses his mark on big plays. It’s something he could grow out of, but I don’t trust it for this cycle. He needs to rectify this issue at the club level... then he needs to be brought back in.

Of note, I think for me, I like consistency and reliability from my center backs and goalkeepers. Other positions can take on some risks, but I believe the reason that I don’t prefer McKenzie is that he’s a high risk, high reward pick, and I just don’t like the high risk part of his game.

 

I agree with you, but I don’t really put Miazga (very recent club form aside) or Brooks above him. I’m hopeful that he can improve over the next 2-3 years, but I’m not confident in his ability to contribute well in a World Cup run.

 

McKenzie is actually right footed but you wouldn’t know it from how well he uses his left. He even hits long flighted passes well with his left. I’m sure his ability to play either side using the proper foot is what makes him attractive to GB. But, he needs to play more with his club.

 

I didn't realize you were still doing this. I followed the threads the last few cycles.

I just glanced at the spreadsheet and think the numbers are off for Baird. It only has him playing 25 mins in 1 cap and we all know we wasted much more time on that guy.

 

I think the USA is in real danger of not getting any points from this game. Injuries are piling up. Gregg is going to have some tough decisions to make. In my mind, you don't call up any players who are just coming off an injury. Why? Because they probably don't have the fitness, definitely won't have sharpness, and are candidates to get re-injured, 2 or 3 games back minimum, or it is too soon, IMO. The USA must not lose this match. Berhalter will need to play a bit closed. Chucky Lozano and Raul Jimenez are in good form, however, Pulido is still out from knee surgery, and Lainez is just coming off injury. Mexico has several other weapons, of course. Jorge Sanchez from America is a very talented player, for example.

As with all Mexico games, controlling the midfield is the key to victory. I think the USA will have a true advantage on crosses and set plays, but they have to be careful about getting caught too forward and penalized by speedy Lozano and Jimenez, especially the former. Canada punished Mexico with a quick passing sequence on October 7th, and I can see the USA doing that, too.

 

Yeah, it’s not perfect. I make mistakes here and there.

 

Dest is tied for 3rd in assists in La Liga.

 

I would rather see the U.S. come out and play. There ARE some injuries but as of now we will still have available the likes of Dest, Weah, Aaronson, Musah, McKennie, Pepi and hopefully Pulisic. Yes you have to guard against the break, but that doesn't mean you sacrifice your home field advantage by playing for a stalemate. Even if we were to lose, there are still half the matches in the competition remaining to be played.

The reward is worth going for.

 

Yeah, I think it'll be very interesting to see how Berhalter approaches this game. Both of the US wins over the summer saw us taking the traditional US approach--concede possession and try to hit them counters, set pieces, and the occasional bit of high pressing. But we didn't have the MMA midfield available for either of those games, and this time we hopefully will. Maybe that could be the difference that allows us to play on the front foot more without exposing ourselves at the back, but I'm not sure.

 

Unlike all that nonsense about not calling players #30-35 into the previous window, playing Pulisic and Reyna in these games would be malpractice.

 

Yeah I mean he's not on the two- deep right now as he has been surpassed. Obviously I wouldn't give up on him, and I wouldn't mind him getting called in this cycle but I wouldn't play him in meaningful minutes right now.

 

Reyna is not getting called in. Pulisic could be cleared any day. I could see him called in if his is cleared in the next couple of days.

 

If he is playing, both him and Gregg are idiots.

 

miazga has shined in leagues mckenzie is struggling to even make an appearance in...idk how given the recent form and performances of both payers that some would call in mckenzie above miazga for this next window.

in th future it could change...but thats not how callups shoud be determined....its not who is going to be good 5 years from now that should be decide who gets called up for wcq...unless its clearly the next messi...which, obviously, mckenzie isnt

 

He could come off the bench

 

I agree with you that Miazga should be called in over him during the next window, but Miazga has failed to lock down a spot despite numerous opportunities. It made sense to give McKenzie more of a look to see if he could provide a boost. He couldn’t, but it was the right call. Just like going back to Miazga is the right call now given his club form and McKenzie’s inability to shine for the national team this year.

 

Does Gregg rate Miazga? I could see him bringing Ream back over Miazga.