The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So looks like this thread has turned into all Newcastle all the time. Here's the thing it is possible to have different thoughts at the same time.

    On one hand I can understand a die hard long suffering Newcastle fan being excited. It's a pretty simple equation. They get joy from Newcastle winning. The more money Newcastle have the more likely they are to win, and the new owners have a lot of money, so it is likely that these new owners will bring joy. And in 2021 I have difficulty criticizing someone for finding joy. Especially when I'm not sure I would give up my own allegiance in the same circumstances. I watched Liverpool in the Club World Cup in Qatar and plan on watching the W.C. there. I follow Formula 1 which is the poster child for giving despots a PR platform in return for cash. But on the other hand I think that fans should have some self awareness and maybe not celebrate it these new owners. Just because they own your football club doesn't mean you have to join their cult of personality. As fans I do think you can take the good; trophies, amazing footballers, while also calling out the bad. And I don't think that's being a hypocrite.
     
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  2. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #32327 M, Oct 11, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
    And never threatening the top two. Hence the relative meaningless of claiming there was a "big four", especially given Liverpool's crazy owners for a chunk of that period.
     
  3. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Saudi Arabia vs. Mike Ashley begs the question, who is the most evil?
     
  5. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
  6. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
  7. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It wouldn't actually surprise me if there was more joy from being free of Mike Ashley than for the new owners. When the Glazers leave Manchester United, there will be similar scenes, and he was obviously even worse than them.

    Mind you, I would quite like some billionaire to bankroll a club like Whitby Town up the leagues, just for a laugh.
     
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  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    See Salford City (though they are 17th in L2).
     
  9. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #32334 Elninho, Oct 12, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
    Hoffenheim?

    Dietmar Hopp started investing in 1990 when they were in the 8th tier, and started pouring large amounts of money into the club in 2000 when they were in the 5th tier.
     
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  10. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I posted an article from The Guardian a few weeks ago about Abdallah Lemsagam's ownership of the club. The comment by the supporters' organization that "A procession of bad decisions have led us to where we are now and the situation has become pretty dire." is a massive understatement. I feel for the fans, but I can't see why they are entitled to a place in the Football League when there are so much better run clubs outside it. On that subject I see there is a huge difference in fortunes between last year's two relegated sides: Grimsby are top of the National League whilst Southend look like they could be relegated again.
     
  12. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From the article:

    I was told that every game mattered in a pro/rel system. Sporting merit and all that. Is it instead a financial merit all this time?
     
  13. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Your comment is a complete non-sequiter from what you quoted. Additionally, if they go down it will absolutely be sporting merit due to their failing to perform on the field of play. It will also be sporting merit that what you quoted, namely "being a former Premier League team in the non-league will count for absolutely nothing". They don't get "bonus points" in the National League for having played in the Premier League 30 years ago. This isn't a US closed league where failure is rewarded.
     
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  14. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree, it's completely related.

    Gee, wonder if occurring debt and falling into financial administration has something to do with that.

    Nope.

    When has a MLS team with a losing season ever been "rewarded"? Their coaches, sporting directors, players get fired during and after the season as part of the consequences of not performing well enough. It's why eight coaches were sacked in MLS this season and a couple of sporting directors.
     
  15. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    "A procession of bad decisions have led us to where we are now and the situation has become pretty dire."

    I guess you missed that bit. Really, I suggest you go away and do some reading on the way the owner of Oldham has conducted himself during the course of his ownership.

    Yep.

    US closed leagues award better draft choices to failing teams. I do agree that it's less pronounced in MLS than other US closed leagues such as the NH\FL.
     
  16. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh no! Anyway...

    Yes. He conducted himself poorly. Reminds me of some NASL teams.

    Nope.

    Actually a risk, you can get a player like Trevor Lawrence that would, potentially, benefit the Jaguars or a draft bust like Blake Bortles. The "award" is more like a 50/50 chance of heads or tails it would be an actual benefit to the team.
     
  17. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The actions of professional GM's begs to differ. In both Baseball and the NBA you have seen tanking used successfully and becoming more common. Starting to creep into the NFL as well.

    Now for me this has no bearing on pro/rel. MLS could adopt pro/rel with or without the draft wouldn't matter.

    But as an aside I would actually like to see the NBA and NFL change the ordering of the draft. For a while if you can't make the playoffs you're better off being terrible giving you the chance at a truly transformative player. To quote Amos from the Expanse "You need to either rise to the top or sink to the bottom everything else is just the churn".

    For the NBA they've been talking about bringing in a Soccer style "Cup Competition" for a number of years. Maybe reward the winner with the #1 pick in addition to giving the players a big pot of money to split (the current recommendation). For the NFL I would flip the draft order. The best team that missed the playoffs gets the first pick and then on down. With the Playoff teams still drafting last.

    Just my opinion because why it isn't part of pro/rel it bugs me anytime a game is played where there is more reward for a loss vs. a win, even if it's unintentional.
     
  18. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    And teams that are poorly managed tend to perform poorly on the field of play...

    Yep. It is absolutely sporting merit for the National League not to reward a relegated Oldham for having played in the Premier League 30 years ago.

    When US closed leagues scrap the draft or, at least, make it entirely random, you'll have a point.
     
  19. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    #32344 CoachP365, Oct 13, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
    What you're missing is - in MLS, the "operated organization" has no consequences for nonmeritorious sporting. Sporting Directors, Coaches can get sacked, players wear a different pinnie the next year while getting their check from the same company - but the owner operator never has to deal with "hmm, lower league, will we still sell 10K tickets, 4K pies, 12K pints every week"

    There's disconnect of the consequences.

    Sure, nobody goes to see the Fire, but does that keep them from being able to sign late 20s conmebolistas using tam/gam/whatever other garberbux they introduce to make sure no lower division teams create USOC scares? They still have their DP spots. They still get their cut of the next round of expansion fees.
     
  20. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What does this even mean? Not a well thought out sentence and I think I lost some brain cells reading it.

    This makes no sense.

    What's a USOC scare? There is a quality player gap between MLS teams and lower division teams. USL teams just isn't up to par. The Fire won USOC four times.

    That's not how the expansion fees work, Chris.
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS owners don't get a cut of expansion fees, expansion fees are based on the value of the league. Owners aren't making significant operating profit, they cash out when they sell their shareholding.
     
  22. Doogh

    Doogh Member+

    Oct 5, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You think someone would look back at 1,294 pages because I already mentioned this twice. Expansion fees aren't a cash windfall to other 27 or so MLS teams, they are dilution of shares.

    Sadly, the uninformed ones are the most likely to get easily duped into misinformation.
     
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  23. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would like to point out that "Better Draft Picks" hasn't helped the Buffalo Sabres in the past 10+ years......
     
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  24. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    And yet the NHL draft isn't ordered randomly. Why is that?
     
  25. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually the top picks are random now.....

    Also, the Sabres have the lowest season ticket renewal percentage in the NHL. They now regularly do not sell out home games, which they used to have a wait list for season tickets, and single game tickets were difficult to come by.

    So, yes, there ARE consequences in "closed US Leagues."
     
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