2021-22 England Referee Assignments and Discussion [EPL/EFL/Cups+][R's]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by code1390, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Four new referees in SG1: Jarred Gillett, Michael Salisbury, Tony Harrington and John Brooks. Wade Smith is added as a SG1 AR.

    Community Shield - August 7
    RR: Paul Tierney
    VAR: Darren England
     
  2. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I guess this is as good a place as any for this:

    https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...r-league-players-buying-a-penalty-next-season

    I'd much prefer overlapping lines to mean the call on the field stands, but they didn't ask me.

    I'm not so much convinced the three criteria is going to do anything--if the second factor is the consequence of the contact, doesn't that encourage players to go down? It will be interesting to see how this really plays out in real life instead of on paper.
     
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  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Prediction: Every pk decision will still be super controversial.
     
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  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So they actually want referees to consider whether or not there's actually a foul when calling and/or overturning penalties? What a goddamn concept.


    Their offside interpretation should thoroughly annoy the IFAB because they're basically saying that "too close to call on video" is now definitive evidence that a player is not in an offside position, and hoo boy. The Dutch system, where overlapping lines mean that the call on the field always stands, is much more in line with the entire concept of video review.
     
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  5. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Inconceivable!!!
     
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  6. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Curious how they'd now view an attacker positioning their leg in front of a defender making an attempt to clear the ball or any other attempts to get a contrived VAR awarded penalty would be viewed.
     
  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's a pretty long tweet thread from Dale Johnson showing some of the details on how the thicker lines will work in the premier League.

     
  8. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Another summary of the changes ...

    "Despite mixed reviews last season, VAR in the Premier League returns for series three, with important changes and clarifications, some in response to the great success of the swift and unobtrusive approach to reviews at the Euros.

    Chiefly, there will be a higher threshold for interventions with the aim of maintaining the flow of the game and acknowledging the physical nature of the sport. VAR officials will overlook trivial misdemeanours and focus on the major decisions that influence the match outcome.

    On marginal offside decisions the Premier League is moving to more of a European model. The attacking and defensive player will still be picked out by a single pixel, but thicker lines will then be drawn and if they intersect the player is now considered onside, allowing the attacker some leeway.

    It is reckoned 20 goals ruled out last season would stand in 2021/22. Broadcasters will no longer have the build-up feed showing how a decision is reached at Stockley Park, just the final graphic.

    This higher threshold will also affect penalty decisions at ground level, supported by a more sympathetic approach to what the VAR considers a ‘clear and obvious error’ by the referee.

    Accidental handball has been clarified in two key areas. Where a hand or arm struck by the ball is in a position you would expect and has not moved away from the body, the player is less likely to be penalised. Inadvertent handling in the build up to a goal will only be penalised if it is scored immediately after or directly from the contact.

    There will also be fewer instances of assistants delaying an offside call until a shot has been attempted or ball goes out of play. Now, when entirely confident a player is offside, and/or in a wide position, not threatening the goal, the official will immediately raise a flag."

    https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2...source=tw&utm_medium=orgsoc&utm_campaign=none
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a really good thread. The only tweet I take issue with is this one:



    The "no league can copy this" opinion is just wrong. Most of MLS's AVARs are all offside specialists, so a league with 27 clubs comes close to pulling it off. Given England uses a centralized VOR, they could probably pull this off with 6-7 dedicated offside AVARs per week. And, well, you can use retired ARs for this job. It's actually not very hard to do at all and I am surprised the big leagues haven't pursued this.
     
  10. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    In other words, we'll do what we were supposed to be doing . . .
    In other words, all we care about is goals, so we are going to reverse accurate OS calls when they are really close.
    We think less transparency will reduce contoversy
    Again, what it was always supposed to be
    So we're going to take credit for IFAB's changes to the LOTG. (I'd also quibble about whether biggering is "accidental"--I don't think it is as the unnatural element is really about the player doing something to create the opportunity for the handball.)
    Again, in other words, we're going to start doing what we were supposed to be doing all along.
     
  11. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Steinhaus-Webb leaves the DFB and Germany and moves to England as "Women’s Select Group Director in PGMOL-Team", that is, the referee's chief for the Women’s Super League and the Women’s Championship (the two highest women's leagues). She said that the nationality of Howard Webb did not play an important role in this decision. The Olympics Final between Canada and Sweden as VAR was the last assignment of her career.

    http://sportbild.bild.de/fussball/2...ebb-wechselt-nach-england-77330412.sport.html
     
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  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In this particular case, I don't think they are wrong. Showing the actual drawing of the lines would be akin to broadcasting the internal monologue of a referee as he tries to arrive at the right decision to a tough call. There's no reason show the sausage being made. The fact that they showed the drawing of the lines in the first place was pretty silly.
     
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Fair enough--if this is just about the line drawing part of the process. I interpreted it as more broad than that.
     
  14. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Yeah...and the nationality of Boris Johnson played no role in him being the Prime Minister of the UK.

    If that's really the case than I have a beach house for you to buy in Montana.

    The fact that she has to say her relationship with Webb did not play a role in her getting the job tells me that it did.
     
  15. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Or in other words, it is an acknowledgement that "accurate" VAR OS calls aren't really that accurate given the limits of technology on a single still image that never can accurately pick out the exact moment the ball has been played compounded with the notion that placing these sorts of decisions under a VAR review bastardized the "mistake of fact" concept into something VAR never was intended to cover.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean, maybe. But I also might want to look at your property in Montana.

    If it was pure nepotism, why isn't she coming to run the NWSL referee program? I'd also point out she's probably the top and most recognizable female referee in the world who speaks English well that is not named Kari Seitz that would be a perfect fit for this role.

    I guess you have to ask who would get this job, if not her? I'm sure a connection to Webb didn't hurt. But if they were never married and this post opened up, I find it pretty difficult to say she wouldn't be the #1 obvious choice.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except that we are talking about scenarios where the flag goes up, the lines show that the call was (or, if you want, was most likely) correct and... a goal gets awarded.

    I get why they are doing it. I also have very little doubt that no one will complain beyond this thread and a few other niche forums. But they are turning the concept of VAR on its head because in this situation they are using VAR to overturn correct calls (or, at the very least, calls that are not "clearly wrong.").
     
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  18. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Because the NWSL can't afford her. They don't have enough money to fly in both ARs and a 4th for most games, yet they will have the money to bring in a foreign national to oversee their referee program.

    She's obviously qualified and if she wasn't married to Webb, I wouldn't say a word.

    England is such a notoriously insular football culture. Whenever there is even a thought of hiring a foreign national team coach, the whole country goes through an existential crisis.

    Whenever there appears to be a "crisis" in English refereeing (a couple of referees have consecutive bad games filled with controversial decisions) the ex EPL referees and media start asking if foreign help should be brought in to improve the refereeing.

    Remember when Arsenal and Man United had their wars around 2004? There was talk of "should we bring in Collina to referee these unrefereeable games?" from the press.

    Every year there is calls for Mike Reilly's head from disgruntled ex-EPL referees after a couple of subpar performances. Every year those same referees talk about a drop in "standard." Yet, Reilly seems to have greater job security than the Pope or a Supreme Court Judge.

    It's not exactly apples to apples, but suddenly they hire a foreigner to head the female referee program? Again, she's more than qualified for the position, but I just have a hard time believing England would go for outside help if it wasn't for her relationship to Webb.

    Now, if they go ahead and hire Kevin Stott or Kuipers to head the VAR program, then I'll throw my hands up and say England football culture has changed

    I think in the long run her appointment is positive.
     
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  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks to @Mikael_Referee , a clip of the penalty from the Community Shield:

    https://streamable.com/ikh0b3

    I think it's the right call, though I would say it's probably not the expected call yet at this level since it's so rarely given like this. Misconduct is also an interesting philosophical question. Narrowly, without any application of advantage, it's DOGSO (yellow). But the wait-and-see approach means the OGSO wasn't really denied, it just passed to another player. Then again, since the penalty is given you're not actually applying advantage, so could/should a card still be issued?

    EDIT to add that the tackle itself was probably reckless, so...
     
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  20. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    That would only be true if they were letting the call on the field stand (which I would support). But they are reversing on the field OS calls because the technology says it was close. That's the true bastardization.
     
  21. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    It seems you have misunderstood my post. She said that the nationality of Howard Webb did not play an important role in her decision to move to England, not the English FA's decision to hire her.
     
  22. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchweek 1

    Brentford - Arsenal
    Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Mike Dean. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis.

    Man Utd - Leeds
    Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Lee Betts.

    Burnley - Brighton
    Referee: David Coote. Assistants: Peter Kirkup, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: Martin Atkinson. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Derek Eaton.

    Chelsea - Crystal Palace
    Referee: Jonathan Moss. Assistants: Marc Perry, Timothy Wood. Fourth official: James Linington. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Harry Lennard.

    Everton - Southampton
    Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Eddie Smart. Fourth official: Tony Harrington. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Dan Robathan.

    Leicester - Wolves
    Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Scott Ledger. Fourth official: Michael Salisbury. VAR: Michael Oliver. Assistant VAR: Dan Cook.

    Watford - Aston Villa
    Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Darren Cann, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Stuart Burt.

    Norwich - Liverpool
    Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Simon Long, Richard West. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Gary Beswick.

    Newcastle - West Ham
    Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Neil Davies.

    Tottenham - Man City
    Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: Craig Pawson. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Constantine Hatzidakis.

    Taylor with the big opener, Tierney for what should be a highly entertaining affair. Moss in charge of the London derby. Oliver and Marriner with away matches for Big Six teams.

    No debut for the new guys yet. Looking at the CR list, it feels almost as if time stood still in England.
     
  23. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Given Leicester's performances in the last two seasons, I will include their matches in the "Big Matches" list. Also, the Merseyside derby is clearly and obviously big, so that will go into the list as well.

    "Big" matches:

    Leicester - Man City (Community Shield): Tierney
    Tottenham - Man City: Taylor
     
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  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Can we stop with the big six distinction? It really doesn't matter that much.

    Refereeing Arsenal away or at home is not some big assignment anymore. Again, we don't highlight when someone is refereeing Newcastle or Everton away.

    Apart from maybe Man City vs United, Man City vs. Liverpool, Liverpool vs. United, Man City vs. Chelsea and one or two other fixtures, every other fixture is practically open for every referee in the EPL pool.
     
  25. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This clip makes me feel better. I gave a PK in a U16 NPL game this weekend where the attacker had his heels clipped twice from behind but managed to get a weak poor angle shot off which the GK saved. Of course the defending team didn't complain because it wasn't a foul they complained because I gave the PK after he got the shot off.
     

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