2021 CONCACAF Champions League (R)

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RefIADad, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/recap-ld-alajuelense-0-atlanta-united-1

    From 1:17 or so. Brad Guzan sent off by Hector Said Martinez. Inexplicably, Martinez originally pulled his yellow card before being surrounded by Alajuelense players (gee, what a surprise in CONCACAF!!) and correctly going with a red card. Honestly, Guzan could have been sent off for either SFP or DOGSO - take your pick. But a big win for Atlanta United in Heinze's debut on the road in Costa Rica.
     
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  2. Alex-Ref

    Alex-Ref Member

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Nov 13, 2019
    Maybe he wanted to caution someone for dissent? Otherwise having the yellow out and then pulling the red is not a good look.

    Seems like a ghost penalty was called for Atlanta United too. I get why he called it since the arm is raised, but it doesn’t look like it actually hits the arm.

    Video:
     
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  3. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    CONCACAF referees giveth, and CONCACAF referees taketh away!! :D
     
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  4. TLR2

    TLR2 Member

    Mar 26, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
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  5. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  6. TLR2

    TLR2 Member

    Mar 26, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Agreed, the other angle is even worse.

     
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  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  8. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I will never understand what CONCACAF referees are doing in their training. I'm not even sure that this is SFP, because I don't think he's even thinking of challenging for the ball. He is going for the player, full stop. I'd need someone to give me a good reason why I wouldn't write this up as VC.
     
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  9. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No idea whatsoever how Blanco didn't see straight red there. That was brutal.
     
  10. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And then all the stuff post-tackle, including player pushing through the ref to brawl can’t be red if that horror foul isn’t red! Disgraceful as usual...
     
  11. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just don't understand how anyone at CONCACAF can look at something like this and think it's OK. I've shared this clip on a England-based referee forum, so at least in refereeing circles this is circulating around the globe now. I get that Europe and South America have their shares of refereeing issues (see the Hategan issue yesterday), but this kind of stuff happens all the time in CONCACAF and nothing is ever done about it. That means this is what the powers that be at CONCACAF really want.

    If I were Raul Jiminez, I'd seriously think about retiring from international competition. Given his head injury, I will legitimately worry for the man's safety in El Tri CONCACAF matches.
     
  12. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    The stat line for that match shows no red cards at all and 5 yellows at the end including Blanco’s.

    How in the world do you not bother with at least one red during the mass confrontation?
     
  13. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's the timeline. Absolutely unreal. Yes, the Union actually got more cautions in that mass confrontation than Saprissa did.

    upload_2021-4-7_21-3-6.png
     
  14. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    The important thing was he ran in quickly to show the yellow. He must have a very high fitness level to come in that quickly after 90 minutes. (Sarcasm meter just pegged at 101)
     
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  15. Union42

    Union42 Member+

    Jul 29, 2013
    Swarthmore, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks like #26 Colindres for Saprissa also saw yellow at 90'+9' according to the MLS box score, so that makes 2 YC for each team coming out of that mass confrontation.
     
  16. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are right. I didn’t shrink my screen enough. Still mind blowing there wasn’t at least one Sapirssa send off from the mass con-to say nothing about Blanco’s assault on Wagner.
     
  17. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because CONCACAF is unlike any other confederation in the world with Mexico and US dominant in terms of money and influence and then a lot of very poor nations who are too small to be competitive on the field, and then 6 or so Central American nations that can't hang with the US or Mexico straight up, but can through force/field conditions/officiating mistakes. But that is only the surface issue. The real heart issue is that CONCACAF really exists to distribute the money that these games and international tournaments and FIFA generates. And it is worked out that the money gets distributed more or less equally. Thus the goal of CONCACAF is not to have clean soccer or even the best officials on a game, but the goal of CONCACAF is to get central American (or even Caribbean) teams as many games as possible, and if they have officials that can more or less hang, then to get them games as well. If that happens at the American's expense, then whatever.
    Thus, if that referee (probably from Honduras or El Salvador) goes straight red on Blanco, then that is going to be a problem for him and for his crew. It doesn't help anyone (except maybe the US team stay strong...but again, who cares?). But a yellow, and then throw a bunch more cautions for the Union's retaliation...well look, he has now managed a difficult situation, and he will be fine with his next assignment in Costa Rica, and CONCACAF lives another day.
    There was hope with Hall leading the charge with CONCACAF officials there might be change, but that ship is too large to steer, and Hall is probably wrapped up in the same system he inherited. What is he going to do? Only use Mexican or Canadian referees on US games? No way. He's stuck too. I mean this has been CONCACAF at least for the last 30 years. I've heard it wasn't this way back when the US failed to qualify for the world cup (pre 1990), but it certainly has been this way ever since.
     
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  18. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I write this fully recognizing that it will never happen for a bunch of reasons, but I'd love it if the US and Mexico could tell CONCACAF to pound sand and move to CONMEBOL. I realize World Cup qualification would be a lot tougher, but things like we saw last night happen far, far too much in this region.

    If the US and Mexico left CONCACAF, the confederation would be in a race with OFC for most useless and irrelevant regional confederation.
     
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  19. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As far as red cards in the mass confrontation, the one that I think would be likely to be sent down by an MLS VAR was Saprissa #26, who appeared to land both an elbow and a headbutt on Glesnes. In a CONCACAF match? Who knows what a VAR would do yet.
     
  20. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are looking live at a future CONCACAF VAR control room . . . :D
    [​IMG]
     
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  21. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #21 gold4278, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    The first Union player to jump in there post foul deserves one too...
     
  22. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Saw this from the Concacafed newsletter I get, but thought it was interesting. Apparantly, the ref for the game in question, Cornejo, is not usually shy about giving out red cards, but he must know to instill the CONCACAF aesthetic when calling confederation games. upload_2021-4-8_9-39-56.png
     
  23. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hall no longer has the reigns, Lance is such a great guy but he might be in a bit deep and over his head here:

    http://flsrc.org/2020/01/lance-vanhaitsma-now-concacaf-referee-manager/
     
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  24. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have been thinking about this for at least the last 5-6 years, maybe more. If we really want our Nats to improve while playing against the best, this is the correct move.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #25 MassachusettsRef, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    There was?

    I think this is undeservingly generous toward Hall in orders of magnitude that are impossible to quantify.

    CONCACAF officiating has never been great. But there have been some great referees outside the big two countries, such as Batres. There have been other opportunities to develop very good referees, like Barton now. The problems that existed couldn't be glossed over, but it was mostly about inconsistency and not enough referees from smaller nations being ready for bigger games. And then there were, of course, questions about assigning. Those problems still exist. The issue is that the on-field product has gotten worse.

    The "run as fast as you can and try not to card for anything" regime was created under Hall. Couple that with an implementation of VAR that is impossibly slow in a region where the two biggest leagues have implemented it about as fast as anyone else in the world. And now maybe no referee that anyone trusts with USA v Mexico (whereas you could always conjure up a couple consistent guys that you could see on that game--notwithstanding opinions about Aguilar).

    Where has Hall succeeded? Where has there been any visible or tangible display of positive progress?
     
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