2020-2021 England Referee Appointments (EPL+) [Rs]

Rufusabc · Jan 4, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

But this isn't true. The ball was never in play because not one of the 23 humans on the field thought for a milisecond this was going to count as a real free kick. There reaches a point where the practical has to trump the theoretical. This is a clear case. I've seen people in several referee groups and fora have a problem with this restart situation... yet no one on the field did. That should tell us everything. No one ever thought this was a "live ball." The only question was whether Oliver slams on the whistle, asserts himself, issues a caution and goes to a ceremonial restart or... does what he did. Both avenues have virtues and both avenues can be the best option in different situations. I envisage a slightly different situation that would require Oliver to make this ceremonial and go the caution route. But I think he had more than enough leeway here to do what he did.

Regardless, to say this was a "live ball" and that the ball was ever in play off the first kick? No one involved in the game ever believed or thought that. So neither should we.

Maybe. I can't speak to the rest of the game and whether or not earlier/more intervention would have been good or bad. But in this particular case... what does Villa want more?

Oliver "stopping the statue" with a yellow card and a ceremonial restart?

Or Oliver "stopping the statue" but not rewarding it and allow a quick restart that leads to a goal?

I find it impossible to debate this scenario without acknowledging that any other decision from Oliver--aside from the one he actually took--would benefit the defending team and reward misconduct from one of its players.
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we can go round and round on this. But, I watched the whole match. Villa attempted to play quickly several times in the match, and United obstructed the start on several occasions. And as I said player who put the ball IN PLAY raised his arms to Oliver as if to say WTF.

MassachusettsRef · Jan 4, 2021

Rufusabc said: ↑

we can go round and round on this.
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Likely. But I'll take a final stab.

But, I watched the whole match. Villa attempted to play quickly several times in the match, and United obstructed the start on several occasions.
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And I conceded I didn't watch the whole match and wasn't speaking to any pattern or lack thereof. Because from your initial post, that was not the question. It was about this particular incident and how it was handled. If you intended to make a larger point about how the delaying of quick free kicks was a pattern that needed to be addressed earlier in the match, you could have done so. That's a different debate/analysis.

My ultimate point is that picking a time to address such behavior with a caution and ceremonial restart when doing so would have taken away the very type of attacking opportunity Villa wanted would be the height of irony. It would reward the cheating that you assert was endemic throughout the match. That's what I was saying in the final paragraph of my previous post. This just seems fundamental to me. You want United to stop their delaying tactics and be punished... what better punishment than conceding a goal from a quick free kick?

And as I said player who put the ball IN PLAY raised his arms to Oliver as if to say WTF.
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This would be my other big point. The referee decides if the ball is in play. I don't. You don't. The player trying to take the kick doesn't. Nor does the player failing to respect the distance. There's no technical legalese here, but essentially Oliver is deeming this an aborted attempt to put the ball in play due to the statue. Instead of being aggressive and going for a whistle, yellow card and ceremonial restart, he recognizes the advantage Villa will have from trying to take the free kick quickly again and allows it... resulting in a goal. That's the better outcome for Villa and that's why Oliver went that route. He should be praised.

Insisting that the ball was "in play" doesn't make it so when the referee didn't deem it as such and, perhaps just as important, no one else on the field acted like it was in play (which, of course, is like the top reason why Oliver didn't deem it in play). Once the statue happened and the ball bounced backward, did anyone pursue it as if the ball was live? No. There are eight United players in the video frame when the second Villa player kicks the ball twice and then sets it with his hands to take the free kick... all eight United players are continuing to move back toward their own goal, rather than going toward the ball. There isn't a soul on the field that acted like this ball was in play, because they knew it wasn't.

socal lurker · Jan 4, 2021

I found this a very interesting sequence (as described--I haven't seen it). My initial reaction was you have to either caution or call the handling. (And I still think I think that for the level of games I do.) But @MassachusettsRef makes a strong case for why it was better from a fairness perspective to handle this way, and a hook from a Laws basis. I think the hook is a bit cute. It sounds to me like the player "taking" the kick was deliberately doing so and was trying to get the perp cautioned. I'm not sure granting him that wish would have been a bad decision. But what the ref did seems to have worked, been accepted by both teams, and does have that hook to the Laws. (I do wonder, however, if this is one of those issues that would have been avoided by addressing earlier in the game if, as described, it was a constant throughout the game.)

MassachusettsRef · Jan 4, 2021

socal lurker said: ↑

(as described--I haven't seen it).
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This should be teed up at the appropriate moment (6:26 on video):

Pierre Head · Jan 4, 2021

It seems to me that Oliver seemed to be taken aback by what happened and didn't have time to think about what
was going on so just went with the flow.
Not sure if it all was reasoned out in his mind as to what was the better course of action.
Too many possibilities with YC for FRD, or HB against AV etc.
So forget it all and play on!

Justice was served in the end with the AV goal, so it made Oliver look good finally.

PH

Pierre Head · Jan 4, 2021

Not 2020/21 but good example of excellent man-management!

PH

balu · Jan 4, 2021

Carabao Cup Semifinals (one-legged this year)

Tottenham - Brentford: DEAN (4O: Mason, VAR: Bankes)
Man Utd - Man City: ATKINSON (4O: Coote, VAR: Moss)

Dean in charge of a semifinal for the third year in a row.

balu · Jan 4, 2021

"Big Six" matches:

Arsenal - Liverpool (Community Shield): Marriner
Chelsea - Liverpool: Tierney
Liverpool - Arsenal: Pawson
Tottenham - Chelsea (Carabao Cup): Mason
Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Friend
Man Utd - Tottenham: Taylor
Man City - Arsenal: Kavanagh
Man Utd - Chelsea: Atkinson
Man Utd - Arsenal: Dean
Man City - Liverpool: Pawson
Tottenham - Man City: Dean
Chelsea - Tottenham: Tierney
Tottenham - Arsenal: Atkinson
Man Utd - Man City: Kavanagh
Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor
Arsenal - Man City (Carabao Cup): Attwell
Arsenal - Chelsea: Oliver
Chelsea - Man City: Taylor
Man Utd - Man City (Carabao Cup): Atkinson

Distribution of these matches in the EPL:

Taylor: 3
Atkinson: 2
Dean: 2
Kavanagh: 2
Pawson: 2
Tierney: 2
Oliver: 1

Midwest Ref · Jan 4, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

This should be teed up at the appropriate moment (6:26 on video):

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100% agree with @MassachusettsRef here. Oliver does nothing to overtly interfere that would require him to make the second kick ceremonial. The quick free kick the first time can be looked at as both teams being wrong. United is trying to stop the quick kick and Villa is trying to buy a cheap caution. Neither team succeeds. At this level, I think the restart is fine. Notice when the goal goes in, none of the United players are protesting (not that protesting would mean they were correct, just showing that the decision was accepted as completely normal.)

Sport Billy · Jan 4, 2021

Midwest Ref said: ↑

100% agree with @MassachusettsRef here. Oliver does nothing to overtly interfere that would require him to make the second kick ceremonial. The quick free kick the first time can be looked at as both teams being wrong. United is trying to stop the quick kick and Villa is trying to buy a cheap caution. Neither team succeeds. At this level, I think the restart is fine. Notice when the goal goes in, none of the United players are protesting (not that protesting would mean they were correct, just showing that the decision was accepted as completely normal.)
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I mostly agree with this. However, the United player did act overtly. He lifted his foot in the direction the Villa player was first going to play the ball.
He is deserving of a caution.
To do so, allows him to accomplish what he already tried to do illegally - stop a quick restart.
As such, I think the CR’s no action is the correct action here.

balu · Jan 5, 2021

The Liverpool - Man Utd match on Jan 17 is now massive. Taylor is the obvious favorite, but wonder if Dean may have a shot now that he has started handling Liverpool matches.

Rufusabc · Jan 5, 2021

In today’s League Cup semi-final, there was a bang bang tackle late in the match that at full speed live looks like a foul and nothing more. VAR intervention and it is a red card to Brentford’s Josh Disilva. He got Hojbjerg of Spurs about 3 inches below the knee, studs and all. A nasty cut, but at speed Mike Dean missed it. I saw the replay a bunch of times at speed, and I still missed it until they slowed it down. The announcer said it was a tough call. Until Hojbjerg took down his sock!!

RefIADad · Jan 5, 2021

I haven't seen the replay yet, but that type of play can show the benefit of VAR. I'll have to watch that particular play later tonight.

Regarding ManU-Liverpool, it seems like there could be a controversy if Dean or Taylor work the match with one referee from the Manchester area (Taylor) and the other from the Liverpool area (Dean). Now I think both would have zero issues working the game, but unfortunately talking points and narratives override rational thought. It will be interesting to see how PGMOL assigns that match.

Alex-Ref · Jan 5, 2021

I think Oliver will get the game. Dean and Taylor might be excluded due to location issues as noted above; Atkinson had a controversial game between the two teams last season at Old Trafford. Of course, I could be wrong and any of the four might get it. Pawson also has a chance as he did the game at Anfield last season (although with a bit of controversy) and has been getting bigger assignments recently (man city vs liverpool as an example).

Pittsburgh Ref · Jan 5, 2021

RefIADad said: ↑

Regarding ManU-Liverpool, it seems like there could be a controversy if Dean or Taylor work the match with one referee from the Manchester area (Taylor) and the other from the Liverpool area (Dean). Now I think both would have zero issues working the game, but unfortunately talking points and narratives override rational thought. It will be interesting to see how PGMOL assigns that match.
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Do it Pele-style, let them each take a half!

balu · Jan 5, 2021

Let's look at previous Liverpool - Man Utd meetings in the Premier League.

2019/20
Man Utd 1-1 Liverpool: ATKINSON
Liverpool 2-0 Man Utd: PAWSON

2018/19
Liverpool 3-1 Man Utd: ATKINSON
Man Utd 0-0 Liverpool: OLIVER

2017/18
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd: ATKINSON
Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool: PAWSON

2016/17
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd: TAYLOR
Man Utd 1-1 Liverpool: OLIVER

2015/16
Man Utd 3-1 Liverpool: OLIVER
Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd: CLATTENBURG

2014/15
Man Utd 3-0 Liverpool: ATKINSON
Liverpool 1-2 Man Utd: ATKINSON

Atkinson is by far the most trusted for this fixture, but he's doing the EFL Cup Manchester derby, so it seems unlikely (though under these circumstances, who knows). Oliver has seen Man Utd recently twice recently and is not having the best of seasons. Taylor has done it before but has the location issue, so Pawson may be the best bet.

bothways · Jan 5, 2021

dark horse...Paul Tierney...not a flashy ref..solid..looks more comfortable than coote or kavamagh
if I am right...can I get a prize

balu · Jan 5, 2021

bothways said: ↑

dark horse...Paul Tierney...not a flashy ref..solid..looks more comfortable than coote or kavamagh
if I am right...can I get a prize
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You can get BigSoccer bragging rights

balu · Jan 6, 2021

Matchweek 18

Sheffield - Newcastle
Referee: Andy Madley. Assistants: Eddie Smart, Derek Eaton. Fourth official: Lee Mason. VAR: Robert Jones. Assistant VAR: Mark Scholes.

Burnley - Man Utd
Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Simon Beck, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: Peter Bankes. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

Wolves - Everton
Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Adam Nunn, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Jonathan Moss. Assistant VAR: Peter Kirkup.

Man City - Brighton
Referee: Darren England. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Michael Oliver. VAR: Mike Dean. Assistant VAR: Dan Robathan.

Aston Villa - Tottenham
Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Lee Betts, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: Chris Kavanagh. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

Arsenal - Crystal Palace
Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Scott Ledger, Simon Long. Fourth official: Simon Hooper. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Timothy Wood.

England in charge of a Big Six team for the first time. Atkinson keeps working.

MassachusettsRef · Jan 6, 2021

RefIADad said: ↑

I haven't seen the replay yet, but that type of play can show the benefit of VAR. I'll have to watch that particular play later tonight.
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7:50 below. I love how he only takes one look at it. And then it leads to an iconic Mike Dean red card delivery:

RefIADad · Jan 6, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

7:50 below. I love how he only takes one look at it. And then it leads to an iconic Mike Dean red card delivery:

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All that was missing was an "Off, you pop!"

Rufusabc · Jan 7, 2021

RefIADad said: ↑

All that was missing was an "Off, you pop!"
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i didn’t notice it the first few times I watched it, but Dean looks back at the two players who collided, and (I am surmising) cannot tell who did what to whom. It appears as though whistle goes to mouth briefly, and then the action is down the other way.

To those who know how VAR works, would the VAR already be telling Dean they are looking instantly? And, would Dean know it’s red before he begins his walk to the screen?

MassachusettsRef · Jan 7, 2021

Rufusabc said: ↑

i didn’t notice it the first few times I watched it, but Dean looks back at the two players who collided, and (I am surmising) cannot tell who did what to whom. It appears as though whistle goes to mouth briefly, and then the action is down the other way.
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My presumption is that he considered stopping play for the injury and then realized that was unwise. If he thought there was a foul challenge, he would have reacted (even if that meant simply pausing) earlier.

To those who know how VAR works, would the VAR already be telling Dean they are looking instantly?
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It's important to remember that the VAR is literally looking at every challenge. So instantly communicating "we're looking at this" would be irrelevant information and just noise. Once it reaches the level where the VAR thinks they might have a red card, they would say "checking (possible red card)" to communicate that it's being seriously looked at. And, if there is a stoppage before the VAR has reached his conclusion, the VAR (or AVAR) is saying "delay delay delay" to prevent the restart from occuring.

Like any communication, some CRs might want a little more or a little less. And some CRs that are very comfortable will proactively communicate to the VAR with "check that closely, didn't get a good look" or something similar, to stress that they already have awareness of something being amiss.

And, would Dean know it’s red before he begins his walk to the screen?
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The referee is only going to the screen in a situation like this if there is a recommendation from the VAR that this is a clear red card. So, yes, he knows the VAR is saying it's a red card.

Caveat that all this applies to how VAR is supposed to go when it's working properly and efficiently. I still have many doubts about how well English referees are executing the finer points of the VAR space.

Rufusabc · Jan 7, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

My presumption is that he considered stopping play for the injury and then realized that was unwise. If he thought there was a foul challenge, he would have reacted (even if that meant simply pausing) earlier.

It's important to remember that the VAR is literally looking at every challenge. So instantly communicating "we're looking at this" would be irrelevant information and just noise. Once it reaches the level where the VAR thinks they might have a red card, they would say "checking (possible red card)" to communicate that it's being seriously looked at. And, if there is a stoppage before the VAR has reached his conclusion, the VAR (or AVAR) is saying "delay delay delay" to prevent the restart from occuring.

Like any communication, some CRs might want a little more or a little less. And some CRs that are very comfortable will proactively communicate to the VAR with "check that closely, didn't get a good look" or something similar, to stress that they already have awareness of something being amiss.

The referee is only going to the screen in a situation like this if there is a recommendation from the VAR that this is a clear red card. So, yes, he knows the VAR is saying it's a red card.

Caveat that all this applies to how VAR is supposed to go when it's working properly and efficiently. I still have many doubts about how well English referees are executing the finer points of the VAR space.
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thank you for all of that. I have a clearer visual of the room now, and the process. Do you also know if there is a button that they push to alert the announce team too? They seem to get the info that a check is in progress pretty quickly.

MassachusettsRef · Jan 7, 2021

Rufusabc said: ↑

thank you for all of that. I have a clearer visual of the room now, and the process. Do you also know if there is a button that they push to alert the announce team too? They seem to get the info that a check is in progress pretty quickly.
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For MLS, there is a VRC (usually a local former or lower level referee) who is in charge of communicating official information about checks and reviews (via Slack) to relevant media in real-time. I imagine there’s a similar operation in most leagues, though England has the centralized VAR location so it’s likely some sort of staff member handling it.