Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #527 PuckVanHeel, Nov 21, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
    As you can read there on the wikipedia page, this Indies national team started in 1934. It ended after the independence struggles of Indonesia.

    The vast majority of the above listed players (in the link) started their career before 1934. The 46 listed on the Wikipedia page started all their national team career before 1934.

    This is how the mentioned distribution looks on a map (per september 2020)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    In 73% of the games the captain came from either North or South Holland! Very meritocratic that, although the current captain is of course from Brabant (Breda). As WF Hermans famously wrote within the pillarization/segregation of the 1950s (decorated by the Belgian King!): "if you shake the hand of a Roman-Catholic, you have to count your fingers afterwards." That was (sometimes) the mood.
     
  2. Fun fact is that we're the only country ever to have played with two national teams in a world cup and we were the first Asian "country" that was on a worldcup.
    Never going to happen again.

    No, England and Scotland etc. donot count. The Orange team represented the whole of the Dutch kingdom, while there isnot/wasnot a United Kingdom team.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah, strangely both teams had the same flag and same national anthem as well. The Indies played in an orange shirt, light-blue socks and white shorts (e.g. the euro 2008 color scheme).
    https://sportgeschiedenis.nl/sporte...trijd-van-nederlands-indie-op-het-wk-voetbal/

    The national anthem with the lines: "we have always honored the King of Spain" and "we are of German blood", that is played with these lines before each national team game. :cautious:
     
  4. :ROFLMAO:
    Yeah, especially to hear that coming out of the mouths of the local players must have been hilarious.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is the best article I've seen so far about the goalkeeping situation:


    Want to play soccer? A goalkeeper has to stop balls

    Dutch keepers The level of keepers in the Netherlands must be raised. The KNVB technical staff developed a profile for the ideal goalkeeper. "Sitting still is not an option."
    [...]
    An indictment against the level of the Dutch keepers? Yes, in the sense that the KNVB football association has now developed a profile for the ideal goalkeeper. Because the technical staff at the national office in Zeist have taken hold of the conviction that the level of the keepers must be raised significantly.

    A disturbing example is the Dutch national team, where Edwin van der Sar has not received an equal successor since his retirement in 2010. Via Maarten Stekelenburg, Tim Krul, Michel Vorm, Kenneth Vermeer and Jeroen Zoet, national coach Ronald Koeman, interim Dwight Lodeweges and, recently, Frank de Boer, had the first choice over Jasper Cillessen, now relegated to reserve goalkeeper at his Spanish club Valencia. All those (former) Orange goalkeepers are above average, with a strong reputation at international level, but no world leaders; not of the level of Van der Sar, or before that Hans van Breukelen and in an even deeper past Jan van Beveren or Frans de Munck.
    [...]
    Patrick Lodewijks is concerned about these developments and the level of the Dutch keepers in a general sense, he says. Not such that he wants to speak of a crisis situation, but sitting still is not an option, according to the goalkeeper coach of Orange, who crosses the border with slightly jealous looks at the German Marc-André ter Stegen (Barcelona), the Brazilian Ederson (Manchester City), his fellow countryman Alisson Becker (Liverpool), but especially his absolute favorite, the Slovenian Jan Oblak from Atlético Madrid. These top keepers partly inspired him to draw up a report, which Lodewijks himself describes as "the profile for the ideal keeper of the future" and is essentially intended to structurally educate one or more world top players.

    Overshot
    Where Lodewijks is still mild, elsewhere there is harder criticism of the state of keeping the Netherlands. Stan Valckx, who as football manager on behalf of VVV-Venlo with Unnerstall and afterwards Thorsten Kirschbaum chose a German goalkeeper twice in a row, thinks that the training places too much emphasis on playing soccer. “We have gone through that. My priority is that keepers get balls. And you do that with your hands, ”says the former international. “Furthermore, we think length is important. But you will no longer find Dutch keepers of about 1.95 meters. When promoted to the Eredivisie four seasons ago, we had four candidate goalkeepers, three of whom were Germans. They are educated and have height. Those few good Dutch keepers play at top clubs. We could not find a suitable candidate for our level. ”

    Frans Hoek, founder of many goalkeeper training methods (nonpartisan source here - PvH), former goalkeeper coach of Oranje and nowadays technical advisor to the Japanese football association, hardly registers any new developments in the Netherlands. “Based on what I see on the field and what I hear from students on the courses, the courses have been marginally adjusted and many continue to work in the old, familiar way. That is not positive. Training should lead to improvements. But if we are realistic and look at the level of the Dutch keepers, we have to question that. There is a wave of good field players, but after Van der Sar there is no more outspoken number-one goalkeeper in the Netherlands. I notice a trend that goalkeepers lag behind the field players. The questions we have to ask are: If there are talents why don't we identify them? Are we doing enough to bring keepers to the highest level? ”

    Huub Stevens' answer to that last question is: no. As a former coach of six Bundesliga clubs, he has to conclude, "that the German goalkeepers are slightly ahead of their Dutch counterparts in terms of stopping balls". Is it in the training, which in Stevens' eyes is better provided in our neighboring country. „The goalkeeper coaches are of a high level. There is money. There is more individual training. In the Netherlands, the keeper is expected to play football and participate in positional games. He is therefore less often standing in goal. And we miss examples to look for. If Jeroen Zoet is no longer in the starting line-up at PSV, like last season, but is still selected for Orange, that is not an example for young Dutch keepers. ”

    Lodewijks was curious about those foreign ideal pictures and crossed the borders for a few sniffing internships. What are they doing differently? This is how he ended up with his German colleague Marc Ziegler. What turned out? "That goalkeeping training is done there three times as often," says the goalkeeper coach of Orange. “In Germany, more emphasis is placed on athletic ability, so more intensive training is done on basic skills such as diving, falling, floating, positioning, jumping, catching and punching. And the emphasis there is on stopping balls. A goalkeeper is the only player who is allowed to use his hands, an element that must never be subordinated in training. ”

    His foreign experiences projected on the current situation within the KNVB taught Lodewijks that adjustments and improvements in the goalkeeper training are desperately needed. The association offers trainer courses at three levels, but without the link of a license. "Any plumber can, so to speak, become a goalkeeper coach," says Lodewijks, who puts the blame partly on the clubs. These are divided over a license obligation, partly because of the staffing and the resulting costs.

    Lodewijks: „Ultimately, the clubs themselves decide whether such a license will be issued. I think it would be good, otherwise you can ask yourself how seriously the profession of goalkeeper coach is taken. ”

    His conclusion that the goalkeeper training within the KNVB urgently needs to be improved, led Lodewijks to draw up an action and competence overview for keepers, intended for both men and women. He has been busy with that for two years. All skills are meticulously described in consultation with colleagues. “From defending to attacking and from switching to defending and attacking. We speak, for example, of "indirect danger" with everything 25 meters away from the target and of "direct danger" with all actions around the target. But all competences are also arranged in detail for diving, falling, floating, positioning, jumping, catching and punching. And that from eleven years old, from pupil to the keeper of a national team. You cannot expect a goalkeeper of twelve to be able to shoot the ball at half of the opponent when kicking off ”, says Lodewijks, who was surprised that such a document did not exist at the KNVB.

    Mandatory keeping
    The competence and action view has now been tested by ten large amateur clubs throughout the Netherlands. The feedback is positive. Clubs were satisfied with the in-depth details and see it as a good basis for their goalkeeper training. One of the proposals is not to choose a permanent keeper for the youngest youth, but to rotate in that position per match, or even during the match.

    “That way, every soccer player can make a choice: goalkeeping or playing soccer. Anyone who has never been on goal does not know whether they like it ”, says Lodewijks, who says that the new document will be processed in the KNVB's 'Rinus app', the digital tool for training forms. Furthermore, the profile will be integrated in all KNVB training courses.

    Writing down is one, executing two. That responsibility lies with the clubs. “We have taken a lot of work off their hands,” says Lodewijks. “But if the response is: good work KNVB, but we are going to do something different, be my guest. But do something, take the initiative. Waiting for talent to suddenly surface is not a possibility. ”
    https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/11/10/meevoetballen-een-keeper-moet-ballen-tegenhouden-a4019519

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My view is that this is basically correct, at the same time others are right the goalkeeper hasn't been the problem for missing 2016 and 2018. 2016 was the defensive organization and using some oldies like half-injured Van Persie for too long, 2018 was derailed by a very tough qualifying group and one unfortunate cancelled goal (Sneijder played good/great in that Sweden away match btw, while scoring a goal).

    It wasn't really because of the goalkeepers. In 2010 there was someone who was maybe the best goalkeeper of the tournament; in 2014 some important saves as well and roughly ranked between 5 and 10 of that tournament or so (something like that). If observers say "at worst, no more than two of his sixty games were sub-standard", then that's also true. Yet, no really exceptional goalkeeper either and it's always good to be critical. As Cruijff used to say: if you recognize a problem then it is almost no problem any more, you're halfway solving it.
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    After reading the pretty good biography during the curfew - with riots as background noise (the worst since 1980) - I have definitely a fuller picture now.

    One of the things I didn't quite realize, is how he once had a status of being an 'Oracle' of the sport, and had ideas on how the sport had to be played: this was more significant than I sensed previously. It's not a hagiography though: main negatives are primarily his regular laziness as a footballer (despite all those goals) and also a stiff and obstinate character. Though his individuality, as the parts below will illustrate, was also part of his standing. In interviews, on tape, he spoke with a semi-provincial farmers accent.

    Culturally he was part of the first generation to challenge the post-war restoration and break glass ceilings in educational terms. Thus from a mental point of view he represented a certain aspiration and upward freedom. His (semi-)contemporary Wilkes in contrast came already from a relatively well-off background, a (small) business family, even though he suffered much more during the war and Lenstra his father attained a better positions shortly before the war (both his father and he were of the 'red family'; later in life Abe sat and monitored polling stations on behalf of the Labour Party).

    In support for the upward aspiration that started at the time:

    For how the cultural part worked, actually at many places in Europe, this is a good article by the so called 'journalist of the century' (article of January 2006).

    At the back there is also a selection of quotes. Here the most poignant ones:

    Wim Molenaar: "Even at the way he tied his laces you could see how he was. How precise and how he prepared. I followed this in the dressing room sometimes, smiling. Abe never had his knots on the outside. With his outside he applied effect to his wonderful passes and shots. That was a matter of millimeters, and then every unevenness could be relevant."

    Jan Vesters: "His intellect was more subtle than the straight-through-the-middle brain of Faas Wilkes. Lenstra was especially the grand master in anticipation: thinking ahead, by learned instinct. Three, four moves in the future, a trait that often made him the most misunderstood player on the pitch as well."

    Thom Mercuur: "Abe clashed with everyone who wanted to arrange something for him. He was non-conformistic. Diplomacy was not in his repertoire. That also doesn't fit into the character-structure of an artist like Abe. The people liked it. Many secretly like to do and let go what he wants, but often people don't dare. Abe did. He did exactly what came to his mind. Because of that he was soon perceived as some kind of hero."

    Jopie Huisman: "Abe lazy? He was almost a genius really, you cannot compare that to normal footballers. He had very different rights."

    Jan Vesters: "Abe Lenstra his greatest accomplishment has certainly been how he has directly or indirectly inspired generations of future footballers.[...] This is a distinction that goes into thousands towards Abe."

    Jacques van den Berg (in 1970): "I don't think there has been another footballer as universally respected by the masses. Coen Moulijn and Johan Cruijff have a large group of fans, but their popularity show a limited range. Abe was a hero, if you like, for the entire Dutch public. In Amsterdam just as much as in Rotterdam and in Brabant as much as in Limburg."

    Rinus Michels (who played with/against him): "If Abe was motivated, if he really liked it, then it was an unique footballer. There was at those games maybe not a better player in the whole world. Certainly on the ball he controlled and mastered all the aspects. He had the gift, the overview of Cruijff. I don't say that to flatter. He wasn't though a leader of the team. That all is the extra dimension of Cruijff, who is as much a creative artist as footballer. For the rest Abe was a very complete forward."

    Riemer van de Velde: "If not Cruijff but Lenstra had been born in Amsterdam, then the other one had been propelled into player of the century."

    Johan Cruijff (at the day of Lenstra his passing): "The image I have of the footballer Abe Lenstra, is primarily primed by the many stories and anecdotes I heard about him. Stories that were always signed by endearment and admiration for a man, who had as footballer and human something extraordinary. For millions Dutchmen he was because of that the eminent people's hero and for many Abe has always remained this.
    Later I occasionally encountered him, often at an interland or the Amsterdam-tournament, where he often came as guest. To the question whether he with his typical style and mentality will find a place in current top football, I think the answer is in the affirmative. Because I think adaptation wouldn't be beyond Abe. By virtue of his excellent qualities he had reached the top as well in one shape or another. Class of this level doesn't deceive. He leaves a void behind."


    Faas Wilkes: "When you add up and combine Abe and Faas, you get Johan Cruijff."

    Herman Kuiphof: "Abe didn't trust the money in Italy. He didn't trust AC Milan, didn't trust Italy. 'Who says they will pay?' Abe said: 'If the chairman is dead tomorrow, or isn't elected, everything will stand on loose screws.' Abe had not the guts."

    Homme Siebenga: "Outside of sport Abe was pretty superficial I'd say. About sport, not football alone, he knew everything. I encountered him later again when he was representative for Amstel. He didn't have depth in his talk. You couldn't have a normal, good conversation with him, if it wasn't about sport."


    Jan Mulder: "Abe Lenstra. That is what you couldn't think. There was in Friesland also not another family with that name. Abe was an understanding, a longing, that you could never achieve, but only dream about. Every day again."

    I'll move through the book and highlight some of the most relevant parts in further posts. Just in terms of performance I'm still somewhat uncertain, but for historic relevance I'd think a place closely after Cruijff, Van Basten etc. makes sense (thus not something like #29 or so)
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Luckily it's quieter at the moment and the bizarre scenes have faded out, but I echo 'DutchFanatic' his comments that I'm seriously anxious now.

    Large scale attacks on the truth and reality are carried out (frankly, the hide-and-seek - borderline conspiracy - communication by even some of the most civilized governments doesn't help; and then also acting accordingly). These anti-truth groups and political parties have large followings in even the best run societies on the planet (Sweden, Finland, Switzerland etc.), which are probably not particularly insular either.

    Whatever societal problems and weaknesses there might be or only very minimally (or rather complicated grey areas like the discussion on the measurement of the wealth inequality), this are not merely the 'deplorables', the migrants. This are the fishermen, the account managers, the lawyers, the mid-rank employees at ASML and Shell. The farmers who storm the provincial parliaments with their tractors are technically millionaires - "I'm happy, I'm millionaire and I seize parliament". The same is true for the kids in migrant areas or fishermen towns who realistically (per field studies by The Lancet) don't have a lot to complain (there is segregation in the capital but once again the question is if it's particularly pronounced compared to Brussels, Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm; the center-right government actively tried to reduce child poverty - "It should be zero in 2030").

    Finally, the penal climate and sentences aren't very forgiving and soft either. There are no obvious things that can be done and it's frightening, and it's also frightening things like this happen (the move by ~25% to extremism) in a few of the usual poster child countries, the socialist salvation states where the nights are short and the winters cold (banning Facebook entirely maybe helps but is perhaps not allowed under EU rules; I'd also say the #2 of the default governing party shouldn't use words as "banana monarchy" and a direct comparison to curfew under Nazi occupation).


    Let's start with the afterword (as good as possible):

    https://biografieportaal.nl/recensie/abe-lenstra-biografie-jan-mast/
    http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/bwn1880-2000/lemmata/bwn4/lenstra

    [after two paragraphs, on the request to republish in 2020 at the 100th birthday]

    "Abe Lenstra will not be forgotten, if only because the stadium of SC Heerenveen has his name. It makes the legend into living material. At the same time there is the realization also legends are subject to devaluation. I realized this in the hot summer of 2018. The magazine Voetbal International created a special with the 50 best footballers of the country. Abe Lenstra was allocated the 29th place. This position doesn't do him justice but is explainable. It says a great amount about the shifting of insights at ever renewing editorial boards. That is how life is. Memories are personal, they extinguish with the ones who carry them. Someone who never saw him play with their own eyes, is not touched by fascination and is reduced to photos and grainy material. Perhaps that those ascribe 'us Abe' ("He looks chubby on the photos") a lower relevance as Ruud Krol or Willy van der Kuijlen. Those who saw him with their own eyes know better. Sportjournalist and writer Henk Spaan (of 1948) placed Lenstra in 1998 on number three in his top 100 of the twentieth century.

    A biographer is however objective and isn't blinded by adoration. This is not an attempt to make Lenstra retrospectively bigger than he was. It is an attempt to place him in the right context and perspective, do justice. This book is therefore also the result of thorough research. I am born in 1970 and never saw him play football.
    [...]
    The realization came there wasn't a really good biography yet and knew it was now or never. The generational peers of Lenstra were between 2004 and 2007, the years in which I worked on the initial edition, somewhere in their mid eighties. If I wanted to speak them, I had to act quick. That is visible in the list with names of interviewed persons. Many of them are no longer among us. This book couldn't be made in 2019 or 2020.
    [...]
    I received every chance to complete the initial version of 2007 with material that I was forced to drop with pain in my heart. That this version is more complete as the previous edition, gives great relief."



    There are things in the book that started me thinking, such as: maybe the name helps too. In 1980 he was guest at the football game LA Aztecs - New York Cosmos, in Los Angeles. The American crowd, informed that a "Dutch sportslegend" was in the stadium, spontanously chanted "Abe! Abe!, to the pleasure of the man who in the past heard his name not so often shouted in the Feyenoord stadium." (page 286)
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I just gave you a rep here Puck 9 years later lol, because @Pavlin Arnaudov is interested in average ratings in general including from the Netherlands and I linked him this thread by PM in case it's useful to see (he already saw the DBS Calcio ratings that I had noticed for two seasons in the 90s - I started a thread re: that of course - maybe those ratings are generated from this same source or it was one of their sources at least but I haven't tried to assess that yet to be honest). This 83/84 post of yours does have a nice little bit of info about average ratings of notable players so I think it's a good one to specifically highlight for you Pavlin too.
     
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  9. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    From which newspaper are these ratings and can you give more detailed ratings for Ajax players, please!
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    As something funny and remarkable;

    The last month or so I saw something in the category "less likely to happen today" and "different times".

    In the current atmosphere of so called 'corporate yes men', virtue signalers and foreign employers (foreign, global clubs) that usually don't like to see footballers voicing controversial things.


    For the national election of 1972, national team players were asked about their voting preference:

    [​IMG]

    Luckily this is easy to translate immediately:

    Jan van Beveren: “I don't know yet whether I will vote. And on who? They all promise a lot, but I do not believe that there is one party that can adequately solve problems such as currency depreciation and the environment.”

    Dick Schneider: “I vote D'66. Viewed from a progressive-social point of view. If I only looked at myself, I would take Wiegel.” (A year later, he was more convinced of D'66.)

    Barry Hulshoff: “I vote D'66.”

    Aad Mansveld: “I don't vote at all. I am not politically interested.”

    Ruud Krol: “I will vote, but I don't know for what yet. When is it actually? I haven't gotten involved in it yet.”

    Johan Neeskens: “I do not intend to vote at all. I didn't do that last time either."

    Willem van Hanegem: “I vote PvdA. But then the most ROGUISH (sic) side.” ('links' = left; 'link' = dangerous/roguish)

    Piet Keizer: “I vote D'66. I like their approach and principles.”

    Johan Cruijff: “I have never participated in it and I will not be there again this year. I've never even thought about voting."

    Frans Fadrhonc (national coach, Czech birth and nationality): “What I vote is my secret. I am on the side of law and order in all issues.”

    Henk Wery: “I vote the Catholic People's Party (KVP). I was raised Roman Catholic.”

    Wim Jansen: “I vote PvdA.”

    Gerrie Mühren: “I'm not going to vote. I know very little about politics and then I don't want to get involved in it."

    Theo Pahlplatz: “I'm not going to vote.”

    Willy Brokamp: “I'm not going to vote. There is no party that can captivate me.”

    Theo de Jong: “I don't know yet whether I'm going to vote.”


    Glossary:

    PvdA = Labour
    D66 = mixture of social liberals and greens (in international context)
    KVP = rightist Catholic force, attained in their heydays North Korean vote percentages.


    As the article notes: With this result there was a turnout of about fifty percent of the internationals. The real turnout on November 29, 1972 was 83.5%. Problem is (imho) though we know now two things: a large group of people make their choice at the last moment; young and less educated people are less inclined to vote.


    From the same website:

    In the run-up to the parliamentary elections of 1972, resulting in the most left wing cabinet in history, a striking number of famous footballers spoke out for a left-wing party. A joint folder of the PvdA, D'66 and PPR (now merged into GreenLeft) was co-signed by Epi Drost of FC Twente, Willem van Hanegem of Feyenoord and Barry Hulshoff of Ajax. “Do as we do,” was their call for progressive politics, “then something will finally change in the country.”

    In the newspapers of November 27, 1972, there was even an advertisement for D'66 on the sports pages with a direct appeal from Hulshoff, Piet Keizer and Feyenoord captain Dick Schneider to vote for that party.


    [​IMG]

    There was a problem with Keizer's call, Het Parool remarked a day later, because he was unable to cast a vote at all: 'The left winger of Ajax failed to prepare the papers in time to authorize someone else to cast a vote on the list of candidates when he prepares for the match against CSKA Sofia in Wassenaar.'

    And so D'66 had at least one vote less than hoped. It got even worse, because the party lost five seats in 1972. The recruitment among the football supporters had therefore not really helped.

    Airtime Political Parties

    The most fanatical football follower of D'66 was Schneider, who in 1973 also participated in a commercial at the Airtime Political Parties, recorded in the Kuip. “You voted D'66,” was the question. “From a social-progressive point of view,” Schneider replied. “Because I think it is unfair how the so-called low class is treated and that many things could be done better.” And he didn't mind the fact that as a top player with a top salary he had to pay a lot of tax.



    Someone like Van Hanegem was in 1982 in his municipality almost elected for Labour as local counselor (a part-time function). He was on an electable place.



    More intriguing remains the less ironed out views of Cruijff but to dwell on that takes it too far.

    It also remains to be seen whether the current crop of footballers show a similar distribution in preferences, but if people are really honest about this, then they will see the situation-as-it-stood around 1970 was in general less 'progressive', in particular the problem of poverty (not that there are no weaker aspects: well known is the issue of the environment that pops up everywhere as a red flag and there is also a complex and technocratic discussion for the wealth distribution, as opposed to income, but also this was without question more unequal in 1970!).

    All these 1972 players were playing in the home league (e.g. Rensenbrink, Mulder not asked), certainly an important piece of context I think.
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #537 PuckVanHeel, Jan 22, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
    I've now read a book called "the Surinamese legion" about the development and history of Surinamese football and footballers (four years later a documentary was made).

    The earliest wave of these footballers were indeed of average or short height (with a few excepions), in the 1950s. Unlike the Gullits and Rijkaards, they were born in Suriname itself. Some of the racism and (corrupt) sabotaging they encountered, here and abroad, was abhorrent. Elinkwijk of Utrecht was at one point for 50% of Surinamese origin. The 'Red' and protestant pillars of society were in general more receptive to them. One thing I didn't know, or was forgotten, is 'ultra-tall' Faas Wilkes had a Surinamese wife (well.. it is on wikipedia too).

    [​IMG]

    Then there was a blank period from the early 1960s to late 1970s mainly because football here transformed from amateur/semi-professional status to full-professional status (and native Suriname didn't). At certain points key players as Cruijff and Israel indicated this was a miss and they'd do this different when they are in charge. At that time of course the kids Rijkaard, Gullit and Vanenburg were already playing organized football and things already moved ahead. Then around 1975, when Suriname became independent (which many in Suriname didn't want - just a few years later there was a coup in which one FIFA vice-president was murdered) there was a spike in immigration - Paramaribo born toddlers Seedorf and Davids were part of this wave.

    [​IMG]

    There was also a technical and formal barrier; according to FIFA rules, even though Suriname was part of the same kingdom, they couldn't play for the national team (unless naturalized, which took at least four years).

    "Abes [Lenstra] status as national football wisdom number one was undisputed, almost regal, and is somewhat comparable with the position Johan Cruijff had decades later.
    [...]
    Question [in 1957]: Say Abe, are Surinamese footballers, who play in the Netherlands, regarded by the KNVB as native or foreign?
    Abe: In the national team, according to the international football rules, it is unfortunately not possible to field players with a Surinamese mark in their passport.[...] For the time being this is a theoretical issue."
    From: J. Mast, Abe - The Biography, page 193 (revised 2020 edition)


    One notable player was the average height Humphrey Mijnals, who was simultaneously also the most celebrated of the first wave. 'By accident', which is a story itself, he played three national team games for Oranje in 1960.


    This 1960 Humphrey Mijnals bicycle kick was world news

    On April 3, 1960 was the legendary bicycle kick of Humphrey Mijnals, the first Surinamese in the Dutch national team. He did that on behalf of the Dutch national team in the Olympic Stadium. The photo then became world news.

    The photographer from Sport- en Sportwereld magazine clicked at just the right time to capture the world's attention. The keeper of the Dutch national team, Frans de Munck, sat on the ground with a stunned look in his eyes. Right in front of him, Humphrey Mijnals hung in the air, horizontal, back to back, in perfect balance, the moment he kicked the ball away. It was in the match against Bulgaria.

    A bicycle kick is now called such a thing. Half a century ago it was still called a "spectacular double staircase", as the sports editors of De Telegraaf described it.

    A historic debut

    With this spectacular action Mijnals underlined his debut in Orange. Since the official start of the Dutch National Team in 1905, no Surinamese had ever been selected for this. His bicycle kick emphasized for many a difference between the Dutch and Surinamese game concept.

    “He was a Brazilian”, as contemporary Hans Kraay Sr. told Other Times in 2001. “We Dutch defenders didn't do that, we couldn't do that. And if we accidentally tried, we would have to be discharged with a hernia.”
    Mijnals' debut was nevertheless received mixedly. The Utrechts Nieuwsblad, for example, found that the Netherlands had not yet seen the true Mijnals at work. Het Vrije Volk, on the other hand, was satisfied: 'The big question was whether Humphrey Mijnals would be able to adapt. He has completely succeeded in this.' And De Volkskrant was even outspoken enthusiastic: 'Dark Humphrey Mijnals has conquered the hearts of the Dutch football people with his sometimes unparalleled improvisations.'
    Elinkwijk
    Mijnals had already played more than forty international matches for Suriname before he was among the Dutch internationals for the first time. It was four years after he had come to the Netherlands, to Elinkwijk, after a first professional adventure in Brazil with his brothers Frank and Stanley and Michael Kruin.
    The first game of Mijnals on a Dutch field was very unpleasant, because Sparta midfielder Hans de Koning immediately kicked him out of the game. On the stretcher, Mijnals heard a supporter shout: "Put a 15 cent stamp on his butt and send him back." And Abe Lenstra was also rude: "Dirty dirty black, go back to your country."

    World famous
    The photo from 1960 became world famous, but until 2001 nobody knew about the moving images – not even Mijnals himself. In the recordings of the Polygoon news, this game moment was cut out. And Sport in Beeld, the predecessor of Studio Sport, also omitted the action in its summary.
    Watch.
    [video]
    In 2001, Andere Tijden found the film recording and showed it to Mijnals for the first time. That's what it looks like.
    [​IMG]

    Mijnals was proclaimed the greatest Surinamese football player of the twentieth century – thus ahead of serial match winners as Ruud Gullit, Clarence Seedorf or Frank Rijkaard. He also received the city medal of Utrecht as a thank you for his services. He passed away in 2019.
    https://sportgeschiedenis.nl/sporte...n-humphrey-mijnals-uit-1960-was-wereldnieuws/
    https://www.anderetijden.nl/aflevering/604/De-omhaal-van-Humphrey-Mijnals


    Whether Lenstra actually said that in this form, is disputed though.

    Show Spoiler
    'Abe a racist? Wouldn't take that statue off its pedestal''

    In discussions on social media in which statues of people from the past are pulled down, the name of Abe Lenstra sometimes comes up. The club icon of SC Heerenveen is said to have been racist in the past.
    According to Surinamese Humphrey Mijnals, Lenstra, who died in 1985, would have said the following to him in 1957 during a match against Elinkwijk: "Dirty dirty black, go back to your country." This can be read in the book 'The Surinamese Legion' by Humberto Tan. According to Mijnals, Lenstra would also have called him a 'monkey'.
    Johann Mast, author of the book 'Abe', wonders if Lenstra really said that. "Unfortunately, we can no longer ask. Abe Lenstra passed away in 1985 and Humphrey Mijnals passed away last year," Mast writes in the Leeuwarder Courant. "In any case, Mijnals later personally watered down the issue in a letter to Abe expert Jan Kuipers."
    Mijnals wrote that Abe barked at him 'Hey, black'. Mijnals countered with 'Hey, big white fat fart', says Mast, who knows that Lenstra became good friends with the dark South African Darius Dhlomo years later. The Fries even taught his teammate to skate with the Enschede Boys. "So Abe a racist? You name it. Is it even wise to judge a 1957 incident with our 2020 view?"
    "That Humprey Mijnals was a magnanimous man is in any case certain. When Abe ended up in a wheelchair, Mijnals was the first to volunteer to play in a benefit match. I wouldn't take that statue off its pedestal just yet."
    https://www.feanonline.nl/abe-een-racist-zou-dat-standbeeld-niet-van-zijn-sokkel-halen/

    That biography also mentions when he entered a wheelchair, he received individual letters from the entire Belgian national team (p. 264), with some players dedicating their music choices to him, and also a letter by Fritz Walter (p. 269), against whom he had regularly scored goals.


    There is a wider (for me sometimes scary) discussion about whether a formal apology has to be made for the entire colonial time (the exclusively left wing council of Amsterdam has done so). One of the issues here is whether the colonialism was equally/more brutal than the contemporaries of Spain in South America, the systematic dismembering policies of Belgium in Congo, Germany in Namibia andsoforth and whether the slave trade share was ever higher than 5%. Foreign state media have a field day with this because it doesn't match with the post-war stereotypical image. For a number of certain specific instances, like the colonial wars in Indonesia, apologies are already made and sometimes decade ago.

    I think there is no objective or factual basis to really place Mijnals among the best (Surinamese) players in history, so when VI listed him among the honorable mentions they're right, but a semi-significant figure nonetheless and the grace on video material is obvious (more so than Lenstra for me). Very often I don't agree with the thoroughly flawed awards and what impression they might give. There was also another Surinam player, the small Marbach, who was on the radar of Real Madrid and he discovered that too late (the book is objective enough to point out Madrid had each year players on their eye; two years later it was Moulijn, who was unable to go too).

    As for Lenstra, I still have a preference for Wilkes and I'm more convinced by his level (it survives so to say the test of 'triangulation' better), but surely a very significant person with notable longevity (although not extraordinary for his time).
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One oddity and 'small world' sort of thing:

    Erwin Koeman was named after Erwin Sparendam, a team-mate of Martin Koeman. Sparendam made the boat journey together with Herman Rijkaard, the father of Frank, in 1957. The semi-professionals trained three times a week.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #539 PuckVanHeel, Mar 5, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
    Funny this. Consecutive home games unbeaten:

    [​IMG]

    The three Dutchmen were starters for their team (Van Dijk, Stam, Robben), the others were not.

    The CIES observatory metric has Van Dijk now as the best player in the world over the past three months, and while that idea is overblown (those sort of players don't play as a defender), he is just taken for granted now.

    Even next to his award winning teammates like Salah or 'I fall once a month to the floor' Ruben Dias (who gets for half the work the same amount of awards).



    I don't think this idea is quite correct. Look at his goal record in Europe or some of his domestic seasons. Look at some compilations and highlights.

    His top speed at 39 years old was measured at 26.7 km/h. While he was slow over the first couple meters, this was less the case over longer distances with his heavy 1.84m body.

    He has to be in the #3 to #9 group.
     
    comme repped this.
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Later I saw this article by the Daily Telegraph, written on monday (the other newspapers and outlets didn't pay attention).

    60 not out: Why Liverpool's Virgil van Dijk is one of Premier League's most influential players ever
    Van Dijk has made Anfield his castle, setting a new record on Saturday for home games unbeaten

    By Chris Bascombe ANFIELD 6 March 2022 • 9:53am

    Virgil van Dijk lost a Premier League game at Anfield once. He was playing for Southampton at the time.
    Mohamed Salah scored twice that day in November 2017, Phillipe Coutinho adding the third on an afternoon when some queried if van Dijk was worth the £75m he would cost Fenway Sports Group a month later.
    Since then, van Dijk has made Anfield history.
    The stadium is his castle now, yet to be breached in the 60 league games he has started since 2018. It’s a reassuring thought for Jurgen Klopp whenever he names his weekly line-up. Pick van Dijk, and the likelihood is he will not lose.
    Liverpool’s narrow win against West Ham on Saturday secured a personal record for the Dutchman, eclipsing ex-Manchester United winger Lee Sharpe’s home run without defeat.
    Van Dijk has not lost many away games, either. With van Dijk, Liverpool have been beaten in just ten games - eight per cent of his 120 Liverpool league appearances. That’s not quite the best statistically - Chelsea’s Arjen Robben only lost four times as a Chelsea player and Jaap Stam five for Manchester United. But they never made it to 80 Premier League games.
    [...]
    Van Dijk’s contribution - just like Peter Schmeichel, Eric Cantona, Dennis Bergkamp, Thierry Henry, Petr Cech, N’Golo Kante, Jamie Vardy, Vincent Kompany and David Silva - goes beyond the obvious judgement that he is an outstanding footballer. All of these players are symbols of an era. They fundamentally changed perceptions of their football club.
    Before Bergkamp and Henry, Arsenal were mocked for being boring. The chant ‘One-nil to the Arsenal’ is now an ironic nod to those days before their Dutch and French makeover.
    Manchester United were dropping goalkeepers in FA Cup final replays before Schmeichel gave Sir Alex Ferguson the security he craved between the posts, while Cantona’s indelible imprint on Premier League and English football culture in the 1990s was worth a book and several documentaries.
    [...]
    “All these situations were, for me, like scoring a goal,” said Klopp. “Inside, it has exactly the same importance for me.”
    For all the regular tributes to Liverpool’s attacking excellence, the foundation stone of their successful trophy quests was laid the day van Dijk made his debut.

    --------------

    This remains classic, a sentiment above article refers to:
    [​IMG]
    (how did those polls appear for other defenders like a Stones, Maguire - or Thiago Silva before he turned 26 and became a recognized 'great' at Milan? a rhetorical question)





    [​IMG]
    https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...-the-Premier-Leagues-most-underrated-defender

    The same Daily Telegraph had also these takes in 2016 and 2017 when ranking the best (worldwide) defenders:

    Van Dijk has been brilliant for Southampton since leaving Scotland, a league he was far too good to have played in for any longer. A Dutch ball-playing defender, Van Dijk is fantastic on the ball and likes to bring play forward on his own, sparking Southampton attacks. Unlike some similar defenders, when under pressure, Van Dijk focuses on safety first and gets the ball away from danger. He has made 262 clearances - only three players have made more this season - and impressively has only been booked twice.

    The type of defender Pep Guardiola thought he was getting when he bought John Stones, someone whose elegance does not come with an ineradicable helping of flakiness. His intelligence and leadership are manifest in the way he organises his colleagues and his poise evident in the timing of his tackles. Brings the ball out and pings it forward with precision in classic Dutch style. Pseuds praise the verticality of his passing but they're the sort of people who do not know enough to come in out of the rain.

    The best defender currently not playing for a team in the top six, Van Dijk could comfortably play at Champions League level - and probably will quite soon if transfer rumours are to believed. And if there is one thing we know for sure, it is that transfer rumours are never wrong.




    (at the end of the 2017-18 season this difference had naturally increased further and Southampton ceased to be a top eight team)
     
  15. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    Hello!
    Can you rank all the players from the Ajax team in the rankings and do you have full rankings for other years?
     

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