https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_title&v=OC9tlZOmWXo https://www.chiesaditotti.com/2019/9/21/20876923/every-assist-totti-ever-made-with-roma https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/01/10/in-celebration-of-alessandro-del-piero/ https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/dispelling-the-del-piero-myth.151739/ ADP just wasn't great enough for long enough to overhaul the fact totti was a significantly better in Serie A for a longer period of time Perhaps ADP only reached a higher peak in a single season (comparisons with prime R9) What comes before and what comes after just isnt out of the ordinary stuff
Maradona played that way, mostly in his italian years as Trequartista (italian #10) and also under Bilardo coaching years, trying to use him the way he's being more comfortable. btw, I guess FF will go for a modern 4-3-3 formation.
Kinda hard for TAA to be a "somebody" when he was introduced into the Klopp system at 19. The story shouldn't be that he was a nobody, because most 19 year old right backs are nobody. The story is he became a UCL finalist at 20, UCL winner at 21 (widely regarded as the best performing RB in the world in 2019) and was part of Liverpool's first league title in 30 years at 22. We'll just have to agree to disagree if you rate TAA as just a "cross merchant".
It's interesting that you mention Del Piero's best matches being a friendly tournament in 1997 & WC semi versus Germany. It actually might be true, but it doesn't say much. Nobody cares about friendlies, Del Piero was poor in every major tournament he played in. The goal he scored versus Germany(which was off a counter started by Totti, btw) is the only memorable thing from him in that tournament(plus the pen versus France in the final). I also thought Totti was the motm in that semi(although I think Pirlo won it). He hardly made a wrong pass all night, even while not fully fit the whole tournament. There is a reason Zoff, Trapattoni, & Lippi all preferred Totti over Del Piero in their lineups. Totti only played 4 major tournaments for Italy, he played well in 3 of them(making team of the tournament in 2) and the 4th he got suspended for 2 of the 3 matches in Euro 2004 for spitting at Christian Poulson. I can't think of a tournament Del Piero played well in? You really can't compare the amount of big moments Totti had in Azzurri shit to Del Piero, and Totti played half as many games. Panenka versus Netherlands? Motm performance in Euro 2000 final? Stoppage goal versus Australia? These are all huge moments. It's a shame he retired after 2006 world cup. Otoh, Del Piero was given so many chances in an Azzurri shirt(too many imo) and could never really deliver in the big matches. You also can't really compare Totti and Del Piero based on numbers and goals for Italy. Firstly, Totti played most of his matches for Italy as a Trequartista. And even when he played as a second striker he in-evidently still dropped further into midfield to start attacks. It's only later in his career after he retired from the Azzurri that he started playing the false 9 role under Spalletti. Del Piero almost always played as one of the two strikers. And his return of 27 goals in 91 games is disappointing when you consider he was supposed to replace Baggio who scored 27 in 56 games. I think you are relying too much on numbers on a page and not on the performances. Ballon d'Or voting is extremely biased towards the bigger clubs. Totti was penalized because he never left Roma. Regarding Totti and Del Piero's goalscoring, it says something that Totti scored more goals in Serie A than Del Piero and goalscoring was not his greatest strength. Totti was the best one touch passer I've ever seen. Del Piero's best seasons were his 1st three for Juve where he was still able to dribble past his opponents. Maybe if that Del Piero never got injured and sustained the form of 95-98 he could be compared to Totti who was at the top for over a decade. But unfortunately that didn't happen.
That's fair (and ideas might change) but think the longevity advantage is sometimes a bit overstated. Del Piero became Serie A topscorer when he was approaching his 34th birthday - goals are not everything but that's doing something right. Was still playing for the national team (even though no certain starter at euro 2008) and doing his thing against Real Madrid in the Champions League (albeit a defensively very weak Real Madrid). At the same age, Totti had stopped playing for the national team for a few years. Totti stopped playing or called up after the age of 29. See here: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/jul/10/worldcup2006.sport2
Put TAA at a team like Barca or Real, he wouldn’t survive. He’s basically a Klopp system player who’s defensively poor and relies a lot on his crossing ability. I don’t care how young he is because technical ability is an innate thing, not something that could be taught. There is nothing technical about TAA besides his crossing ability. It was absurd that you claimed Trent is technically superior to Zanetti which reeks of Premier League fanboyism. Also, he’s definitely not the best RB either which is blatant English media wankfest. Kimmich is way better than someone like TAA as an RB and he’s basically a multi faceted player who’s world class in multiple positions.
See also Football Manager 2008: One of his better attributes is 'influence' (or 'leadership') TAA is evidently less of a defender, more of a footballer, even though he loses the ball a lot (with 75% or lower pass completion). https://sportstar.thehindu.com/foot...undesliga-ligue-1-serie-a/article31211876.ece Last season he had 7.9 inaccurate crosses per game, and 2.0 accurate crosses. 2 accurate delivered corner kicks, and 2.2 inaccurate corner kick deliveries per game. People overstate reality when the crossing gets compared to, say, De Bruyne, but dribbling aside, he's more of a footballer than Zanetti was.
Maybe premature but those fans who are not necessarily EPL fanboys are saying TAA isn't just a really great crosser but in fact one of the greatest crossers of all time As a 22 year old player Here is Garrincha https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2725 Here is luis figo https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4030 Here is Brehme https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5167 And here is Trent Alexander Arnold https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39208 Beckham(99) and dzajic(98) aside who are really outliers in football history Wingbacks are the modern day equivalent of classical wingers with a tiny bit more defensive duties If he had a more cultured foot and could beat his marker TAA would already be considered an ATG contender for fullbacks https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sb...t-alexander-arnold-fullback-assists-liverpool There is nothing innate about technical ability Everything is acquired and learnt No one analyst on planet earth would've said in 1999 that Thierry Henry would've become (arguably) one of the top 10 most complete attackers of all time In fact TH14 said clearly when he was with nicolas anelka at the Clairefontaine anelka was by far the best player at the academy Thierry Henry was less volatile,more hard working and consequently reached a point where no one in their right mind would now say anelka is even remotely comparable The natural/intrinsic quality is a myth that has been busted several times Nobody ever jumped out their mothers womb scoring direct FKs and/Or dribbling past defenders Maybe after a stage there are no drastic developments (25 or 26 years old) But a 21 year old player still has tonnes of time to tactically and technically evolve Its a joke (with due respect to Poet)to say TAA is more skilled/technical As zanetti But maybe his definition of skill is different and not restricted to just silky ball skills and aesthetic value Zanetti was probably one of the best ball carriers in football history that I've seen at least I haven't seen any questionable inclusion so far although I haven't read every post So far so good @PuckVanHeel Maybe the 1990s did not have 1 decade defining player That is also another possibility you haven't entertained
I'm in doubt if Gentile and Bergomi should be classified primarily as lateral or central defenders. Gentile seems me a more characteristic centre-back in modern parameters, even when he played as right-back in Zona Mista. About Bergomi, I've the feeling that is 50%-50% and maybe I tend to see him better as central because of my memories of the 1990's. I think the debate is less with Thuram (or Maldini on the opposite side). Suurbier is an occasional mention in such positional all-time nominations and I struggle to see why. I've the feeling that he's a kind of default name linked to the great Dutch generation of the 1970's, perhaps more reliable than impressive at this level. According to my general impression since 1956 and considering Gentile and Bergomi in the equation after all, I'd have nominated to: Djalma Santos, Carlos Alberto, Vogts, Gentile, Bergomi, Cafu, Thuram, Zanetti, Dani Alves and Lahm. I'd probably consider close to the edge to Kaltz and Gerets and I'd have 2 main questions: first, Leandro, who by skills seems me superior to some of the previously mentioned, but who perhaps is not supported by such a great/successful career for the comparison, and second, Amorós, who perhaps didn't have such an extended prime (not sure about this). I'd also mention Maicon, who I think reached a phenomenal peak for the position, but perhaps didn't trascend enough in general terms.
Of course you struggle! After completely cancelling the goalkeepers now another cancel, as usual. Just as cancelling the millennium players... The reality is though that also in his time he was highlighted. See: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/unofficial-european-ideal-teams-1971-1980.1985633/ It's also not like Vogts was a lot more skillful with the ball and never struggled against the Keegan and Dzajic of this world in prominent matches. At the same time, I believe Suurbier wasn't several tiers better as other 'forgotten' full-backs of the same country.
Maicon always struck me as slightly overhyped by the way. People were surprised to see Bale run circles around him (it won him the PFA vote) but it was always in him. It wasn't suddenly there and pundits knew it. More than Alves in my view. In fairness however, unlike Bergomi, Zanetti and many others flowing around, Maicon received Ballon d'Or votes, and that in more than one year. So that's fine even if my personal impression is a different one. https://fbref.com/en/players/fbc5d136/Maicon-Sisenando
They have annouced that it will be a 3-4-3 when they published the cb's poll (thus, 1 cb only was actually selectable, wich was still surprising even by knowing this because you have the reflex/ are prepared to pick a second one... I have only voted on this one and for the keeper so far I think...but you can re-vote so I don't know how it works exactly... it is cumulated or changed for 1 IP?).
Something close to a defensive masterclass 4 tackles 7 interceptions 10 clearances 5 accurate longballs https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ns-League-2017-2018-Liverpool-Manchester-City Did Dani alves or phillip lahm ever produce a defensive performance of this caliber? He is 21/22 and maybe 10 years from now he would be a undisputed inclusion in a all time England 11
echoing what PDG was saying, for a realistic balance for the team, Zanetti would have been useful in the DM category. The line into wich he played the best too, maybe. ... that's where he played in the European finals with Inter in any case ('97 and 2010). ...RM with 3 cb's in 2002 for Argentina...
That is one of the most ridiculous articles I've ever read. "Totti fails the final test and leaves a tattered international reputation"? What? This was written the day after Totti won a World Cup, having provided the most assists in the entire tournament, playing half fit coming back from an injury. This is the World Cup Final we are talking about. A match that is almost always tight and nervy. How well did Zidane & Henry play that day? I'm not sure what he expected of Totti 3 days after playing 120 minutes of grueling football against Germany. It seems like that article was ready to print before the World Cup even started. Sometimes narratives are hard to overcome even when the facts change.
All in all, this list doesn't seem bad for me, but I do believe that there is a too noticeable absence, Figueroa. It's not surprising, he's usually overlooked/forgotten and I suppose that among the reasons are coming from a not so top national team for history (not even in his own time), the very varied questions that can be established about the level of Uruguayan and Brazilian football and the difficulty of capturing that level in comparison with the competitions in Europe until today. On the other hand, Krol has been classified as left-back, but according to my impression I'd say that he gained even more prominence as sweeper and I'd definitely include him here. I also think it's understandable why Cannavaro's popular rate was better preserved in retrospect (he shone at key moments for the memory of the majority), but I also clearly remember the feeling of a superior Nesta throughout their careers with enormous individual recognition beyond his group numbers. In terms of skills I'd say that Nesta was more unique and was even more consistent despite his untimely injuries. Some time ago I'd have been surprised by Ramos here, but reviewing his career season by season he ends up convincing me at this level over some favorites of mine, like Kohler, for example, and most likely over a legendary name like Santamaría. Regarding the last said about Figueroa, I'd also apply the case of my compatriot, Chumpitaz. For his time he apparently reached the first class of his world generation and what is possible watch him, it seems to me, that proves it, but it's clear that his career in his time is shaping up much more discreet in terms of successes and competition level compared to a triumphant footballer in the first world-class today. According to my general impression since 1956 I'd have nominated to: Moore, Beckenbauer, Figueroa, Krol, Passarella, Scirea, Baresi, Koeman, Nesta and Ramos. Just thinking about defensive skills I'd hesitate to include Koeman over, for example, Desailly, but I think the Dutchman can have a fair nomination thinking about his impact in general (maybe a technical draw for me). Perhaps on the same level I'd support the case of Sammer, although his peak performance was shorter? My first close options would be Santamaría, Chumpitaz, Kohler and Cannavaro, at least the ones that give me the most confidence, although I think I could name Hansen, Förster, Hierro, Blanc, Ferdinand... and many others with similar opportunities according to perspective. In many Spanish-speakers platforms I notice an impressive devotion to Puyol (for some the best centre-back ever... ?), which I suppose it has to do with a combination of factors (including charisma) similar to which Casillas also has a high hype. I previously didn't name Billy Wright because the Ballon d'Or almost started in the middle of his prime, or so I think, but if I'd take him into account, at least I'd have him in the first group near to the edge according to what I've reviewed of him (needless to say, in the first 3 awards he had very high recognition).
Of course he wasn't anywhere near Desailly in the pure marking skills and following his man, but he gets severely underestimated (by folks/cancellers like you). I can understand the sentiment he wasn't the best defender, but he truly managed to stand out in defensive and offensive teams alike. For example: PSV conceded only 3 goals when they won the European Cup, which simply is fantastic (all those legendary Milan backlines never did this when they reached the final!). One of the three goals conceded was a direct free kick, one of them a penalty where he is totally without blame and the third also a penalty fully without blame. Koeman was an integral and important part of that set-up, so in my view he could function very well in defensive minded teams (in what was a Liverpool inspired flat back four), just as that he did fine in offensive teams. Additionally, he did this without picking up a single caution (although after publicly applauding a professional foul, Real Madrid managed to suspend him for three games, just as Gullit got suspended for six games previously, but thanks to lobbying by the Philips Corporation this suspension got cancelled). His disciplinary record was, as always, remarkably good. By foreign match commentators, Koeman was often seen as the main star of the team or at least one of the main stars. Capable of scoring fine goals.
Players like Koeman, Passarella and Figueroa who are known for their attacking attributes are still better than the overrated Sergio Ramos defensively. Sergio Ramos is apparently considered the best defender of this generation by folks from Reddit, Facebook, Twitter and some biased Real Madrid fanboys. Football has come to such a stage that if a defender scores some clutch goals then he’s automatically great defensively. Pique who for me at his peak was a more talented player than Ramos, but never received similar accolades. Van Djik is easily better than Ramos for example and his peak started since 17-18 season. Meaning within 2 seasons, VVD has shown better defending than the so called “Best defender of this generation” by single handedly improving Liverpool’s poor defense and being a crucial player in their 18-19 CL and 19-20 PL win defensively speaking. Ramos is not a generational defender for me and he’s a replaceable player defensively speaking. He doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same breathe as John Terry, Ricardo Carvalho and Carles Puyol, let alone in the same category as Maldini, Beckenbauer, Baresi, Thuram, Desailly, Nesta, Cannavaro, Ruud Krol etc. I pity Pepe because Ramos took all the credit for his defending. He’s arguably one of the most overrated player I’ve watched and the amount of errors he makes is just laughable. I remember Madrid fans bashing this guy for his inconsistent defensive performances prior 3 peat Real Madrid era.
Nominally Guardiola and Redondo were perhaps defensive midfielders, but of course neither were the typical representatives of that. Redondo was just as much a playmaker from deep, with then e.g. Karembeu to protect him, release him free, or previously even Luis Enrique. In a less dynamic way, Guardiola was a playmaker from deep as well, and because he was more static and he was positionally good he was also defensively fine and could do it alone. Between 1996 and 2000 Guardiola received 26 ESM votes, just as Redondo collected all his votes in these years (18 votes). That's indeed a decent tally, albeit Redondo is equal with Deschamps (not included by FF, even if he's French), but behind Vieira and Simeone just for the 1995 to 2000 period alone. Then, both him and Guardiola are behind Effenberg, Davids, Keane, Enrique, Seedorf and Veron just for this period as well.
Pepe was at his old age very good against France a few days ago. He has aged fairly well. No small feat against Mbappe and co. Van Dijk I believe was already good in 2015-16 (see WhoScored where he's top 10 of the league, and the huge difference in win percentage) Here a good Koeman video showing some of his defensive skills and interventions too, as well as a few assists. Yes, I know highlights can be misleading.
Sergio Ramos was the best right back in la liga at 19 years old and by extension already one of the best in the world If we're talking about prodigies VVD is not even in the equation VVD was struggling to break into Groningen's first team at the same age Comparisons to Paolo maldini did not come out of thin air I think most fair minded analysts would agree that whatever defensive frailties he may have (compared to some of those names you mentioned) he is much more of a 'footballer' than VVD The skillset combined with the body of work necessitates that he is included in these types of discussions The passing range is completely beyond your typical defensive player https://www.goal.com/en-india/news/105/main/2008/09/23/878101/debate-sergio-ramos-as-a-right-winger
It's personal taste. I wouldn't say Koeman looked stylish. In his first two full seasons for Groningen (1981 to 1983) they had the 10th best record of the league (57 and 58 goals against). He was mainly playing as defensive midfielder. This was an improvement from the 15th best record (72 goals against) when he only started 17 matches and played 23 games as a 17-18 years old youngster. The league ranking improved from 15th (started 17 games) to 7th and then 5th (in the years before they were a 2nd division team). Then moved to bigger teams at the age of 20. Almost everyone acknowledges Van Dijk is a good defender (they analyse seven goals conceded over and over again and realize he was doing the right thing) but Koeman gets - also in his own country - underestimated. I've already covered the European Cup above, and that they could close the door while evading any cautions (the total opposite from Ramos, Sammer, Materazzi, Cannavaro, even Baresi etc.). It just depended a fair bit on how you want to play (in 1987, 1988 also by far the best defensive record of the league, in the domestic cup, while at the same time scoring/creating a lot himself). In a team like Barcelona, then yes, he could look defensively poor. His Achilles tendon injury of 1990 didn't help either. The opposition aren't closing him down, but this is because they have other assignments and Koeman is a 'defender'.This is from 1992, but it still happens today when a centre-back roams forward - they can often reach the opposition area before being challenged.— James Nalton (@JDNalton) April 1, 2020 Buildup- the CB's spread very wide and the gk passes it to Pep. Two CM's drop near to him giving him passing angles. If they can't progress then they would circulate the ball around until they found a free player. This 3+1 buildup is also used by Pep, Tuchel and Nagelsmann. pic.twitter.com/FFlpX1b72Y— Sahil Dani (@cdsahildani) June 29, 2020 (with video scenes, click thread, it's good) At the same time, he can be replaced by a couple other countryman as well in France Football their thing (there are not ten viable alternatives no, but they exist really).
Thanks for the reply. It's interesting. Yeah, I said myself the 1997 TdF was a glorified friendly, but to be honest, that's what you're going to when neither had really a good major tournament in their career. Most match reports, including that article yes, state he had several passes that went astray and the statistics say the same. He wasn't really bad either, though. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/francesco-totti-2006/ That two of the three moments you highlight are 'just' penalties says already a great deal I'd think. Then Totti doesn't have many, too, or a 'Germany 2006 curler'. Totti was excellent in the euro 2000 final, but really not in any matches before that. Yes, he was selected in the squad of the tournament but things as the OPTA index or the ratings show that. To be fair however, there wasn't the opportunity to shine in the semi final: This makes some sense, and Baggio in a blue shirt was a class apart, but I'd make two qualifiers here: 1) Baggio played overall in an even better Italy team. No, he didn't win the World Cup, but unlike the 2006 batch, they beat big countries in normal time. Things as Elo rating support the perception he was playing for a better team, even though they didn't qualify for euro 1992. 2) Baggio his 27 goals include a few more penalties (three more by my count). Baggio started 45 games while Del Piero started 61. In minutes it is 4098 minutes for Baggio vs 5220 for Del Piero. That reduces the difference. That's unfair. Like I said, I've seen a number of performances against the bigger teams in the league or outside the league. This is just the league. Include the numbers outside the league and ADP is well ahead. Which is logical given him playing four Champions League finals (only Maldini, VdS and Seedorf had more). Furthermore, he is also ahead in goals (and assists) against the top teams in the league, but yes, it's easier to do this for a bigger team. At the same time, he wasn't always the final stage of the attacks, the sole focal point, the man the rest of the team was revolving around. Just something on those assists: they came against Ukraine, a declining Czech Republic and Ghana. Not against the big teams. Two of the four assists were really just long range attempts. See here and here. Another was after a quasi corner-kick situation (two Italian players in the corner, doing with they have rehearsed for corner kicks, Totti swings it in). And the fourth was a corner kick, too. This might sound as nitpicking, but neither of the four were his typical open play assists. Two of them were even for long range attempts, hardly the merit of Totti himself. It's similar to how this has gone down as an assist. Zidane played reasonably well in the 2006 World Cup final; remember that header for the save? Henry indeed was far below his best level and famously didn't connect well with Zidane and Zidane's passing. That's how things go. This regularly happens, but remember Totti made the least metres of anyone in that semi final. He was also a substitute against USA and Australia, and taken off after an hour against Ghana.