So here my structured comments for the second midfielder category. Mentioned alternatives: Boban, Savicevic, Sekularac, Stojkovic, Netzer, Giresse, Scholes, Sneijder, Kempes, Riquelme, Kaka, Valderrama. I've seen on this board sometimes question marks about Francescoli (@Ariaga II) and Hagi, but although their choices weren't always fortunate outside their own country or continent, I think with diversity factored in and the whole career arc they are justified choices. Carlito mixed some things up a bit (sorry) but he was on point about how good Hagi for Steaua already was at continental level (excellent 1988-89 European Cup production) and also for the national team, outplaying some of the most famous number tens. Everything considered I've no complaints about these two guys really. I've more doubts about Kubala and Socrates, and would replace Totti with Del Piero for reasons I've previously expressed (the vast difference in national team goals, EC goals etc.). Del Piero his BdO record is convincingly a lot better as well, but Totti is a bit like the 'Gerrard of Italy' I guess and of course he could score. Both Hagi and Francescoli are more convincing at continental level for me, and also national team level (and no, it is not only WC '94). Personally I'd replace Sneijder with Bergkamp too, someone who also registered in their original vote in his own time. ESM is different, although still better than most of his contemporaries in the same sort of playing position (Baggio, Zola etc.) with the exception of Cantona who is a small amount of votes ahead. My idea is roughly this, and this behind spoilers Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Personally I named Roberto Baggio the player of the 1990s because of his peak form for club and country and symbolic value (thanks to aggressive marketing by IMG) - I prefer a five years window - but how can there be a debate for longevity? Let's also not pretend Bergkamp had no effective skill. See this pass, or this skill, or this sublime skill (12:55) against Manchester United. Games for a major club: 730+ for Bergkamp vs less than 330 for Baggio Games at a major tournament: 25 for Bergkamp, 16 for Baggio Continental finals: 6 for Bergkamp, 3 for Baggio (3 wins vs 1 win) Major honors: 13 for Bergkamp, 4 for Baggio Minor honors: 5 for Bergkamp, 0 for Baggio National team semi finals: 3 for Bergkamp, 2 for Baggio (with one final) Goals and assists against elite teams at major tournaments: 6 for Bergkamp, 2 for Baggio Domestic player of the year honors: 3 for Bergkamp, 1 for Baggio (Bergkamp also PFA shortlisted for 1999 by the way, topped OPTA Index for the attackers; player of the month material as late as 2004) Ballon d'Or: proportionally, with changing voter pools, Bergkamp wins clearly (both 6 times nominated) ESM votes: 18 vs 11 in favor of Bergkamp Career goals: 300+ for Bergkamp (less than 25 penalties), less than 320 goals for Baggio (113+ penalties) Major topscorer honors: 5 for Bergkamp, 1 for Baggio Assists: Bergkamp probably ahead; also in Serie A (Bergkamp 9 seasons with 10+ assists, Baggio three seasons). Bergkamp has only very few set piece assists (source: Aaron Nielsen) and about as many pre-assists in his Premier League career. Influence and impact on teams: Bergkamp miles better, more influential. For Baggio the win percentage is higher without him, for Bergkamp (also in Serie A) it is the opposite. That at - on average - for bigger teams. Champions League man of the match candidate: at least 10+ games for The Iceman versus 2 at best for Baggio. Both first got to play there when they were 29 years old. Etcetera.... Major omissions are difficult to comment on right now because it's unknown who they select for the wingers or forwards. It's well possible they will select Ronaldinho and/or Rivaldo as a winger, for example and Cruijff certainly will be in I can decipher from the text (but really don't think his average position in the team was higher up than e.g. Zico or he did defensively less). I have the most doubts about Kubala, Socrates and Totti, really. The rest feels worthy of such position, including Mazzola for me.
Yes, it was him. It's also in the description below the video. I understand the numbering might be confusing and then also with players ending up at an unusual field position. That Jesper Olsen look-a-like you talked about was Rob de Wit (video). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_de_Wit_(footballer) "It’s also worth outlining the unusual situation in Holland and Belgium, where defenders are numbered completely differently to every other major footballing nation: traditionally, they are simply numbered 2-3-4-5 across the defence. The most unusual aspect of this is clearly the No 5 playing left-back, although it’s also strange to witness a No 3 as a right-sided centre-back. The likes of Jaap Stam, Toby Alderweireld and now Joel Veltman have worn that number for Ajax over the years — all of them capable of playing right-back rather than left-back." Anyway, I don't want to bring this thread off-tangent but thought this was a nice gem (on youtube now also the disastrous and famous 'cruijff plays injured for milan' game has appeared, playing with Baresi there). edit: two of the three Johan players to ever appear for the national team, since the national team exists, were playing for Groningen that day.
Wasn’t Pele more of a forward than an offensive midfielder? He shouldn’t be in that list. Kubala is more of a striker as well. France football as usual with their incompetence. By this logic, then Cruyff is missing in that list.
Yeah, Van Tiggelen's pass didn't lead to a goal actually I reminded myself when I saw it again (Erwin Koeman put that one past the post but scored later on), but thanks for the tip by PM to see below the video description on the Youtube page (I'd only watched it on here originally). The list of names appears to have Van Tiggelen 3rd and Neeskens 4th for Groningen I saw, but I realise it's the other way round and the number 3 on Neeskens' shirt is clear when he plays that pass for the opening goal. Yeah, I realised Vanenberg was playing of course but without having paid attention to when the match was even, let alone studied the line-up, I had wondered if that run down the left was by Olsen at first glance (but did suspect it wasn't too anyway).
It surprises me a Non-Juve supporter, I assume, has this view regarding Totti/Del Piero. In fact, you might be the first I've heard say this. Having watched both of their careers in their entirety there is no comparison, Totti was superior in every facet except club titles. But winning titles for Juve is so much easier than winning titles for Roma. I was surprised however they included Totti over Kaka, considering Kaka won a Balon d'Or and Totti never came close(unjustifiably imo). But over the course of their careers it was the right decision. Unfortunately, France Football didn't make the same decision with putting Cannavaro over Nesta. It's clear Cannavaro made the list off his WC 2006 performance earning the Balon d'Or. And lastly, Javier Zanetti is severely underrated. I would argue he was on the same level as Cafu during his career. He should have definitely made the list over Thuram, who was a much better central defender than right back.
Oh yes, I completely forgot about Zanetti! Unlike many wingbacks, he was actually a very good defender as well (although he was also nowhere near as good as the Alves of this world, with the ball at his feet). I still remember his performances against Messi, as a LB, in the 2010 UCL tie. Personally, I agree about Thuram. His peak was probably as an RCB. I think he is too attached to his role as RB for the national team for most people though.
I agree Zanetti would have been a worthy inclusion, and a fitting name for the top 10. In longevity he wins of course bonus points. He is possibly hurt though by him rarely talked up as one of the best three/five full-backs (right sided or overall) in the world. Hence he was only nominated once for the Ballon d'Or, in 1996 among the 50 nominations, with no further votes. All those other modern full-backs in their list received votes in their own award. I'll get back on ADP later.
Baggio had 4 seasons with 10 or more league assists http://soccer-europe.com/Biographies/Roberto_Baggio.html Was baggios dribbling so great that we'd have to overlook the overwhelming statistical advantage in favour of bergkamp? I dont think so The flip side(counter argument)could be It is all very well talking about bergkamps league production but it is not exactly a like for like comparison Baggio played the entirety of his prime in Serie A the universally recognised elite league of his era When bergkamp played there he could not hold a candle His performances were actually so terrible that Italian newspaper la republicca renamed their section 'donkey of the week' into 'bergkamp of the week' Even when Baggio was not the focal point anymore,played out of position as a winger,injury ridden and regularly subbed He still scored for inter Milan 98/99 5 goals+10 assists in 23 league appearances https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/07/27/in-celebration-of-roberto-baggio/ Bergkamp never exceeded 3 non penalty league goals in Serie A Even Sergio Battistini a defender could do that It was a real disaster experience all over The season before Bergkamp joined, inter 92/93 finished runners up to Milan in Serie A with the joint 2nd best scoring record in the league In 93/94 they finished 1 point above the relegation zone The lows of Bergkamp(In his prime)are arguably the worse of any generational great The highs were admittedly super high Its enough to say Bergkamp beat Romario(a top 50 all timer?) twice to Eredivise MVP It would be unfair IMO to entirely dismiss bergkamps league achievements purely on the basis of his faliure in Serie A But everything has its place(In a partial analysis) Highs and lows
Let's pick out your first sentence again; I said "10+ assists" - without the qualifier they had to be from open play (which is actually favorable to Baggio his case). According to that link you use, he has two seasons, not four. Compare. You've also missed that I myself picked out Baggio as the premier 1990s player, and I didn't question his place among this 'dream team' thing. I will not go into the rest of your, sometimes factfree, sometimes on point, post. edit: not redo again the discussion on the Inter period and the with/without record, the production and penalties won against Milan/Juve, the UEFA Cup win and topscorer, the inconsistencies etc.
Pretty sure Pele played a false 9/advanced attacking midfielder type of role. That explains his goals and his playmaking. The thing with Pele is that he’s stated to be a complete footballer positionally and ability wise. Heard some stories that he’s a genius in all positions, but besides his national team matches and few club football match footages that exists, it’s difficult to back up that statement. Even Bella Kona which is a good YT channel for Pele’s clips doesn’t have anything regarding him playing in different positions. Pele is nevertheless a mythical figure in football tbh besides my grandad telling me he’s the best player he saw. Then Cruyff said something like he’s the only footballer who surpassed the boundaries of logic.
Most take-ons in a single UCL match: • 2020: Neymar vs. Atalanta (16) • 2008: Messi vs. Man United (16) • 2003: Zanetti vs. Dynamo Kiev (16) pic.twitter.com/4RQvbRD9L0— ESPN FC (@ESPNFC) August 12, 2020 "....Upon closer inspection of his performances, it becomes starkly clear that in many ways Zanetti was the most complete full back of his generation. A huge claim perhaps but he was arguably the most complete flank defender since the likes of Manuel Amoros, Carlos Alberto and Giacinto Facchetti - capable of defending and attacking in equal measure, but also a huge influence on the midfield battle and the build up play of his side. He was also a leader, an icon of his club and it was a great shame that Argentina did not recognise these qualities in Zanetti - treating him as a versatile bit-part servant rather than one of their crown jewels like he deserved. What made him so complete? well firstly he was a great physical specimen, quick, agile, strong and possessing endless endurance. He was an excellent ball carrier, capable of chipping in with the odd goal, capable of holding the midfield, inter-playing with his midfielders by coming in off the flanks, as well as going round the outside, a solid crosser, very difficult to get past as well as being very aggressive and successful in pressing/ball-winning high up the pitch situations. Which begs the question...what did he lack? well the non-existent International career does count against him in the mental attributes as does not leaving Inter all those years where they were never a threat in Europe - which arguably demonstrated a man who whilst he was loyal, lacked that ruthless edge and ambition to be the best of all time. From a skill-set point of view, he lacked the panache and effortlessness of a Carlos Alberto and having reviewed matches of him facing top tier opponents such as Ryan Giggs - Zanetti was at times caught out, he didn't quite have the exceptional defensive reading of the game that the likes of Djalma or Carlos Alberto had. In summary, Zanetti was a 'master' of the full-back art, and deserves to be recognised as a superior footballer to the likes of Thuram and Cafu. He possessed a vast range of skills, and the only thing which remains a black mark on his career and holds him back from being rated even higher was an international career which never really got off the ground despite him winning an incredible 143 caps for the Albiceste." https://www.pythagorasinboots.com/javier-zanetti-rating/ As a corroborating source https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5838 The technique(85) is higher as Thuram,dani alves And many many others
Yes, I've already made that claim that unlike other wingbacks, he was also very good defensively, which makes him very well rounded. However, regarding just the technical use of the ball, Zanetti is very much inferior to these players. He was a very good dribbler (even PES community has it as his best technical attribute) but look at how his other skills were described "chipping in with the odd goal" and "solid crosser". Dani Alves, at his peak, was an actual playmaker in the role of a wingback. TAA has been putting up ridiculous numbers in the past couple of seasons, although that is definitely partially due to how good Liverpool has been as a team, and not just TAA himself.
You're right, I'm not a Juve supporter. By and large, this region has 'always' been Milan territory with various high profile 'experts' of Italian football (e.g. Emile Schelvis, David Endt) being open about their Internazionale sympathies - they don't hide it. Schelvis presented the 'Studio Italia' show in the early 90s and it really showed (this was the Milan with the Three Tulips and the Inter with Matthaus, Klinsmann and Brehme; similarly, there is a commentator called De Vos who cheered for Atletico and against PSV when they went toe-to-toe in a match). I immediately believe you have a more complete picture as me for Totti and Del Piero their entire careers, and I've often changed some ideas as the years passed by. My perception is inevitably skewed by the Champions League matches, the major Italian national team matches (the de facto ConFed Cup of 1997; the 2006 semi final) and the bigger league matches. For example, the team to beat for most of Totti's career was Juventus. His record is there 4 non-penalty goals in 40+ games or so (I see some slightly conflicting numbers at a quick glance); if I'm not mistaken - might be wrong - half of these four came from a free kick situation (in how many attempts in so many years?). I know it isn't only about goals but in general there is something missing. Then when there is a chance to finally win something with the club, he just doesn't play (2008 Coppa Italia final; the third and last trophy at club level), or he gets send off in a truly stupid brainfart (2010 Coppa Italia final). While I fully agree titles are not everything, that colors my impression. What I don't think though, is that I'm the 'first to say this'. In a few countries Totti has divided opinions. Not just me, not just in my bubble. Here his numbers (note: 71 of the 235 goals are penalties) In terms of facet of the game, Totti was obviously the better passer as well as some other things. Del Piero was the better dribbler, although he had some dark ages in his career too. Around the turn of the millennium was a low point, then later on being benched by Ibra and co (starting only 17 of the 38 matches). To turn it around however: Del Piero came back strong three times to an elite level. In 2002-03 and then again in 2007-08 (even though he 'robbed' team-mate Trezeguet of the topscorer title). He came back from the 'football death' three times. The most important aspect of all was though that ADP was much more of a team player, capable of playing in a team format and structure, and was maybe only at the very end (2011-12; starting just 4 league matches, playing 23, completing 0 games) reduced to a token and luxury player. A living embodiment of new things to come. Totti arguably played for a few years too long as well. While it is much easier to rack up the Champions League numbers and win things with Juventus, I agree, Del Piero his national team numbers are better as well. Not marginally, not by 50%, not with a complete different team or set-up either, but by a factor three (without penalties too, per my info). He has three times as many goals, both have only three tournament goals, but Del Piero has naturally more moments against the real elite teams (in 1997, even though a glorified friendly tournament perhaps, and also 2006). More to the point for this thread are though are France Football their own Ballon d'Or finishes. Totti: 2000 Roma - 14th 2001 Roma - 5th 2003 Roma - 18th 2007 Roma - 10th Nominated in 2002, 2004. 87 points in total. Del Piero: 1995 Juventus - 4th 1996 Juventus - 4th 1997 Juventus - 20th 1998 Juventus - 16th 2002 Juventus - 10th 2003 Juventus - 13th Nominated in 2001. 161 points in total. (2008 would've been a more appropriate nomination imho, but apparently FF had their written reasons why they did not) Again, not marginal, not by 50%, but by a factor two or three. In later years the voter pool expanded, I know, but that doesn't work in Del Piero his favor. Playing for Juventus is certainly an advantage, but again, you might maybe expect more than one UEFA Cup quarter final and two CL quarter finals (AS Roma not exactly complete paupers; at the least in 2002, 2003, 2008, 2009 ranked just inside the top 10 richest clubs by Deloitte). Thus, going by France Football their own vote, Del Piero is the more logical choice in my view.
Ignoring the good level of N'Kono during his career, I suppose that his inclusion should only correspond to having an African representative and giving an impression of globality. I assume from all the nominations that this special award takes into account only the period since the first Ballon d'Or (1956), but it was not so clear for me if they excludes non-European who could not access this award at their times. It became clear to me once I saw nominations like Pelé in next categories. In various circles, especially Spanish-speaking, I'm really surprised by the hype that Casillas has. For many, he seems to be the best goalkeeper in history with a certain security that I find difficult to understand, although I think he's a fair candidate for a nominated list of 10 under the parameters. According to my general impression, I'd have nominated to: Yashin, Banks, Zoff, Shilton, Fillol, Schmeichel, Kahn, Buffon, Casillas and Neuer, and my main question would be the inclusion and instead of who of Maier (with minor doubts about Carrizo, Mazurkiewicz and Dasayev). I've always wondered if there are circles in Europe that consider Beara capable of entering this level, although it must be difficult to determine.
I'll log out now for the day but my view really is that Casillas and Kahn don't have the necessary longevity for an absolute top 10 position. The more so with other countrymen already in and there needs to be a bit of diversity when there's similar merit. In terms of absolute quality the differences between top goalkeepers have been relatively small, notwithstanding advances in the field, so that makes longevity a discriminating factor. N'Kono as mentioned was as mentioned good enough to be seen in his time, and the highlights look rather good, but either way you slice it he wasn't among the top three/five in his generation. Of his own era you have Shilton, Preud'homme, Zenga, Southall andsoforth. Perhaps also Higuita as someone with similar merit. I know all about the default inclinations and feelings but VdS really does belong here as a viable nomination. Also compared to a Dasaev, Mazurkiewicz. He's still behind Buffon the goalkeeper with the most ESM selections (three behind), which excludes his first two strong seasons (1993-1995) and with a lot more to back it up as well, for example the CL clean sheets and goals conceded ratio or having seasons with both the most saves of anyone and the most clean sheets of anyone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Football_Elo_Ratings#Highest_average_ratings_since_1970 https://www.21stclub.com/2020/09/03/the-foundations-of-a-strong-league/
Those two are way flashier. Similarly by the way, it was not only Zanetti defending well against Barcelona. Also, Chivu, Eto'o and Sneijder were stealing balls from the star players. Zanetti was only once nominated for the BdO and never received a vote. Was not talked up as the best right back around. But there is always a second chance 20 odd years later... (and yes, I do think he is an appropriate name for this and FF overlooked to have a representative from his country).
I second all of this. While BdO-votes could be a statistical anomaly, particularly with DMs, having recently gone through all the 90s WS-issues, I can confirm the likes of Guardiola and Redondo got precious little hype compared to their modern reputation. In terms of ESM-votes they actually did decently, but they definitely belong among the "retirement overhypes" crew. On the other side of the coin, I'm missing Robson (over Gerrard, at least), Bremner and Rattin.
Lol Zanetti is far better than TAA technically and will always be. You don’t have to be on Alves level in order to be considered great technically. Is Neymar terrible technically because he’s inferior to Maradona and Messi? Zanetti in fact was known for his technical ability and being a complete fullback who can be deployed as a midfielder due to his technical skills. This is just PL bias, mate. TAA was absolutely a nobody until Klopp brought him in his system and is hyped so much because he’s English. Just because he’s a cross merchant doesn’t make him more technical than Zanetti.
The article posted by Carlito, explained well Pele's role. I personally labeled as Trequartista. But, if you asked me to chose between an AM or CF. I have no doubt to place him as AM more than a #9. Because, Pele always played behind 2 or 3 forwards. More viable options between those two extremes AM/CF are: - Central AM in a 4-2-3-1 - SS in 4-4-2 - Side forward in a 4-3-3
I think, FF said nothing about how the're nominating players. But, I guess is under their rules, I mean: - Players since 1956 are eligible. - Until 1995, only european players are eligible. - Since 1995, every players competing in european leagues. - Exceptions are made for Legendary players (Pele, Didi, etc.) So these criteria, exclude most prewar players (Sindelar, Scarone, etc) and SA footballers who don't played in Europe (Moreno, Carrizo, etc.)
The catch is here that Baggio, Francescoli, Kubala, Puskas, Schiaffino, Socrates, Totti and Zico are also in this category. One weakness is it isn't known who they place in the remaining three categories. They might place Overath among the wingers, or even Del Piero there. Controversial maybe, but you can argue Maradona was generally the 2nd most advanced (sometimes most advanced) player of his team until 1987, with after that point him often playing behind two forwards. To get the raw numbers correct and verified: ADP has exactly three times as many national team goals as Totti. In the same era, in the same team basically. 9 goals vs 27. Both have three goals at tournaments, but Totti did it with penalties and ADP against harder opponents in a harder stage. ADP has 54 continental goals, including four in the qualifiers and one in the Intertoto Cup. 42 goals came in the Champions League. Six of the 42 are penalties. Totti has 38 continental goals, with 10 goals in the qualifiers. 17 goals in the Champions League, of which four are penalties. Though it's true it is perhaps easier to score for Juventus, and it is not only about goals. Conversely, you need to have a sense for team tactics to maintain yourself, and that's what ADP did, while other gifted Italian forwards didn't maintain themselves at Juve. Regardless, seen from FF their own BdO vote, ADP is a more logical choice. Not marginally better in the BdO vote, or even by 50% better in the vote, but by a factor two or three.