Victims of a Campaign- The Other Footy Teams Thread

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by GunneRy, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. super gooner

    super gooner Member

    Arsenal
    England
    Sep 20, 2020
    I didn't watch the United match at the time, and normally I'd laugh at them having a player sent off, but I've just seen the match on MOTD , it looks to me that the spurs player brandished an arm at Martial before he was slightly tapped, then went down pole-axed. What a cheat.
     
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  2. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    they do a better job in rugby?
     
  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    It's not even close.

    In Rugby the ref is mic-ed up and will place a specific referral to the video referee so the audience knows what is being looked at. The VAR review then appears on TV for the audience and on the big screen for the players and crowd.

    The VAR then announces what he can see and can't see and discusses with the ref who then makes a ruling.

    Also - where the VAR spots something in backplay, he can will come on the audio feed at the next break in play - this is common for dirty play.

    One of the biggest issue with football VAR is you can't hear the conversation between the VAR and the Ref, and also can''t see what VAR is looking at.

    Also the idea of jogging off to look at a screen pitch side? My god how crap is that for TV action?
     
  4. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah I agree. A draw would've been peachy. But in this case +3PTS and +5GD to them, does just not sit comfortably.
     
  5. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #24505 NorthBank, Oct 5, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
    Since few of us watch Rugby, perhaps you could post a youtube clip of a well-handled, exemplar VAR decision that you can recall?

    As for the use of pitchside monitors, I am fully on-board with that. It drove me nuts last year how each stadium was outfitted but the HR would almost never use them. (as per the directive that came down)

    I've watched pitchside monitors be used in both MLS (for years) and now in the brand new EPL season (since they've just changed their directive and encouraged their usage more). And I think their usage often speeds up the ultimate decision, by allowing the HR to see it with his own eyes.

    In short pitchside monitors are a net plus, and not the other way around.
     
  6. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    oh, shit. that's awesome.

    i don't mind looking at the screen pitch side but i want to know what you're looking at and what you're discussing if you can't see that lamela smacked martial's face first.
     
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  7. ArsenalTexan3

    ArsenalTexan3 Member

    Arsenal
    Sep 24, 2002
    Jakarta
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Night and day difference especially if you are watching on TV.

    This. Plus it is a good way to learn more about the laws of the game.

    Here are some VAR use in Rugby videos.







    What Match of the Day said
     
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  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    The pitchside monitors and off camera reviews are what cause the feeling of arbitrariness

    Rugby (and cricket) succeed by involving the audience actively in the process.

    In other words, the video ref reveals the "truth" to the referee and the audience at the same time, and then they discuss what they are looking at so the audience can hear it.

    This avoids the issue we are commonly seeing in football where for some reason an aspect of the video appears to be ignored, and a decision reached with no explanation/justification - leaving the commentary team & pundits to speculate

    Then the Lamela thing can't happen - because we would hear why they decided to let that go

    Also - to be more cynical, it prevents them simply "overlooking" stuff - they have to justify.
     
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  9. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    The ref can see the action on big screen. Excluding the crowd from the video review is a huge part of the problem - and just in terms of drama is very very stupid because you have 50-60K people completely in the dark about what is happening.

    Then you wonder why they don't buy into the process.
     
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  10. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    i sort of agree and not. the problem, for me, is not (or would not be) with pitchside monitor review itself. it is the lack of transparency. in fact, i would want the on pitch referee to confer with the VAR official and come to an agreement rather than have the VAR official be the final arbiter. all they would have to do is make the discussion available (to the crowd, real-time) much as they do (in the above videos) when the VAR official is communicating with the on-field official.

    as you said, it would prevent the lamela situation because they would need to justify WHY they decide to overlook his action instead of being able to hide behind the curtain and let the FA and union brush it off later (when there is nothing to do because the game has already been affected).

    having video referee reveal the truth to the on-field referee and the audience at the same time is better theatre but, for me, is not necessarily better or worse than allowing the on-field referee to also be a part of the decision process and also be able to review the video while doing so.

    they also need to make the video referee simply a part of the crew, in my opinion. they currently run what looks like a 4-person crew, to me: primary referee, 2 sidelines, and the 4th officials separating the two sides. make the video referee the 5th person in the crew instead of 1 single video referee reviewing every single game for the day. there is no way they can keep concentration that long. the game is a billion dollar industry, they can damn well afford to hire some extra referees.
     
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  11. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #24511 daedalus, Oct 6, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
    holy shit, that is great. also, holy shit X 2, it is great to see those players (with one exception in video 1) accept the decision and move on (even if/when they were unhappy with it). that is gold.

    damn. 2nd one was great, too. referee thought he saw something and took the consideration of the video referee into account. fucking awesome.

    what does TMO stand for?
     
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  12. super gooner

    super gooner Member

    Arsenal
    England
    Sep 20, 2020
    You rarely see rugby players aruguing with the ref. Often the ref is shouting up to them as they stand there with the huge muscles and bulk and they just take it. I once went on a RU course to coach under 11's, the guy leading it said how he used to ref a rugby match in the morning and all the kids and parents would just accept the results, then the same kids playing football in the afternoon used to dive and argue back with him, including the parents. It's a cultural difference and it can be changed. Refs just have to agree to be tough with the players and take the flack for a while, the players would get used to it. Apparently all those United players were surrounding the ref as he viewed that after whistle penalty, he should have straight red-carded the lot of them, it would soon stop.
     
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  13. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    so fucking great.

    yeah, i noticed the referees in the 1st video telling people to stand back and also that he does not need to hear from the yapping player. absolutely agree that referee just need to be consistent about not accepting such behavior and it would stop.
     
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  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    This is something I never understood about football

    The abuse and foul language can be stopped overnight, if the refs are given power to enforce.
     
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  15. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    they need to do it as a group. not just one throwing a tantrum when in the mood. and for all teams and not just, "all of you except for manchester united must follow the rule".
     
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  16. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Rugby is a middle class game football is not

    u won’t ever get that tespect
     
  17. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I have to say living in the UK has given me a new appreciation for British football. I don't think I really got the culture, and it explains a lot about the sorts of players who make it and don't.
     
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  18. Bluto11

    Bluto11 The sky is falling!

    May 16, 2003
    Chicago, IL
    I read some quote some where that paraphrased was "Rugby is a thug's sport played by gentlemen and Football is a gentlemen's sport played by thugs."
     
  19. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This.

    Our discussion of pitchside monitors is really a technicality, i.e. technical deliver issue. The most important thing is for the HR to see the same replays as the VR is seeing. Ultimately it's the HR's decision with the VR's input/advice.

    So the method by which the HR sees the same video evidence is not of critical importance. If I was in charge of their systems I would make the replays go to a pitchside monitor as well as to the big screens. But the former would seem to be a better method for the HR, while the latter is obviously the only good way to show it to fans.

    Lastly, I watched the beginning of the Youtube clips above, and as much the transparency of the HR/VR dialogue is awesome, I was struck at how long they delayed the action to come to a decision. In the middle video the delay was 2'30" or longer. That's a LONG time (I thought too long in this case). And maybe more disruptive in football than in rugby where interruptions in play are more common and built-in.

    Whatever the process is, there has to be a constant focus on being quick and efficient in the decisions. That is hard, especially when something major hangs in the balance, like a sending-off or a title on the line. But it's critical I think to minimize the stoppages, if we're going to try to preserve one of the salient features of football over time... its relative free-flowing-ness.
     
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  20. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a great anecdote. And I can totally believe it. As we're learning with Covid-19 rules, people's behavior can be so illogically inconsistent, to use a couple of nicer words.
     
  21. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    R
    Rugby referees do have the power to stop abuse and foul language, but I think there is a cathartic element to it too. If you are upset about a referees decision, you can always go out and run into someone, legally, when play resumes.
     
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  22. super gooner

    super gooner Member

    Arsenal
    England
    Sep 20, 2020
    Then run the risk of getting put in the sin bin. Maybe they should have punch bags dotted around the football playing field for aggrieved players to take a swipe at.
     
  23. Shen-O

    Shen-O Member+

    United States
    Jul 26, 2005
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Give refs in football the ability to elbow mfers without recourse....that will stop it
     
  24. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I did say legally as in a legal tackle or joining a legal loose ruck. Personally, I liked bouncing off would be tacklers.
     
  25. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    the other thing, too, that i thought was cool was the on-field referee making a point to say thank you to the video referee at the end of their discussion. that was neat.
     
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