We've covered this but you insist unfortunately Figos peak was his last campaign for Barcelona and his first for los Blancos In la liga+CL combined in those seasons Figo scored 23 non pen goals + 46 assists 7922 minutes 0.77 goal+assist per 90 Barcelona 99/00 and real Madrid 00/01 scored a combined total of 231 goals in those competitions Figo was directly involved in 30% of his teams goals https://fbref.com/en/players/f20f347f/Luis-Figo https://www.transfermarkt.com/luis-...99&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id= In la liga+CL 15/16 and 16/17 (Neymars best according to whoscored ) He had 38 non pen goals+45 assists 7226 miniutes 1.03 non pen goal+assist per 90 In la liga+CL 15/16 and 16/17 Barcelona scored 276 goals Neymar was directly involved in 30% Identical Rivaldos prime being ahead of player X is totally irrelevant Neymar has accumulated more world class seasons that's why he is very arguably superior to Figo Not Because his prime was better Neymar is now 2 levels ahead of Figo LMAO!!! Its not enough for you that's hes probably as productive and more consistent Now hes two tiers ahead!!! Figo was the greatest Winger of his generation Neymar is the greatest Wide player of his (players below 30) About Rivaldo Neymar never had a master season from beginning till end like Rivaldo 1998/99 Carrying his team in many games in a top tier league against top tier opponents If he is greater again in has to do with the fact Rivaldo gained recognition pretty late joining deportivo at 24 years old and fading into obscurity at 30 years old(post 2002 world cup) So he was on the radar as a top player 5-6 years max At his best we're just talking about a single year 1999 Rivaldo was crazy especially at league level even though he had some great games in the champions league Rivaldo was complete Left from strike from anywhere Acrobatic goals Scored a multitude of Solo goals Freekicks Playmaking (even though he had a reputation as a soloist he had reallt great vision) Even if rivaldo wasn't a all time specialist in any of those categories he was world class in ALL And he was clutch for god sake Like how many times this guy save his team at crucial moments You know R9 scored 15 world cup goals(every body knows this) In 1998 he scored 4 WC goals(1 pen) rivaldo assisted R9s 1st WC goal against Morroco in 1998 0.08 Assisted his 2nd goal vs chile And the opener in the SF vs Holland in 1998 All of R9s goals directly assisted by 1 player Each one left R9 in a 1vs1 situation and he never missed from there Again in tokyo
1:23 that assist was crazy The 2 rebound assists vs Germany in the final 6 of R9s 14 open play world cup goals were assisted by Rivaldo Neymar never had till this day a master season at international or club level To make Neymar top 50 portions of seasons have to be combined The first half of this The first third There is no defined peak All great players had defined peaks where they were dominant for the duration of a campaign Whether that is the duration of a league campaign or champions league or a rare combination of both Neymar is probably a top 50 all timer but by far the least convincing one We talk about del piero and we talk about the period in the late 90s where he was the most dominant champions league performer on planet earth Rivaldo had a great WC in 98 A legendary la liga performance in 98/99 A world class performance in the 99 copa America (was top scorer and MVP) And some good/great champions league performances in between This is a 12-18 month period That is a defined peak No portions here and there to create a makeshift all time great I mean i like Neymar but the deeper i look into it he is very much a product of his time He literally would not complete 1 full season in the defensive era of the PL 2004-2009 Or in Serie A(80s-first half 2000s) Im not even sure Neymar if could adapt his playing style to endure the harshness of those times(for forwards especially) Doing sombreros on roy Keane would maybe work once second time hed be in a coffin Tony Adams Jaap Stam Vidic These guys were elite defenders with a mean streak Even those lesser talented ones for mid table teams had to go home and watch MOTD with their kids How do they explain to their kids that 65 kg man was taking the piss performing sombreros and rainbow flicks on them Unfortunately tropiero doesn't understand the culture of competitive leagues As much as Neymar is a product of his time Tropiero is very much part of the recent trend of chart generated analysts Sofascore Whoscored xG xA =objective truth Maybe But the way you interpret that data is entirely subjective Graphs are devoid of context AND can only be interpreted by those who understand context
Neymar damaged his carrer when he was out of Santos to make a secundary role to Messi (and then Suarez) at Barcelona. Neymar was a complete attacker (right, left, center, midfielder, attacker, pretty much a free role) at Santos with ~60% Goal contribution to a much more static wide left midfielder/forward at Barcelona (Suarez and Messi with free roles) with ~40% Goal contribution (he had a significant better numbers being the focal point of the team, it is not like Messi was increasing Neymar's number, but the opposite) and at PSG he is around 40-45%, but he is more a attacking midfielder at PSG than a complete attacker he was at Santos. Figo in the weaker Portuguese League (yes, it is weaker than Brazilian league) was nonwhere close to Neymar's Santos carrer and he had two-seasons peak at age 28 or 29 doing the same thing he did at Sporting (no positional adaptation required, he played the same way back at Sporting). He declined a lot since then being a wasteful Galático and ended at Inter with somewhat mediocre numbers. Rivaldo is somewhat closer and he was consistent from 1993-1994 to 2001-2002, but put Neymar as a reference in that Barcelona and he would carry Barcelona still more imo. You know I could do as you did and try to collect games that Neymar played and that Messi was not playing for Barcelona and take the average according to whoscored. I don't doubt that he was on a phenomenal level. Also people think Neymar was bad for the Brazilian NT and that is not true, he is the man who pretty much is carrying Brazil since 2012, 2013 with Confederation and Olympics title won, both in Brazil (Brazil's reputation in Brazil is not that good). The way Neymar is judged is unfair and doesn't take into account the role and the context and takes into account his extra-pitch behaviour or his antics, but I've seen many people talking about how Hazard was better than Neymar in the last world cup with Neymar out of form and with this figure: https://fbref.com/pt/matches/6fa6550c/Brazil-Belgium-2018Julho6-FIFA-World-Cup See his npxG, his xA, his touches on the ball, distance progressed with passes or dribbles, his shot-creation actions in that match vs Hazard's number... all are very superior, and in a normal circunstance he would generate at least 1 assist. I understand the point Neymar is not Pelé or probably never had the potential to be, and he is not fit all the time (struggling with injuries etc), but I still think he is underrated by the overall level of play. He rarely put a bad performance with no impact at all, in the PSG he was bad or had no significant impact in less than 10% of matches he played imo, someone could say he was bad in like 3-5 matches out of 80 he played. PSG is for French league the same thing Guardiola's Barcelona was to Spanish league. Now you as a portuguese would prefer for a 10-year time a Neymar-level of player in your NT or a Figo-level of player? Tell the truth.
xG difference per 90, per match 2017/18 PSG: 1.46 (2º behind Manchester City) 2018/19 PSG: 1.43 (3° behind Bayern and City) 2019/20 PSG: 1.82 (1º) That is PSG in Neymar's era. Data from Statsbomb. Barcelona with Messi in (better would be Barcelona all matches, but Statsbomb only had it in that way free, but realize that Barcelona scored goals in the same rate without Messi and Messi most often overperform his xG), 2008-12. 2008/9: xG difference 2.62 - 0.68 2009/10: xG difference 2.09 - 0.85 2010/11: xG difference: 2.2 - 0.75 2011/12: xG difference: 2.53 - 0.8 Is it much different than PSG's dominance in Ligue 1? It is not like Arsenal xG difference in the 2003/4 season https://twitter.com/slothfulwave612
Expected Goals For and Against taking into account the conditions that the shots were taken and conceded. Good teams create good opportunities and give few good opportunities to their opponents.
In games without messi(the closest neymar was as a main reference for Barcelona) Including league+champions league only 23 goals+10 assists in 1709 minutes 1.73 goal+assist per 90 This is just a quick breakdown of neymars input in those games missed by Lionel messi 3 goals+4 assists against bate borisov 15/16 and celtic 13/14(3rd rate CL teams) 4 goals+1 assist against 18th place rayo vallencano 15/16(relegated) 1 goal against getafe 15/16 (relegated) 2 goals against sporting gijon 16/17 (relegated) 1 goal against Celta Vigo 16/17(relegated) 1 goal against granada 16/17 (relegated) 12 goals+ 6 assists against relegated la liga teams or 3rd rate CL teams 1709 minutes(19 games) is just way to small a sample size to definitively claim neymar could replicate messis output over a sustained period of time He is not durable and he is not consistent throughout a season He is like a flickering lightbulb Sometimes shining very bright in spurts other times just very dim I mean if i wanted to i could make Rivaldo look like better than R9 96/97 by cherrypicking matches from 3-4 seasons that he played without important players in his team In la liga+ CL games played by rivaldo between 98/99 to 00/01 without Patrick Kluivert Rivaldo scored 22 goals+7 assists 2141 minutes(23.7 matches) 1.22 goal+assist per 90 In la liga+CL games played by Cristiano Ronaldo without ozil between 2010/11 to 2012/13 15 goals+3 assists 828 minutes(9 matches) 1.95 goal+assist per 90 In la liga+CL games played by Cristiano Ronaldo without karim benzema From 2009/10 to 2014/15 57 goals+16 assists 3834 minutes(42.6 games) 1.71 goal+assist per 90 Prime Cristiano Ronaldo without karim benzema(40+ game sample size) scored+assisted at a higher rate then prime pele Prime Cristiano without ozil scored+assisted at a higher rate than messi with xavi Prime Rivaldo 98-01 The attacking midfielder playing without kluirvert Scored+assisted at a higher rate then R9 96/97 I can make pedro based on a sample size 1500 minutes look better than luis figo Fact is neymar could never in his life touch this over a 30+ game campaign That's why he is a makeshift all time great
Why do you two take every thread completely off topic? What does any of this have to do with this year’s Ballon d’Or?
What is this nonsense? Cristiano Ronaldo was always the focal point of the team at scoring Goals with Ozil (overrated imo) with Benzema and without these guys. Neymar was not, he was the third option to score goals for the role he had and the area he dominated. That's why you comparasion doesn't make any sense. It is borderline stupid. Without Messi, Neymar had much more responsability at scoring goals and he was into dangerous areas much more, being the focal point of the team. Still 1.73 is higher than 1.22 Rivaldo's figure and Neymar was probably much more complete than Cristiano was without Benzema (1.71) as well. So we can say he also scored or assisted more than peak Pelé as well or Messi with Xavi (your argument) R9 numbers aren't that impressive to be honest, 34 Goals + 9 Assists in the Spanish League, it is inferior to Romário's 30 Goals + 14 Assists. The impressive about R9 is that he one a kind of one-man team and not so dependent to others services. He is probably the best 9 to create shots by himself, would be cool if I had the complete statsbomb information about this season (shot-creation action and goal-creation action via dribbles) I wouldn't be surprise if R9 was ranked higher than peak Messi in terms of dribbles leading to a shot for example. Of course he would be much more dangerous now, since the team are taking shots for better positions, more easy to score goals. In fact Barcelona R9 alongside 2009-12 Messi would be the most lethal combination in the last 25 years in terms of dribbling and goalscoring. Btw, Barcelona averaged 2.51 Goals in La Liga 96/97 with R9 playing and only 2.06 with Rivaldo playing in in La Liga 97/98; Rivaldo's peak. (Barcelona with Romário playing in La Liga 93-94, 2.42). Of all this to agree that Neymar is better than Rivaldo.
I agree with almost everything you wrote here, but , IIRC , la liga 96/97 had 22 teams instead of the 20. Still , its clear R9 presence had a big effect on Barcelona numbers. On Neymar , its funny how he was a bit overrated in ballon d'or ranking in his early years and now he has became a bit overlooked , probably as a result of injuries + annoying character. If I had to choose between R10, Rivaldo and him for my team , Neymar would be my choice.
For the first time since its creation in 1956, the Ballon d'Or election will not take place this year. Would it be a good idea if the members of this forum chose our particular "Ballon d'Or"? We could simulate the way they do it in France Football ... It's just a proposal ...
Today France Football have announced there won't be a Ballon d'Or for 2020. https://www.francefootball.fr/news/Il-n-y-aura-pas-de-ballon-d-or-france-football-en-2020/1153942 What an utterly stupid decision and their reasons behind it are incredibly grandiose as well.
Absolutely stupid, just because the French Authorities jumped the gun and cancelled their league far to early and it basically punishes all the players who have played well this season when. Lets hope the UEFA award and FIFA award actually happen.
It's just the same as I thought, Comme. Do it in the original way and accompanied by a comment with the reasons for the vote. In order for there to be no changes of vote based on the rest of the voting, it would be convenient to set a specific day and time where each person could send their vote, after which they would be revealed at the same time. In my opinion, I would even discard a previous list of candidates.
Breakdown of the Ballon d'Or per year (it misses some years which I have) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...8vvswf74K2PuA-arVu5HiGEFq_8/edit#gid=44369554 The big countries didn't like Cruijff particularly, that's for sure. If it was up to them he had won zero awards. Add in the increased (cultural) dominance of the big leagues and it decreases the odds to win a Ballon d'Or.
The question is the following: What date do we propose to begin voting? In my humble opinion, we should set a time interval wide enough so that our vote can be clarified based on possible events important enough during these first months of competition of the 2020-21 season. Maybe between December 1 and 21? Since the idea came from a post of mine, I would not mind receiving the votes by private messages, with the commitment on my part, not to publish them until we decide the date to do so. Once again, excuse my ignorance of the English language and many thanks to G ..... le Translator.
Carrying on re Ballon d'or theme, 2021 may not be much better than 2020... are France Football going to cancel 2021 edition too? Or just reverse their ridiculous decision to cancel 2020 given things will be very different for potential a significant amount of time. Are FIFA doing their award this year? Rummenigge seemed to say they were but not heard anything since.