Yeah, Giovinco and Keane were MLS superstars. I don't think they were superstars in Europe. You're spot on although I think it may vary by country. In general an English fan of a lower division club wouldn't follow the Premier League because one day his team may play there. They'd either follow their local team or the Premier League. They're more likely to follow the Premier League because of the saturation coverage, or maybe because there's a nice highlights show on a Saturday night that means you don't have to sit through a whole game. In Italy people who follow a small local team will also follow a Serie A team because they're more fashionable. At least that's what I've been told. Why should someone in Diddly Squatville watch a MLS team? Because of a hook. It couldn't be anything. Your grandfather was born in Cincinnati, or you went to school just outside Sacramento, or something else. Why do people who've never been to college follow NCAA teams? In my case I started following Portland in 2014 after seeing videos of their fans on YouTube. That got me interested in MLS. A few months later NYCFC made their debut at Yankee Stadium.
Merseyside and Mancunian derbies are events. Just because people watch the Kentucky Derby or The Grand National doesn't make them horse racing fans. Liverpool vs. Man City in November was the third most watched live match in Premier League history with 3.36 million viewers. That's just 5.7% of the population of England and Wales or one quarter of Sky Sports UK subscribers.
Now I agree with this completely. My argument, short of being the best, what are those hooks going to be? The NCAA point is a good one, but I'm not sure how relevant it is to MLS (maybe!). I'd say college fandom runs down like this: State representation: I live in Grand Rapids, so Go Wolverines. Family alum: I live in Winston Salem and went to UNCG, but my parents met at UGA. Go Dawgs. Family loyalty: my family is from Nebraska, but we live in (somewhere outside Nebraska, but I feel is culturally inferior). Go Huskers. Competitive dominance: Roll Tide/Go 'Canes Maybe you're right that in a generation or two, MLS will be passed down and spread to the hinterlands that way. I certainly can't predict that and will admit that I'm skeptical, unless of course, MLS is among the top leagues in the world.
But the people we're referring to are horse racing fans. This is like saying that a horse racing fan "doesn't give a shit" about the Triple Crown because their favorite jockey isn't riding in it.
Because of Bury being ejected from the Football League, only one team would have been relegated this year. I think that still should be the case. Even if none go down, Barrow - presumably - would still be promoted. And speaking of Bury, good luck on this one! https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...season-scrapped-annulled-Steve-Dale-exclusive
If my team were permanently excluded from the Premier League, I have little doubt my interest in that league would be diminished. And it's not just about the hope of ones team being promoted to it, it's interest in who is moving in the opposite direction.
People are mainly interested in Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City and Chelsea, with Tottenham and Leicester on the fringes. Pro/rel has little to do with what attracts them to the Premier League. The relegation battle is a nice end of season distraction.
The issue at hand was interest in the Premier League by fans of teams lower down the pyramid and how it would be affected by the removal of pro/rel. Are you claiming that fans of teams who would become permanently locked out of it would maintain the same interest level in the Premier League? If so, I would disagree quite strongly with that assertion.
Just in case you did not know, Liga MX is supending pro/rel for 5 years (which will eventualy be forever). There was some social media uprage the day it was announced, but after 2 months nobody bats an eye. *note: players in second division made a formal complaint to FIFA and they basically said -it´s not our problem- so, so much for "we must do x because FIFA requires/encourages x"
When Reading are fighting for promotion their attendances increase, when Reading are in the Premier League their attendances increase, its the same pattern for all football clubs, the fans quite obviously DO care about getting promoted, they so obviously DO care if they get relegated, I know, I live here AND have been promoted AND relegated. You can argue until you are blue in the face but it won't change the fact that pro/rel improves the product enormously. Does the US need to implement it? No of course not, it might not even be a good thing for US football right now, but would pro/rel improve the product of US football? Absolutely, there is an 'intensity' missing from the game that simply doesn't exist without the 'pain' of going down or the wonderful 'joy' of going up. I want you to answer me ONE question if you wouldn't mind - in the mid 1980's my club, Chelsea were having a 'rough patch' in their history, they avoided relegation to the THIRD tier of English football on goal difference, the following year they won promotion back to the top flight after 5 seasons, the question is - if Chelsea were destined to be a second tier club forever would my 'football journey' have been more or less exciting in the 35 seasons that have followed? If you think it would have been 'more' exciting please tell me why?
They may be 'interested' in Man City now but that is only thanks to pro/rel, I don't think people had as much intereset in Man City a few years ago when they were in the third tier of English football. So pro/rel has EVERYTHING to do with what has attracted them to Man City. Who know what club people will be 'interested' in in another 10 years time.
People would still bat an eye, but it's like something bigger and beyond soccer has taken precedence. When actually playing soccer again is relevant (outside Germany and South Korea), let's see how many eyes are batting. It's worth noting that multiple teams in the Ascenco are owned by Liga MX owners (and multiple Liga MX clubs are owned by 3 owners, who also own Ascenso clubs). Even if FIFA wanted to get involved (which they wouldn't), I'm not sure what they would have been able to do anyway. Anyone expecting FIFA to uphold any principle besides " grab as much money as possible " is a moron and should be ignored immediately.
How many people do you think started watching Man City because they had been promoted from League One (the FL Second Division as was) and how many because they're one of the richest and most successful clubs in the world? How many of their global fanbase remember Shaun "Kun Aguero" Goater and Paul Dickov banging in the goals against the likes of Wycombe Wanderers and Colchester United, under the sophisticated tutelage of Joe Royle? If City had for some reason been locked out of the Premier League, Mansour would have invested his money somewhere else.
The thing about that attendance argument, though: as has been shown in multiple countries, empirically the big attendance bump from promotion doesn't typically happen until the club actually starts playing in the higher division. There is somewhat higher attendance when a club is contending for promotion, but most of the attendance increase takes place the next season. For most people the interest doesn't come from the possibility of moving up, it comes from actually playing games in the top division against famous opponents. This is true both in pro/rel countries and in the US where clubs usually play at least one full season while preparing to move up. (By the way, if watching prospective opponents was important, there would be a bump in MLS viewing in cities whose USL club was slated to move up. There isn't one, until the club is actually playing in MLS. Thing is, most fans are too busy following their club's current season to think much about next season's opponents.)
Hypothetically if there was no pro/rel Man City would never have been relegated. They have the 6th highest number of points in the English top-flight and the 6th highest number of FA Cup final appearances. And no-one is suggesting fans of particular teams don't care about pro/rel.
I looked at this a number of years ago and I did see an increase in fans in promotion years. So just curious where you got the numbers from would be interested in reading that.
Trouble is who do you leave out? Leeds? Derby? Sunderland? Spurs? N. Forest? Southampton? Manchester United? Everton? With the exception of (I think) Arsenal every Premier league club has been a lower league club at some point. Nobody thought much of Leeds United until the late 60's, a club that was one of the biggest in the land at the time but (currently) doesn't register much outside of Yorkshire.
Exactly my point! It's only because Manchester City had promotion open to them that they now garner interest around the world. So the assumption that people are only interested in Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea or Man City is because (currently) they are the club's at the top. 10 years ago more people outside the UK supported Leeds United than Manchester City, in 10 years time who knows, it might be the same again, it's not Man City that made the Premier League popular but rather it's the Premier League that Made Man City popular, Man City can thank promotion for the position they're in today.
Yes all those teams were relegated and promoted but how many have the global visibility and pull of Man City? I'm just saying people aren't watching Man City because of pro/rel, they're watching them because of $$$. A team that is winning will attract more paying customers than when they're losing. That happens in MLS and NFL and MLB too. For instance, the Toronto Blue Jays averaged 21,607 in 2019 compared to 41,878 in 2016, the last time they made the playoffs. Promotion certainly helps and the prospect of fending off relegation over the last few games can result in a few bumper attendances. Global interest in Man City didn't begin with promotion in 2002, it goes back to Thaksin Shinawatra in 2007 and Sheikh Mansour in 2008. Man City were always known as the Manchester club in contrast to Man United's country-wide and international reach.
Let's do a thought exercise...suppose the Shiekh is just a huge oasis fan, or fancies that special shade of blue, whatever, and - with a closed english system - dumps cash into ManCity - brings in top coaches, players etc. They threepeat the 2nd division, make deep if not trophy winning FA/League cup runs, but can never enter the prem because United has the "d1 territory license" or whatever. People going to watch them because of their money? Let's extend it - the Emirates have a big ruling class, let's say he gets all his Shiekh friends together and they "build a better mousetrap" and the 2nd division regularly holds it own in the cups - people going to pivot to watching/attending more Sheikh division games? Or will we hear "well the prem teams don't take the cups seriously, they have UCL/Thursday league concerns..." (yes, there's a huge cultural component I'm not addressing, it's a thought exercise to cast light on our system)
No-one would pour that sort of money into a club perennially assigned to a lower division. But Man City are a top English club which, like Chelsea, fell on hard times under a crappy owner. If, hypothetically, there was no pro-rel, they would never have been relegated in the first place. But pro-rel is not the reason they became this massive global club. CFG owns a majority stake in 6 clubs, 3 of which play in leagues with no pro-rel. I'm not arguing that a closed league is better than an open one but Man City's current global popularity has nothing to do with the fact that England has an open pyramid.
In the 50 years before the money started rolling in , they were relegated six times. That's hardly the hallmark of a "top English club".
They have the 5th highest number of trophies, the 6th highest number of top- flight points and are ranked #6 using a coefficient I can't link to on Wikipedia. They're probably in the top 6 for all-time average attendances. Former chairman Peter Swales was an idiot and his successor was just as bad.