Women's Equal Pay Suit Dismissed At Summary Judgement

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Jazzy Altidore, May 1, 2020.

  1. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Sep 2, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The claim is that the Men’s national team was economically and illegally favored over the Women’s by their common employer. That’s the relevance.
     
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  2. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Guess who's aiming for a tell-all book?
     
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  3. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Sep 2, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Supposedly Grant never played soccer in his life or even was a fan of the game, but he had the sense to write an early Beckham book. That's how we got our number 1 soccer journalist.
     
  4. Spartak

    Spartak Member

    Nov 6, 1999
    Philly
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He had become SI's number 1 soccer guy before the Beckham book. He started mainly as a college basketball reporter for SI. But the competition as a college basketball reporter is harder in this country than being the only soccer guy at SI. He chose the road less travelled and it was probably the right career choice to move full time to soccer. Most readers of SI were not very soccer knowledgeable at the time which made Wahl the perfect fit. His stories never told any real fan of soccer anything didn't already know.
     
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  5. Bajoro

    Bajoro Member+

    Sep 10, 2000
    The Inland Empire
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kinda like how my 89-yr-old mom started watching sports about 10 years ago. Now she's an expert in football and basketball.
     
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  6. Three and Three

    Three and Three Member+

    Sep 13, 2015
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Or the Nam vet bus driver for my high school tennis team who, after showing on his first day that he didn't dig carting around preppie and lace-curtain nerds, ended up insisting that our third singles player - a human backboard - serve and volley a bit more and that we should alter our doubles combinations. He liked my off-speed wide serve from the deuce court and told me to use it more frequently. "Establish that and you'll end up hitting between 4-6 aces down the middle."
     
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  7. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Sep 2, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The women filed an early appeal on Friday. Typically you can’t appeal a final judgement on one claim while you have other claims pending absent extraordinary circumstances. In any normal case you’d see this type of action denied by the Ninth Circuit so I’d expect that here but you never know with such a high profile case.
     
  8. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Why are there different brackets for chess? Do the grumpy old men not want to play against ladies? There's just absolutely no good reason for this. I'd expect the women to demand to play in any tournament that exists.

    That's asinine --crackhead asinine-- for many reasons. No way she said that. She has to know she cannot even hope to succeed against the players Messi succeeds against, even if given the chance. Do you have a link?

    Anyhow, I was in a play decades ago. My folks loved it, and my other relatives loved it. I was on a senior class film crew in HS. My class loved the film. Our film would not have done as well at the box office as Jaws did. Entertainment works that way.
     
  9. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looked for that quote but found the opposite. Good to know as it would be crazy for any other player male or female other than Ronaldo to claim they're as good or better than Messi.

    A reminder that she is described as the 'female Messi', with whom she has often shared the stage at award ceremonies, sparks a confident response.

    'I'm obviously a very different player,' says Lloyd. 'Messi's in a league of his own. But when you look at my overall game, I have a completeness to it. If it requires a bit of finesse, I can do that. If it requires a little bit of a physical battle, I can handle that.
     
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  10. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    She's the equivalent to Messi in the sense that they were both at the top of their respective games, as recognized with the Ballon d'Ors they received. But that underscores the issue: being the best men's player and best women's player are vastly different challenges, as the women's game is contested by far fewer high-level competitors.
     
  11. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. I don't make the rules, I'm just saying how it is. From what I recall from the stories that I've heard on NPR (because there was a recent tourney in Iran, which had some controversies associated with it) and chess streams, the reason that they have a female chess bracket is to promote female chess players by providing them a separate ladder that helps them make money and be a professional.

    At any one time, there are usually 1-3 women in the Top 100 chess players in the world. So, I imagine the thinking is, instead of being the 73rd best chess player, you could be the top "Women's Champion" and maybe win enough Women's tournaments to do professional chess full time.

    2. I cannot for the life of me find it, but I swear she said it in an interview. Maybe I've gotten my wires crossed, but I could've sworn that the back-and-forth was essentially that she was the best Women's player in the world, and Messi is the best Men's player, so she should be compensated the same. And I agree that it's crackhead asinine, but it's an easy argument to make if you'd like me to walk you through it.

    Here is an example of the thought process that arrives at such a conclusion:
    1. Men and women playing soccer are doing the same work.
    2. Men and women doing the same work should be paid equally for their work.
    3. Therefore, if society were fair and focussed on equal outcomes, then the top male and top female athletes in international soccer should make the same money

    Or, indeed, the USWNT often augments step three with:
    3A. Men are unfairly compensated because women have been locked out of soccer for a long time, therefore women deserve more money than the market is willing to give them in order to address this inequality and bring about an equal outcome.

    I don't happen to agree with these lines of reasoning, but here we are.
     
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  12. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    The biggest issue that I have with this women's team is that they complain about the market inequality but their solution was to sue after they won a world cup. They don't really want equality. They want the best of both worlds. They want the current level of competition and they want the prize money of the most competitive world cup in human history.

    If they really were doing this for all women players they would have sued in French courts before the world cup to force FIFA to pay equal money. They didn't because that would mean that the other countries would get serious about WoSo.
     
  13. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They also didn't because FIFA would tell them to take a hike? Women's soccer to FIFA is a corporate social responsibility/charity project to take people's eyes off their massive Swiss bank accounts and rampant corruption.

    "Hey, you're sending a World Cup to a shady country like Qatar, with more slaves than citizens!"

    "Oh, don't mind that, we're so progressive here at FIFA, we have a tournament specifically for women! Look, there's a woman with pink hair who's playing soccer! Crazy! If only they wore more revealing clothing... Ah well!"

    There are a handful of nations that spend much of anything on their Women's teams, and all of the smaller teams have bare-bones programs, if they have them at all. Jamaica fund-raised their way to WCQ in the USA, and were given free accommodations from (IIRC) FCD. And that's one of the teams that qualified with a comparatively solvent men's team, let alone a Federation that would struggle to cobble together a squad of either gender!
     
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  14. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  15. Bajoro

    Bajoro Member+

    Sep 10, 2000
    The Inland Empire
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And right after, as if to mock him, the shorts started getting longer and baggier. :ROFLMAO:
     
  16. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    If FIFA is taken to court in the European Union they can't just say "take a hike". Precisely because of the easily documented issues in Europe and France the case would be advantageous. Women's soccer was banned by the English and French associations from the 20's to the 70's. I'm sure that there would be incredible amounts of evidence that FIFA is historically sexist and still continues that way.
     
  17. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sure it would not play out like that, otherwise FIFA would've been sued decades ago.
     
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  18. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I think there are other more nefarious reasons why players don't often sue FIFA in court. Lack of cause or odds of success is not one of them.
     
  19. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think that nebulous "historical oppression" is a strong enough argument to enforce pay equality on multi-billion-dollar multinational industries.

    Would not FIBA (basketball) need to follow suit? Rulings that would be that significant have wide-reaching consequences.

    Frankly, I think it's a nonsense pipe-dream.
     
  20. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Nebulous? There are very specific facts. Again, France, England and Brazil all prohibited women's participation until the 70's. FIBA? Never. The first FIFA WWC was in 1991. Sixty years after the first MWC. The first FIBA WWC was in 1953. Two years after the first FIBA MWC.

    Absolute rock solid facts of misogyny that still affects the game today.
     
  21. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #146 gunnerfan7, May 19, 2020
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
    It's "nebulous" because you are trying to extract money in the present for other people being denied opportunities in the past.

    What's more, I'll bet that the payments for winning the associated tournaments for FIBA are not the same. I can't find any numbers on it, but the FIBA men's tournament has doubled from 16 to 32 teams, while the women's tournament has stayed at 12, and I can't imagine FIBA is leaving money on the table.

    We know that the winnings are unequal for the PGA vs LPGA. For NBA vs WNBA. Absolute rock-solid pay inequality across the sports world. Yet it has never been successfully challenged. Why?

    The fact that people have been banned from participation has not resulted in the sorts of slam-dunk cases that you are describing. You don't think that it's because the legal arguments are unconvincing, but instead because of backroom dealings?

    Title IX was implemented in limited scope with this sort of argumentation, but nothing such as what is being suggested has been done with FIFA or other international sporting bodies. I'll concede, it might be simply because it's extremely difficult, and there is a lot of inertia to overcome, but I think it's because of current interpretations of equal protection laws.
     
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  22. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I think you are misreading my post. I never said slam-dunk. I said better than the current suit which had zilch chance. Even better, it's much more moral a stance.
     
  23. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that they're both zero chance. You said that FIFA can't tell them to take a hike. I think they can. Whether that's because of the weakness of the legal argument, or the inability for the courts to overcome inertia/enforce that ruling, take your pick.

    It's widely accepted that it's immoral to deny opportunities to people because of prejudices. That is not what is being asked. What's not widely accepted is the idea of taking money in the present and giving it to individuals in the present who are not the people who were denied opportunities.

    I throw a rock at your house and break a window, I can be held liable for your window damages, and pay you for your window. This is easy to understand.

    Making some guy in another city pay some other guy named "deejay" because I broke your window 50 years ago? Now it's less understandable.

    So, no, I don't think that having a more moral stance improves the legal argument at all.
     
  24. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    When is the last time FIFA and morals shook hands?
     
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  25. Bajoro

    Bajoro Member+

    Sep 10, 2000
    The Inland Empire
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Discrimination and inequity suck. The only way to end them is not not have gender-based teams at all. No USMNT, no USWNT, just one united USNT.

    The women who can make that team should get equal pay, without a doubt.
     

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