Please stop. I’m not a Klinsmann fan but comparing a home game at Mexico and a road game at Costa Rica with the other 8 games is simply not apples to apples. the part that’s BS is any claim that he didn’t have a structural preference for MLS. He said what he would do and then he did it. And then we failed to qualify.
I'm saying that Arena's team performed better and got better results than Klinsmann's in 2018 qualifying: Klinsmann lost to Guatemala (a much worse team than T&T at the time) and Mexico and got blown out by Costa Rica. Arena tied Mexico, lost to CR and T&T. Arena also defeated Jamaica at home to win the Gold Cup, which Jurgen did not do. Arena had higher peaks and his lows weren't as low (losing to Guatemala away and Jamaica at home are, respectively, worse than losing to T&T).
You know that Croatia went to the final with a temporary replacement dude, right? Bruce Arena was the worst decision. We needed a fresh coach but not a rehash. And we are still stuck with Arena as coach with Gregg Berhalter in charge.
Arena had a better record and better performances against the exact same teams Jurgen played. It's not about "being a fan" of either man, but addressing your insistence that Arena selected a poorer team due to his biases. If so, he coached them to better results than Jurgen did with his team. Actually he said he'd continue with the same core of players as Jurgen did, and he mostly did. Who are the players who were purged and replaced with MLS players?
Wowsers this is some kinda logic. Arena started at 6th place out of 6 teams, and finished 5th. Job....done. Karl Malone has more total points than Jordan = Malone superior player. Eli Manning more TD passes than Montana = Eli better player. Nobody wanted Klinsy by that point anyhow, so not sure why the comparison to the time when everyone outside USSF (and likely inside too) wanted him gone. How was Brucie's Hex compared to 2014? Wouldn't that be a more appropriate comparison? Arena's failure, in my opinion, was worse than any other coach has managed in US soccer. Sure, Klinsy did him no favors with that start, but he still had 6 games against T&T, Honduras, and Panama.
the percentage of MLS players increased dramatically from Klinsmann and then to the interim. math is math. losing to Costa Rica at home and losing to an already eliminated C team for TNT were terrible results. Losing to Mexico at home was bad but they are the best opponent we face in the Hex and it’s not particularly close. Klinsmann should not have been brought back but comparing his two disappointing games to arena’s simply by record is not apples to apples.
That's nice. What was discussed is whether or not Arena selected an inferior team due to his bias for MLS players. Arena's team had better results and performances than Jurgen's, yet still failed to qualify for the World Cup. To compare Arena's 2018 Hex to Jurgen's 2014 Hex: Arena '18 / Klinsmann '14 GP: 8 / 10 W-L-D: 3-3-2 / 7-1-2 GF: 17 / 15 GA: 7 / 8 GD: +10 / +7
Yet, I don't see a single number in this post. How much did the percentage of MLS players on the roster increase under Arena? Also, what type of variance would you consider "dramatic"? For example, I would state that the number of foreign-born dual nationals "dramatically" increased during Jurgen Klinsmann's tenure. Comparing rosters from WC 2010 (where the USA took the fewest MLS players since the league began) to WC 2014, the % of foreign-born players on the roster went from 0% to 30.43%, a third of the team. They were terrible results, but pretty on par for a team that had lost to Mexico (H), Jamaica (H), Panama (H) and Guatemala (A). I'm not arguing that Arena got great results, but it is fiction to say that Arena's team performed worse than one that lost to all of these teams due to MLS players. At worst, you could say he was as bad as Klinsmann.
That's nice, but you compared Arena's performance against Hex doormats (of which he made us one) vs. Klinsy against the 2 best nations (and Guatemala) when he had completely lost the team. Arena's tremendous 1.5 points/game, vs. Klinsy's 2.2 (and...ya know...WC qualification). Love those GD stats others have used to say our offense wasn't the problem, even though it was 10 goals in 2 games, which completely illegitimizes any use to be gained from it. In the last 8 games of the 2018 Hex, Mexico had 14 goals for, 6 against, for a GD of +8. Looks like Arena's team was better than Mexico too!!!
MLS representation went from about 40% (consistent with prior coaches) to 67%, off the top of my head. ignoring a b1 player because “there are players in MLS who play that position” is the perfect anti-aphorism for Arena. If your premise is that Klinsmann lost because he called in bad players - I strongly disagree. He simply lost the room with his verbal diarrhea schtick and made a huge mistake (that Arena continued) of building around Bradley even as Mike lost his edge (potentially due to injury) while playing in MLS as Jurgen warned. He didn’t listen to himself.
Arena had better results against the same teams: Mexico, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Panama. The exception was T&T; but Jurgen lost to an even worse team (Guatemala). The GD only shows Arena had to score more to overcome the blowout loss to Costa Rica.
So he had better results against 4 Hex teams, but got less points per game and missed the WC? You don't overcome a blowout loss simply by getting 1 blowout win. Helps sweeten that GD you like, but 1-0 against Honduras is just as good as 6-0 (as the Mexico GD that i referenced proves).
You don't sound sure. Either way, a difference of maybe 5-6 players in a 23-man squad; still not an increase as "dramatic" as the increase of foreign-born players Jurgen brought. Who are the B1 players that lost their positions to MLS players under Arena? Klinsmann lost because he's a bad coach and that ultimately caught up with him. Even when he "had" the team, he never managed the heights of other US coaches.
You don't sound sure, yet this is a key point of the argument, this Stalinesque purge Arena supposedly carried out. Either way, a difference of maybe 5-6 players in a 23-man squad; still not an increase as "dramatic" as the increase of foreign-born players Jurgen brought. And what did he achieve with them? Who are the B1 players that lost their positions to MLS players under Arena? Klinsmann lost because he's a bad coach and that ultimately caught up with him. Even when he "had" the team, he never managed the heights of other US coaches.
Funny thing to me about this thread is that while I understand that the lynch mob may not always have the best solutions to problems. There are a remarkable number of people who seem to think USSF is just the bees knees. Even if you find the lynch mob a bit much, it should be pretty easy to admit the USSF has been a cluster********. I hope some of the newer changes help, but this is a pretty obviously a deeply flawed organization that needs at least as much if not more changes than we've seen.
This is possibly the most egregious manipulation of stats I have seen in a while. For 2018, we played both Mexico and Costa Rica in our first two games, making the last 8 games easier than the prior 3 versions of qualifying, yet Arena's team received 5 less points than the weakest prior version in 2010. Not sure why you are talking about goal differential, earlier qualifying games, and gold cups. Prior hexagonal made it clear that not getting points from the first two games was some insurmountable hole and the fact that inky 12 points were needed makes it that much worse. 2006 - 3/19 (T&T & Mexico) 2010 - 4/16 (Mexico & El Salvador) 2014 - 3/19 (Honduras & Costa Rica) 2018 - 0/11 (Mexico & Costa Rica)
This cluste&^* of an organization is the same one that had the men's team qualify like 5 times in a row and the women have won multiple titles. I'm not arguing it's perfect but is any organization? I do feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall waiting for new games to be played while listening to the same arguments over and over. Neither Arena or Klinsman are great coaches but the lost generation that is still impacting the pool is by far the main cause of failure. No national team can weather a 5-6 year gap in talent at the prime age group. For the next cycle you could could bring either one of those coaches back and either one would qualify with talent emerging and that will be prime age in 2026.
Chandler was never called up. Wood and Cameron were benched against Honduras, but were brought on to sure up the defense and score the late tying goal. Cameron went vpbqck to the bench after the Hinduras and was then used as a scape goat. FJ was dropped (supposedly for poor play, but if that was the case, most of the players should have been dropped). Jones was back healthy and the exact type of player you want in a must win game away from home. So I guess that is 5 players that were benched or ignored. All of the dual nationals had been purged by the end of the Hex. People try to make it about the T&T game, but it all started to unravel against Coata Rica and then the horrible game at Honduras. The team was absolutely awful down the stretch. A poor player or three can really break a team. Anyone who wasnt busy trying to state why JK was so terrible would have known that the team didnt have the depth to lose our top players when we played Argentina in the Copa. Apparently Bruce was in that former group saw no problem starting Nagbe, Villafana, and Gonzalez when JJ, FJ, and Cameron were available.
This is like being impressed that the original Dream Team won the Olympics. Arena (and Klinsy, to a lesser extent) were by far the main cause of failure. The player pool, though not great, was easily talented enough to qualify for the WC.
who are the german americans whom Klinsmann brought in that didn't deserve it? Green scored a remarkable goal for us at the World Cup and the rest were playing at a level above MLS. If other coaches hadn't brought them in, they'd be guilty of malpractice like Arena was. 5-6 players in a roster is huge, especially if they're better than the alternative.
I think the question is how did the team do relative to its regional competition and talent base? The women's team was by far the most talented team in the world and the talent on the men's side is the second best in the Hex with a big drop after us (usually, although Costa Rica and Jamaica and others occasionally rise up - maybe it's Canada's turn now).
Danny Williams and Alfredo Morales were two guys who were excluded who brought exactly what that failing team need: bite and range in the midfield. Against a C-team for already eliminated TnT, we went with Nagbe - Bradley - Arriola and also had MLS associated Omar as CB. These are the best of "all these players that play in those positions in MLS." Ergo, we didn't qualify.
I'm comparing the teams Jurgen and Bruce both played competitive matches against in the relevant timeframe. How is it misleading? Chandler wasn't a regular starter (or good) even under Klinsmann and was particularly bad in the opening matches of the Hex. Arena sure didn't owe him time to find his footing. Wood started almost every game under Bruce except the one he was used as an impact sub -- and scored. The only player there are arguments for are Cameron, F. Johnson, and Jones who were NT starters when healthy and available. Cameron and Fabian Johnson played themselves to the bench by having terrible performances in the home loss to Costa Rica. You might argue they should've still been rotated in for the round against T&T sure, but you can't argue credibly that they were sidelined for anything other than their own shitty performances in one of the most important Hex matches against a tough opponent. Even though his injury timing makes it difficult, Jones you could argue should've been there. But Jermaine Jones was a 4-year MLS player at that point. Wouldn't not calling him go against the desires of Arena's supposed MLS masters who only gave him the job to force him to call up MLS players?
Morales and Williams weren't excluded; they weren't in the NT picture at the time to begin with. The more the goalposts shift (now Omar counts as an MLS player?) the less coherent this argument is. So let's recap: Supposedly, MLS/SUM is manipulating the NT to ensure MLS players get called up, except: 1) MLS owners choose to play through FIFA dates, blunting any cross-marketing benefit there would be for them 2) MLS owners increasingly refuse to release players for intl duty 3) Bruce Arena only brought in MLS players that were already in Jurgen's WCQ squad. Besides that, he brought in relatively new players like Villafana and Ream, who are not MLS players. The other player excluded by Arena in the latter rounds was Jones, an MLS player at the time. So again -- how did that Arena's choices reflect the will of MLS owners or show a specifically MLS-oriented bias?