XI of the decade - 2010s

Does xGA take into account strength of team? Style of play? A player at Chelsea, Juventus and Atletico throughout that decade isn't going to be competitive with players at Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man City, PSG for attacking returns.
PSG is so far ahead of the rest of Ligue 1, they can win matches there without their usual front three. Di Maria, Icardi and Sarabia/Draxler is possibly the 2nd best attack in the league if you take out Depay from Lyon and that's not something Hazard has ever been able to say for any of his teams. I don't know exactly how xG works but is that accounted for?
I can agree that Neymar is more talented, and on form is the better player, and has more tools. But I personally rate Hazard's impact higher across the past decade. His 2 league titles, and 1 Europa League are more hard fought than Neymar's 4 league titles and 1 Champions League (I'm discounting Hazard's accomplishments before 2013/14, to coincide with Neymar's arrival in Europe).
From 2013/14 to the end of 2020, Neymar has 11 ESM team of the Month appearances to Hazard's 8, whereas Hazard has 2 ESM team of the Year appearances to Neymar's 1. I'd argue further that Hazard has 3 world class seasons (2014/15, 2016/17 and 2018/19) to Neymar's two (2014/15, 2015/16) across this time period. Arguably 2017/18 could be added but I'm not comfortable including a season that ended in February. It may be that Neymar's peak period is superior to Hazard's (First halves of 2015/16 and 2017/18 > First half of 2018/19) and that's a reasonable argument. Or that Neymar's CL win in 2014/15 scoring against champions of England, France, Germany and Italy in the KOs tilts it in his favour, but Hazard's performance in WC 2018 is also considered, with a head-to-head against Neymar that he came out on top.


Anyway, I was initially playing devil's advocate for Hazard but upon closer scrutiny I find him close to Neymar and the best of the rest attackers and I think if looked at a certain way he has a solid argument to be Ronaldo's sub in a team of the decade (ahead of Neymar, Ribery). But an argument can be made for both ahead of him too.

 

To deny neymar was world class in 2016/17 requires a great deal of revisionism

He was as far as I remember completely unplayable in the champions league groupstage.
he then came to the rescue of his team against PSG in the R16

In the league his critics will say he was extremely wasteful with his chances
And he was
This will however be a very narrow minded assessment of his campaign
Neymar did a whole lot more outside of scoring goals leading in both KP+ dribbles
I think it is clear for any objective analyst that the brazilian is just all round more devastating, more consistent (which is important)and has more tools at his disposal to hurt a team

A player who has really done nothing of note in the champions league (ie hazard)cannot be in the HM list


As for 2017/18
It is very hard to really gauge how good one is playing for an extremely dominant super team in a relatively unbalanced league

I will say though as far as the eye test is concerned neymar in that half season 'looked' like a top 25 all timer.

3:24 onwards

IMO Not inferior to prime versions of Roberto Baggio,Romario de souza,dejan savecevic,Micheal Laudrup,rivaldo,ronaldinho gaucho etc

I don't say top ten only because we were robbed from seeing if he could continue his devastating form up until the closing stages of the season( against the best teams in the world. )

 

Team A



Team B



Team C



Team D



Team E
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@carlito86
It really isn't revisionism. Neymar was criticised a lot in 2016/17. He never got going, for whatever reason.
He had issues with Jordi Alba, starting with him holding on to the ball too long
He didn't score as much
He might have had key passes, but he was lagging way behind Messi and Suarez for big chances created despite taking on more playmaking duties for Barca (more touches, more passes, more dribbles, more time on the ball)
Against the rest of La Liga's top 4 he had 0goals + 2assists in 5 matches (Messi had 6+1 for comparison)
Neymar dominating the CL group stage isn't true either. 5 of those 7 assists in the group came against Celtic.

I like whoscored but for sure they favour dribbles, and he led Europe for dribbles, probably by a decent margin. But most people's feeling at the time was that he could release the ball earlier.

To add to this
- 1 ESM team of the Month appearance (mostly on the strength of the come back vs PSG)
- Nobody (apart from whoscored/sofascore) had him in the La Liga or CL XI.

 

Neymar has been world class every year since he arrived in Europe (except maybe in 2013/2014, maybe...) otherwise his production is clearly top-top. Neymar simply does everything Hazard does with almost the double of goals and assists. Hazard simply gains the benefit of being a "referent" on a inconsistent and with a bad campaing in Europe Chelsea.

 

I kinda overlooked 2010 wc was the part of last decade.
Anyhow it is interesting how de gea is the one you mention and not ter stegen or oblak who have only like few solid seasons. De gea has great body of work in this decade. Despite not impressing on international level he did collect 41 apps for Spain. If he did impressed i think he would be on Neuers level.

I think that for some stretches of time, De Gea has reached the highest peak in 2010s in pure ability to stop shots. He had insane runs of forms. He was awarded Uniteds best player of the year 4 times. Only gk and only one to do 3 in a row. His 2018 (i think) season, when united finished 2nd, is insane. Very underrated in talks.

Casillas' few great seasons at the beginning is hardly something that can be so decisive.

Casillas might also be behind Cech and Buffon.

 

Classic you. Cherry picking arguments to suit your wishes.

Ronaldo is a non-negotionable left winger because he is better than anyone at that position and you must not move him, yet you would put Xavi on DM? while Busquets is perhaps even more dominant in his position than Ronaldo. Who else remotely compares to Busquets when it comes to quantity of work? There is no dm that played for 10 years, especially not at that level.
Given your logic both Ronaldo and Busquets are none negotionable first team. And they should be

Plus this idea that there are no conpetition on left wing. Seriously? Neymar Hazard, Ribery, Di Maria, even Sanchez. Iniesta could play that as well. Certainly did play it waay more often than Xavi dm.

There is much more sense to shift Ronaldo to play striker, which he actually did in 2010s at times, to accomodate one of those names than shift Xavi.

Having that said no accomodation is necessary. Everybody can play in their preferred position.

 

Busquets form in the 2nd half of the decade certainly didn't match the first half, but that's mostly because his form in the first half was unmatched by pretty much any DM of the modern era.

I don't think there was a single season this decade where Busquets was not at least top 3 in the world among DMs, and he's probably the best one for at least half the seasons.

Surely, the next evolution of DMs would be a Busquets but with a dominant athleticism. That would be a sight to see.

 

Thats an illusion.

Let me guess. The season after which everything changed is 2015?

It is simply not true. It is a team success bias. Only reason why it appears that way is because Barcelona didnt win champions league in the latter half. And the reason they didnt win is not because of Busquets.

As i said in this forum already, Busquets has very unique set of skills and talent. When he is used to his fullest potential, he is extraordinary player. The likes of which has never been seen. The thing with him and virtually any player is that they are dependent on a system. It is not that busquets has lost his talent in the latter half, just that he played in worse team that hasnt won ucl. If you think he lost his talent, just search for compilations on youtube. He still has it.

The effect of team's success and quality of system are ever present and the biggest fallacy people fall into when judging players quality.

For the entire season i am listening to how bad Ozil is. He lost it. He is so bad. He can not do anymore what he used to do. I denied it. I said, he still has it. He is not super motivated but he still has it. And i would pinpoint the exact moments in a match in which Ozil would showcase his innate talent to play football. They would ridicule it. They would say that is nothing. He doesnt try hard enough.. all those classical ignorant objections.

2 games into Arteta's managerial career, Ozil looks like the old self. My brother (huge fan of Arsenal) is in hype again. (The same applies to Torreira, David Luiz,.. essentially whole tram)

All it takes to transform seamingly disinterested, former world class talent is to put him in the system and team that knows how to highlight his quality. And lets imagine Arsenal wins Europa league, people would call it one of gis best season to date. Like Hazard last season.

Ozil is just like Busquets, very unique talent that can not transcend system, but when put in the right environment, their talent shines brighter than anyones.
If Barcelona could get their shit together and quit misapplying the philosophy of total football, Busi would explode, Barca would perhaps win ucl and you would be claiming Busi to be in his prime.

I seriously think that busquets might as well be better now than in the beginning of his career. He is way more experienced.

I dont think Busquets talent will be matched, but Rodri is a more physical version of him, therefore universally less dependent on any system. The case in point, he was phenomenal under Simeone as well as Guardiola.

 

Except that's not the case at all. Busquets peak, to me, was actually the years when Barcelona was not at their peak, namely 12-14. In 2012-2013, he had genuine claim as the best player in the world, outside of Messi, Ronaldo, and Robben, and in 2014, you could also make an argument for him being the 3rd best in the world, outside the obvious top two.

I agree Barcelona's decline is not because of Busquets, but I also believe that his form post 2015 is also not as good as his form in the first half of the decade.

 

2014, really?
He wasnt even the part of 23 players shortlist for ballon dor. You have very unpopular opinion.

The latter paragraph indicates my premise to be correct. You have the feeling.

Let me ask you this. Why did 27 year old Bsuquets all of a sudden declined and lost his talent to play football? What could possible explain that?

Random year:

 

Yes, I genuinely believe Busquets was easily a top 5 talent in 2014. The reason he wasn't included in the Ballon D'or is because it is not the type of award a DM of a team that won zero title gets nominated for. Vieira was named EPL player of the season in 2001, despite not winning the league, and was Confederations Cup Silver Ball player, and still received zero vote at the Ballon D'or. Tommasi got 2 votes for winning the Serie A with Roma though.

And I never claimed Busquets lost his talent. I simply consider the 2012-2014 version of Busquets his peak version. By definition that means I don't rate his other years as highly. That doesn't mean I don't rate them highly in absolute terms.

I already said I consider Busquets at his peak to be the single highest peak achieved by a DM in the modern era. So although I don't think he was as good in the 2nd half of the decade, I still considered him the best in the world even when the likes of Fernandinho was making claims.

If I said that I consider Messi peak to be the first half of this decade, no one would accuse me of thinking Messi lost his ability. It'll be taken as a normal opinion.

 

Except if i asked you why Messi pre 2015 is better than post 2015, your brain would immediately think of numerous reasons why, yet you havent answered why Busi 12-14 is better than any other version or how is it possible for such an odd thing to take place.

 

Can you explain how Robben is below Iniesta for this decade? I see now on twitter you mention the league starts as a handicap and I can see that. 161 vs 206 league starts for Iniesta.

Some others also look low, but nothing surprises me any more (e.g. the current Henderson media/sponsors agenda, at the expense of Mane and vDijk - Mane has though the advantage of the Francophonie market as the Onze d'Or shows very well...).

 

interested in your thoughts on Pique vs Ramos, one I have also been trying to puzzle through lately. I think I fall on the Ramos side but I am unsure.

 

I'm on the side of Pique.

He's a cleaner player (all those suspensions cost a team on the long run) and has throughout his career conceded far fewer goals. When Ramos won the league (2016-17) as central defender he conceded 41 goals!

The main advantage Ramos has is the goals (except for the UCL!) and the penalties, but that is an extra. The bread and butter is preventing goals and the build-up. I think Pique has the evidence on his side there.

 

I do find it interesting that Barcelona have consistently had fewer goals allowed than Real Madrid, even when Mourinho was there.


Barca Real
08/09 35 52
09/10 24 35
10/11 21 33
11/12 29 32
12/13 40 42
13/14 33 38
14/15 21 38
15/16 29 34
16/17 37 41
17/18 29 44
18/19 36 46

A lot of goals allowed is related to a teams style and midfield. I think Busquets positioning and ability to predict danger and a huge advantage for Pique, as was Xavi at the beginning of the period basically dominating possession. Real have had some excellent midfielders and units in front of Ramos but they did not have the same style or types of players as Barca.

 

They concede less goals because they control the game much better than Madrid. When you see them at their peak, it was very difficult to score against them when you don't have the ball.

Barcelona's defensive weakness isn't really the kind of thing mid-table teams and below can exploit on a consistent basis. Even the elite clubs struggle, as they're much more focused on stopping Barcelona, but in the UCL, we've already seen their high-line exploited enough times to know that it is a weakness against well-prepared elite sides.

 

I too fall more towards Pique side, but Ramos goals aren't just any goal. Without his goals, Madrid would have two less UCL titles. The one in 2014 was particularly iconic, given that it came in the dying seconds.

 

Yes that is fair play but at the same time he has 0 goals in all those tournaments he played (confederations cup included) and 'only' 2 goals as center back against Barcelona (2 more as full-back). Both times a corner kick, both times assisted by Modric.

He has more red cards than goals against Barcelona.

So fair enough but there is a bit of luck involved too (not rarely the case in the CL), while this is less true for the league. Strangely, Pique has more CL goals than Ramos in his career (without taking penalties).

 

I did rate Iniesta fairly high (not of Zidane's class, but the group below) but I also think Iniesta was a bit meh in the 2nd half of the decade (after 2013 or so) while Robben remained fantastic until the end of 2017 (if he played - after that some sporadic MOTM flashes like vs Dortmund in 2018 and Benfica at a difficult moment for his team). I see on twitter some made the same comment about Iniesta.

This is a much smaller gap than I'd expect.

I also think about 2010 (Brazil, Uruguay) though he missed the group stage of course and the CL knock-out stages (where both have their strong marks but possibly Robben has a slight edge if he played). France Football ranked him high.

Yes I think the same.

RvP feels also low next to others of the same generation (potentially De Bruyne too, next to his generation of ~1990-1992 born players - interestingly/wrongly both ESM and VI selected KDB more often than Hazard so far) but looking at the other twitter posts I think I can see the idea.

• Robben and RvP were at one point a top 5 player in the world (top 10 at least according to FIFA and BdO) with a proven record in the CL and national team alike (vs the big teams), had a significantly positive influence on their club, but both suffered from injuries a lot. That's tough luck and Harry Kane experiences that too now (in terms of relentless consistency). De Bruyne also having his injuries between the strong phases and some years under the radar (2016-2017) and Kompany of course.
• Few players who had the appropriate age to be good in both halves. Some of the 'missing generation' (Van Dijk, Gini, De Vrij) have now established themselves as players with a decent reputation, at clubs with upward aspirations and ambition to look higher (without having unlimited money like PSG or City?), after having some good years under the radar (De Vrij at Lazio for example; Gini next to Lampard the only midfielder to score 4 goals in one EPL game). E.g. Strootman could have been there too perhaps but suffered a knee injury when he had the best season of his career (2014) and never truly recovered. Some others like Depay, Sneijder who were especially reliable for the national side.
• Positives are that in three of the four CLs that Spanish clubs didn't win 'we' had a key protagonist for the success; #5 in Elo across this decade for the national team; relative to population (& league of origin) a good amount of ESM inclusions while also not having one outlier (which is a good thing; no one in history has more than 14, which is in some cases possibly too low but at the same time you're not dependent on one Ronaldo or one Suarez/Cavani and no one is rated particularly high the last 20-30 years)

 

Tuchel is using 4-2-2-2 now, I think it would be actually a good formation for a possession-oriented team.

He uses two wide playmakers (Neymar, Di Maria) and two wide forwards/forwards (Mbappe, Cavani) with a two DMC, one more defensive, other a better with a better ball retention, two wing backs also.

So imo,

------- CRonaldo ---- Suarez ------
-------- Neymar ----- Messi --------
------- Busquets -- Casemiro ----
Marcelo -- Chiellini - Silva - Alves
----------------- Alisson ----------------

You can argue about Neuer instead of Alisson or Ramos, Van Djik over the ones of Chiellini or Thiago Silva as I also prefer Thiago Alcantara rather than Busquets... you can argue about Kante over Casemiro too, I prefer Casemiro.

But that would be a very strong line up imo, Neymar plays better as LM/AM according to the Smarterscout than pure LW, Cristiano Ronaldo would be better used as WF, and Messi more often than not operate as Attack-Mid.

 

6 out of 11 being Brazilians in a decade that wasn't legendary for your national team is a stretch

--‐--------Cristiano---Suarez----------
---------Neymar----------Messi--------
------------Busquets---Modric--------
Marcelo--Ramos----Pique--Alves
-----------------------Neuer