Who’s the smartest footballer ever in terms of football IQ?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by JoCryuff98, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. Lockeroom

    Lockeroom Member

    Apr 11, 2008
    Albert Einstein
     
  2. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Well, some Nobels played top Football when younger.
     
  3. Sbey17

    Sbey17 Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Australia
    Jan 20, 2020
    It has to be Messi he simply sees things that are not there. Even with his back to play he manages to put team mates in at seemingly impossible angles
     
  4. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Pep considered him to be as smart as Cruyff and many in fact considered Messi to be intelligent.
     
  5. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Interestingly THE first name on Pep’s teamsheets was always Busquets ..
     
  6. Lockeroom

    Lockeroom Member

    Apr 11, 2008
    Socrates from the magical 1982 brazilian team.
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #32 PuckVanHeel, Feb 3, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
    I was away for a while.

    I think Cruijff is the smartest football person overall, more so than the smartest footballer. There are matches where you can argue about how smart he plays (for example the 1969 EC final, although you can also say he was the only one to try something and succesfully create a penalty).

    So much is also down to information processing and perception. What is known (and this isn't a myth) that when he was a pundit he could look at eight screens at the same time, with then the people in the room betting in which game a goal will be scored or a red card drawn. Most of the times he won the contest. Is that smart or is that just seeing many things at the same time?

    I saw on twitter mentioned (as something remarkable/noteworthy) the first American to coach in a 'Top Five' league mentioned Cruijff as soccer's greatest icon as far as he was concerned.

    "In soccer, Bradley said, Johan Cruyff would be in the same stratosphere.
    “In football, Johan Cruyff is still someone who impacted so many people with his views on the game, with ideas on how his teams can play,” Bradley said of Cruyff, who played for the Los Angeles Aztecs in the NASL in the 1970s, after training Wednesday. “Obviously so much of what happens in Barcelona still stems from the time Johan Cruyff was there.
    "And then Johan Cruyff also has a foundation where his work with kids around the world — they have the Cruyff Courts, the small little courts where kids can show up and play football," Bradley continued. "I think of that type of impact that affects everyone all around the world.”


    Anyway, of Dutch players I'd say these (in particular) had something you could call quite smart, in a way that had also an impactful application for their teams.

    - Cruijff
    - Van Basten
    - Van Hanegem
    - Bergkamp (has also a high IQ in real life)
    - Rijkaard
    - Koeman (??) - not entirely sure
    - Seedorf (as a 15 years old he already talked like he was 35)
    - Rensenbrink
    - Van Persie (much more so as he grew older - surely had strong impact and productivity)
    - Keizer
    - R. de Boer
    - Krol
    - Cocu
    - Israel - not entirely sure
    - Van Bronckhorst
    - Arnold Muhren
    - Danny Blind

    More recently:
    - Van Dijk
    - Wijnaldum

    Then there also particular cases who were 'smart for their position'. Quite possibly Van der Sar who relied heavily on his positioning, anticipation, adaptation and organizational skills to have a (demonstrably!) high impact rather than athleticism (but to be fair also his footballing skills with which he made the odd assist and he's the oldest ever EPL assister). He's the only goalkeeper to play CL finals in three different decades and it can be said he retired at a moment when he was still seen as the best around (or one of the best). Robben was for a winger actually also quite clever and aware of what he was doing - Gianfranco Zola mentions that as well in his Soccerbox episode. If you put him next to Sterling or Sane this is discernable. Sadly it seems the media and people categorically don't rate dutch football/footballers of the last 25-30 years so much.

    You don't have to be particularly smart to be a good footballer. The original Ronaldo or Van Nistelrooij (the best CL scorer of his generation) are good examples. The current implosion of Man City is largely down to fitness, durability, decreased movement and decreased intensity rather than decreased smartness or so.

    ----------------

    For Belgium I actually think some of their smartest players weren't among the best (or most heralded, in their own time). Franky van der Elst is the first I think of. Of the 'big names' it is possibly De Bruyne but not entirely sure. Vercauteren also quite clever (in my opinion/perception).
     
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  8. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Cruyff would’ve been a genius in any field imo. He had a high IQ and the man is basically a football philosopher.
     
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  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks Puck.

    Yeah, I think there would be some degree of variability with all the candidates, and also development of their 'football IQ' with experience.

    That 1969 Final is in theory not a good example for Cruyff I'd say (as a smart player at the pinnacle of football IQ), but it can also come down to physical aspects that as you have said before can impact technical aspects etc (maybe on that day he wasn't in his best form/shape for dribbling and on another day the way he tried to play would have brought more success...even though like you say he was close to breaking through a few times). I guess I'd be thinking of around 73/74 (although club footage is scarce of course), and in particular the 1974 World Cup. Also in the 1980s though probably for example.

    I remember Thierry Henry referring to Bergkamp "doing what the game is asking" or something like that - it wasn't in my mind when I named him but it's kind of agreeing with nominating him I suppose. I think that kind of statement could be applied to Cruyff in the 1974 WC probably too. Vision increases the options to a player (if we're talking of creative players) too I think, so that can be a factor (imagination too), as well as actually choosing successful options.

    I remember Cruyff saying Messi's overall game would improve when he became more of a team player (or something like that) and I think the mentions of him will be based on his later career too, so again experience being a factor, like Cruyff was alluding to I think.

    Yeah, Van der Elst would be in the Busquets kind of bracket I suppose, in terms of using the ball efficiently in a deep midfield position, and being in the right place at the right time to intercept etc. Maybe a Valery Voronin or Didier Deschamps would get a mention for that too?
     
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  10. ManiacButcher

    ManiacButcher Member

    Palmeiras
    Argentina
    May 23, 2004
    Brasil
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #35 ManiacButcher, Feb 3, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes Deschamps is also a good call, and he combined it with some 'minimalist dynamism' too at times, which is harder than just stay static on your place. Always peculiar that he choose to play with #7 or #14 for most of his career as a defensive player.

    Yes Vd Elst was somewhat comparable to Busquets (not of that level ofc in standing) but a difference is he tracked runners more (or was forced to do in his time). Somehow he 'always' seemed to be on the right place or making the right run offensively/defensively and it also felt like he could adapt swiftly to different playing styles and change his 'mindset' (fastening up/slowing down), or with varying numbers of midfielders next to him (one, two or three). I think he's a strong example.

    I had forgotten/overlooked Pelé included him in 2004 among the 125 best living footballers (Pfaff and Ceulemans the two others included by him). Jan Wouters was a fan of him. His nickname was 'the fox' or the 'vacuum cleaner' (which was also the nickname of W. vd Kerkhof). Ofc many of those players also have other good/great attributes like vDijk his distribution range.
     
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  12. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Deschamps the ‘water-carrier’ ?

    Mmmmm
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    A quick search popped up this article (22 may 1999).
    https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/danny-blind-en-franky-van-der-elst~b27f1553/

    Show Spoiler
    Danny Blind and Franky Van der Elst
    To the melody of Oh Carol by Neil Sedaka, Raymond van het Groenewoud sang
    [...]
    Besides Danny Blind (almost 38), Franky Van der Elst (38) also turned his back on the supporters of his club on Sunday with a mixture of resignation and sadness. Only because the home matches of Club Brugge and Ajax started at a different time, they did not run their rounds along the fans at the same time, but it only saved half an hour.

    Blind and Van der Elst have much in common, more than they probably realize. They grew up in a village (Oost-Souburg and Lombeek), started their professional career at a small club (Sparta and RWDM), were brought in by top clubs and didn't move from their place for years (thirteen and sixteen seasons).

    Both Blind and Van der Elst were underestimated for a long time. Only after the age of 30 was the importance of their role in the team universally recognized. As footballer, as Van het Groenewoud sings, they have 'insight': they lead the game insightfully and silently and are indispensable.

    Both were captains, remained loyal to football and were able to choose from numerous offers. Blind has been appointed director of Ajax's player policy. Van der Elst becomes the trainer of the Antwerp merger club Germinal Beerschot.

    To Blind also applies what Belgian weekly magazine Voetbal Magazine wrote about Van der Elst last week: "The conductor had to be very involved with himself this year, too little with the orchestra." The knee gave way to Blind, the whole body to Van der Elst.

    Both players built a good relationship with the press - not with a few chosen ones but with every journalist who took them seriously - and remained, in good and bad times, themselves. Everyone's friend. And they both love moderate beer drinking and the coziness that should accompany it.
    [...]
    Last matches of footballers always evoke a sense of nostalgia and ache. I was not surprised that Blind cried on Sunday. A few weeks earlier he admitted, rather than winning a league title or European Cups, the farewell to Pettersson and Rijkaard had moved him.

    Van der Elst did not cry, on Sunday at the Jan Breydel stadium in Bruges where I happened to be present. He probably felt no sadness, such as Blind, but relief.

    The manner in which he was honored on the field afterwards by a dozen men in gray costumes was initially hilarious. An old man, it must have been the chairman, murmured a little into a microphone. When eighteen thousand people started chanting the name of Van der Elst, eighteen thousand people who had expressed their love to the footballer throughout the game, the stupid old man asked for silence.

    For Van der Elst that was the signal to leave the group in the middle circle in the middle of a sentence of the bewildered speaker. For several minutes he then went past the stands, with scarfs and flowers.

    He closed the tour in front of the section with supporters from Westerlo who had shouted the entire game for the club that was one point ahead of Club Brugge in the Belgian competition, Racing Genk. But they too were thanked, long-term and with appreciation.

    The tears of Blind and the gesture of reconciliation by Van der Elst were moving and impressive. For a few minutes on Sunday afternoon in Amsterdam and Bruges, football was stripped of false sentiments and jealousy, and reduced to simplicity.
    (indeed, only when he became 30 he was twice footballer of the year and twice runners-up - with the league still top five in the coefficients or so)

    To close it off.
     
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  14. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    At first, Johan Cruyff was the obvious name that came into my mind when I read the thread title. However, the more I thought about it, my vote actually goes for Gerd Müller.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In some cases this is obvious, with others hard to grasp and more like that the penny of observers can only drop once a player has been tested in various settings and after more than a couple seasons.

    Who I forgot after seeing Blind his selection with players he had the best connection with was Aaron Winter, who was top class as full-back, defensive midfielder and also attacking midfielder (thanks to his close control and short turns). He fitted well in offensive teams and defensive teams alike. He merits a thought and played in a handful big continental finals over the span of a decade (I wouldn't call him a "great player" though).

    http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaCa...omePlayer=Winter&dataNascitaPlayer=01-03-1967

    Interestingly, in the past Van Dijk's laid back style put people off, but now it kind of adds to his aura of rarely going out of second gear (I also thought of him in the way he plays extremely well with many different partners next to him: Gomez, Matip, Lovren, De Ligt, Ake but also Bruma early in his NT career with then shambolic defeats happening when he didn't play).

    https://theathletic.co.uk/1553606/2020/01/24/gomez-van-dijk-liverpool-sterling-england/
    https://www.goal.com/en/news/diffic...for-liverpool-gomez/ok49oktaq3sw1gygo5utn6c11

    When he was playing CL for Celtic there was a brief comment by Cruijff about how you can see his "aptitude" when it gets "crowded or chaotic", but unlike all the great defenders (Ferdinand, Nesta, Terry, Thiago Silva) "he doesn't give the impression he wants to work for his money" and this might create confusion among scouts as if he switches off. I can't find the full video back but in the main he said VvD has traces of a player who can bring a team forward, but not everyone will be readily convinced.

    Unlike De Ligt (so far) he is also about equally good when playing on his 'unfamiliar' place (on the right, in his case). De Ligt is twice the player when playing on the right side (maybe it gets better once the Italian language and home becomes 2nd nature, who knows). Then also the two goals very early in his career in a play-off match as a right-back (improvised striker later on, like in his youth). Taken all these type of things together I think there are enough data points to place him in that sort of 'football IQ' bracket. I saw Del Piero saying it is harder to stand out and excel as a defender when playing for a British team.

    It's not always clear-cut or easy to say (VvD, Claude Makelele) but there are some who show a steep progression after a certain age (I'd say RVP progressed enormously after around 2006-2007 - around the period just before he broke his metatarsal while scoring the equaliser vs ManUnited in january 2007, when Henry left, and it became one of his marquee features according to the 'great' coaches). It is important to stay healthy and that has affected De Bruyne in periods when his fitness was down, and also Hazard when his explosiveness was off (2015-16 season, to an extent the current season)
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I understand what you mean.

    On a related note (not strictly development of 'football IQ' but with that being a part of it), I guess there are cases where a coach brings out something extra but the raw ingredients are basically already there technically.

    The Figo video Carlito posted on the European Players thread places him and Cruyff in my mind, and there would be Xavi/Guardiola too. It is a bit of both (the advancement of the players game by the coach and 'everything being in place already in theory' in the player's game pretty much in terms of what can be done with the ball etc) I guess in cases like those.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I think even in those extreme examples (Figo came in for 2 million, sold for a world record) it's a mix of both. There is the (then unusual) training methodology and it's a matter of scouting.

    Figo and Guardiola came as central/defensive midfielders at a time when a big forceful tackle was seen as a minimum requirement for this position (from Keane to Rijkaard). If you don't care about tackling so much, perspectives change a lot, especially since Figo was not completely off the radar (some accolades as a youth player or youngster, but yes others of that 'golden generation' had it even more so perhaps). In modern eyes Figo his performance as central midfielder against England might look a lot better, more important, as it was regarded in his own time. Oddly, J. Wilson wrote that Xavi his mindset changed a lot once Edgar Davids joined Barcelona (who had a Big Tackle). "There is a certain irony, of course, in the fact that Cruyff was better able to shape Barcelona, ostensibly the bigger club, than Ajax, where he ran constantly into the obstreperousness of other Dutchmen."

    Figo said this in 2008 (and here): "I went to Barcelona because [Johan] Cruyff, a football legend, coached there. It was his last year as coach, he gave me a lot. Today I still think Cruyff is ten years ahead of anyone else. After him, I had other great coaches, but the Dutch school is fantastic. [...] When I arrived at Barcelona Cruyff made me a great player, he made me an international player."

    The recent Cruijff biography (which is very good albeit incomplete) wrote this about the combined Bergkamp/Guardiola cases.

    "It looked as a gamble: Bergkamp was in the eyes of many way too modest and scrawny for the big work, not for nothing he played most of the times in the A2 [the 2nd youth team]. But Cruijff saw it different: he had followed Bergkamp for many years and intervened to place him in youth teams on many different positions to increase his resilience. Attacker Dennis was a bit like 'Jopie' in his eyes, a lean boy with insight, speed of execution, technique. [...] 'He just has that understanding of structure, can create, seamlessly blend in and enhance your team.'"

    "[...] but according to him Pep just saw 'it', had 'better eyes' than others, and his handling speed and technique were more important than his lack of weight, lack of a tackle and lack of stamina. [...] In the end his verdict was proven right, just as in 1987 with Bergkamp."

    In other words: it was already there. That is not to say there are never arguable judgements or ones that didn't play out as well (but as that biography concludes: the 'failure rate' is overall on the low end of the spectrum).

    ---------

    As an aside, I didn't see the Man City vs Tottenham game but it might well be Mourinho will unlock/use/enhance the full range of Bergwijn his profile (he is not in VIs team of the week btw). Hopefully without getting rid of the flair elements or nullify his dribbling. So far he's a decent player who has potential to increase his football IQ (but not yet there).



    Mourinho was seemingly happy: "Independent of the goal, his performance was good, solid, mature," added Mourinho. "We worked hard in the week with him to try as fast as possible to understand what we wanted from him, so it was a good performance against such a difficult opponent like Kyle Walker.

    "He was clever enough to create some problems. Also, defensively, very aware of his position, very good at covering spaces, and then of course the goal was great and so important for us."

    https://www.skysports.com/football/...instant-impact-boosts-spurs-and-jose-mourinho
     
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I do remember being impressed (via extended highlights I guess) by Figo vs England at the time, but it was in essence my introduction to him really I think so it can be a matter of being impressed with the qualities as much as the performance, plus to be fair it's been pointed out on here before that 16 year olds tend to more easily form positive impressions (which I wouldn't completely dispute, within reason). He was already a Barcelona player, and playing well as winger/attacker I think I'd be right in saying for his club though. I think his highlights show he did use the wings a lot in Lisbon too.

    Seems strange that others at Ajax wouldn't rate young Bergkamp maybe! But yeah Cruyff's insight proved invaluable in incorporating him and starting his career off well I'm sure.

    Yeah, I suppose it can be argued both ways about whether Joe Cole thrived under Mourinho (improving the defensive side, being more economical/decisive maybe) or was held back (big demands on the defensive side, discouragement from trying so much in the way of flair moves perhaps).

    Going back to Belgium, I guess it makes sense among the recent star players to value De Bruyne a bit more than Hazard for this yeah, although as stated on this thread (and again I don't disagree even if I didn't write out a list containing mostly the top legends) top players will tend to be pretty good for this...and Hazard vs Brazil in the WC could be an example where he was using the ball well, making a lot of good decisions for example from memory. I'm actually thinking Ceulemans has a case to be valued highly here too though, maybe more than Scifo even if he could ultimately be the better playmaker on his day and also had a knack for being in the right place to score I'd suggest. I think others have written online (maybe on his PES stats page even) that Ceulemans used the ball nicely and efficiently and had a good brain for what to do, and I think the videos of him from full games (like vs Scotland or Anderlecht) that you've posted can help to show it (the timing of passes and use of team-mates vs Scotland maybe, or as you said not long ago the passes over medium distance to forwards vs Anderlecht - even if yeah maybe Scifo's passing accuracy and range can be even better). Maybe that was there irrespective of being in his best form technically/generally too (maybe some of his World Cup goals can attest to well timed runs and shots etc too I think).. Maybe Vercauteren scored the 'cleverest' Belgian World Cup goal that I can think of, with a chip in 1986!
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #44 PuckVanHeel, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
    It is not a black or white thing (i.e. RvN, Hazard aren't 'dumb' players - not even next to Raul Gonzalez) and like I said I was "not entirely sure" (i.e. can be someone else as KDB and doesn't apply equally well per Edhardy his thoughts) but there is also an element of whether a player can change his playing style, be unobtrusive even, or whether he adapts more to the team or the team adapts to him. KDB makes sense along those lines, next to his vision of the entire field (some truth in these comments), non-dumb work rate, pressing and spatial awareness. With in mind of course that it has to be effective/influential. Rijkaard could be unobtrusive and evade his tackling ability (also change/vary his style of play a lot) to the point some Italian raters needed time to accept this (not per DBScalcio, I know); Cruijff was a superstar where the team didn't have to fully adapt to him (as in maximizing the goals or assists for example), next to all the other things like a quick mind, anticipating in advance, playing well as a sweeper etc. (young Gullit his quote about the team "only adapting for 20%", as you saw, ironically within a comment to nuance the importance). Some players like Ramos, Gullit, Ceulemans can have a too big presence to really qualify as enormously intelligent (next to other candidates alongside them). Changing your mental mode is one of the boxes to tick, since many players just play on the autopilot, instant vision and on (ingrained) intuition. Just a few ideas and you made a solid attempt anyway!
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Might have said it before but he's born very late in his cohort (Zidane another example). Makes it much harder to assess. Also hard to predict the manner of someone's professionalism/perfectionism, or whether someone is too shy and timid. Not everyone in the club saw the highest school level as a recommendation for success, as if it would blunt someone's spontaneity and survival instincts. In the same way, it isn't a given that a smart 15 years old boy with lapses of nervousness will get interested as veteran player in youth matches.
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #46 PuckVanHeel, Feb 7, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
    Also think some of the skills cannot be executed by every 14-15 years old. Passes like this for example.


    Provided that I think he has shown enough to be a very good player (games against France, England, Germany, Real Madrid for Ajax, 2nd half against Real Madrid for Barcelona, Valencia, Borussia Dortmund, Juventus within the span of 1.5 years - goals/assists in some of those too) and shouldn't be used as a winger or striker (even more so if the team ignores his off-the-ball runs...), I don't think he qualifies yet for the 'football IQ' bracket. Mainly because he always plays the same way, more or less.

    I agree with some of the remarks Ruud Gullit made:

    "What was quickly visible is that De Jong plays as he is used to. Having an open stance to the most logical players ahead. Often that is not Messi because he is quite far away from him. Great, logically. At Barca, however, they have not played that way for years. They are open to the players who can reach Messi. A big difference."

    For the national team: "I thought Frenkie was very good in the first half. When Pröpper came in, Frenkie started to play on the left and he was actually far less in the game. But the strange thing is: this was just right. [...] Commentator Emile Schelvis notes that the rushes of De Jong against Northern Ireland in the British press were again compared with those of Johan Cruijff. "I can imagine that, because he took it by the hand," says Gullit. "It is a player who, when it is difficult, makes sure that you get football again. He took the team by the hand, because he felt that they could not get out. You will not get him."
    https://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=362900

    "I want to give it confidence, it's great to watch when he's at the ball. But I look at the result. If the passes only go back or go wide, it's no use. There are times when he really has to do it. Then I think: what a great football player. But I don't see it enough."
    https://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=366787

    This indicates he plays more or less always the same style and then also 'safety first'. He can give the final ball if he wants, and yes maybe there has to be a bit of immediate pressure but also when he plays as a central defender (intercepting, anticipating) he plays the same way, or with the same mindset I feel. There are times (from what I've seen) he increases the risk in his play, but only when there is no other way (the Northern Ireland match is a good example; 0-1 down ten minutes before the end and that was the moment to step up and run away 3-1 - or he starts to shoot). He is generally more 'dominant' as right sided midfielder than left sided midfielder.

    Also comparing here his first season:


    I can't understand how Barcelona uses the likes of Paulinho or FDJ as a forward/striker. And then also at an already malfunctioning left handed side with Griezmann there and occasionally an inadequate left back.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, true, when talking about mid-teenage players there would be various factors like that to do with physical development (including not even have grown into the final shape/height yet), as well as matters of self confidence, self expression etc.

    They wouldn't be immediately seeing a replica of him in his best Arsenal games, or even his best Ajax ones a few years later.

    It must have been a case where someone like Johan can spot something, but Dennis was not obviously evidently the best player whenever he was on the pitch or something. I know some players, like Michael Owen, and I think Ryan Giggs, thrived as teenage players by using their pace and managing to run/dribble past multiple players and score many goals (Owen anyway). Bergkamp would possibly have had decent pace, but yeah maybe it was a nuanced situation where he was able to show some promising skills etc to impress and show potential. Scifo scored loads of goals at youth level, presumably without the runs/pace that Owen had (I guess in midfield, although he was called Little Pele I know).
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Okay, this example is an exception to be fair

    1226601468179943426 is not a valid tweet id
     
  24. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Haha, I was watching the match and half expecting/hoping you'd reconsider your initial assessment of FDJ - very intelligent performance, and an incredible feel for the game. At some point during the first half when both sides were pressing aggressively and compressing the playing area to around 40 or so metres, only him and Messi were finding any space, and to his credit he was showing brilliant technique to keep the ball and complete some smart actions. He's not the finished article in terms of IQ, but I see him as the cerebral player of his generation.

    Brilliant goal too.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think Scifo (like Owen) was maybe too hastily phased in. A few of his more prolific seasons were at the start of his career. In his first full season he scored 22 goals for club and country (without penalties) while he was not the main guy, the focal point. Later on he became more of a playmaker but the last 1.5 years of his Anderlecht spell weren't good and possibly he was overworked (before he went to Italy and then France).

    I also think he wasn't always the most professional or dedicated person. One aspect where you might/can see this is the weak foot. De Bruyne is quite good in this so far, as was Bergkamp as a youth player (37% of Arsenal goals in all competitions with his weaker foot) and RvP (here and here). Lukaku surprisingly among the top guys for weak foot too, but about him it is also known he has a level of dedication and intelligence.
     
    PDG1978 repped this.

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