How is giving CP the the freedom to wherever he wants on the field limiting? I thought about who I want in the attack. Sargent is the striker, weah and Reyna generally start wide but with freedom to cut in, and CP runs at same holes he does for chelsea but has access to both sides. There is nothing short sighter about giving him freedom so he isnt dependent on lesser players to get him the ball. The usmnt doesnt have Jorginio, Kante, Mount, etc to get him the ball. just because he is playing centrally doesnt mean he is playing as a classic 10. he should the position however best utilizes his skillset in that area of the field. That would mean the same aggressive attacking style he shows when playing wide. If out wide is a better position for him, why does he so much less production when playing out there?
You're either making him dependent on "lesser" players to get him the ball, or dependent on "lesser" players to combine well with him and finish the chances he might create in this lineup. The US team will always, on some level, be dependent on "lesser" players. Considering the personnel, I think you've got a weaker formation and are not maximizing the skillsets of your pool if you have 2 wide players alongside CP, playing as "the 10". The reasons for this go far far beyond "where he is on the pitch"... it's a very complicated question, as much about his coach, his teammates, his opponents, his mental state during the moments of these respective matches, as it is about his specific positioning.
You make good points: to me the key question is who is the next in line at the 10 and on the wings? I think we're much deeper at wingers than for a 10/AM so I'd lean toward having him play centrally. Of course, I wouldn't use a 10 at all....
Ledezma is the purest 10 coming up. I think Reyna will develop into a player who can play there. I'd be ok with CP out wide if either of them develop into a solid option. Until then, I see no reason playing CP out wide,
I'd rather have the "lesser" players in smaller roles and my best player in one of the biggest role. There is nothing rigid about how I am suggesting they line up. There is no reason CP cant drift out wide (one both sides). I'd expect Weah and Reyna to play very differently. I'd expect Weah to pinch in more as a second striker as well as stretch the backline. Reyna would be more of winger (how he often played with our u17s) or inverted winger. I look forward to Llanez breaking through and being another option that would play the role more like CP. Who are your central midfielders? How do you line them up? Sure it is complicated. The issue I have is that CP has been ineffective much more out wide than centrally and we cant afford him to be ineffective. This was true in 2017 and 2019. The issues that caused this are still there or the current coach has created new ones. Until the issues are resolved, playing CP out wide risks limiting his ability to impact the game.
I see no reason to worry about a "10"... the personnel of this young pool, to me, seems more fit for a 4-3-3 in which you get creativity from a free-roaming wing position (which very nicely matches CP's skillset) and/or an adventurous & capable 8 who can push forward and combine in the attacking 3rd (which doesn't really match CP's skillset). So until a real, unique 10 emerges (which CP is clearly not, IMO), and they are good enough that they have to be considered not only undroppable from the squad but SO uniquely talented that deploying them as something other than a "10" is demonstrably leading to poor results and needs to be rectified... I personally wouldn't want them to cater to the idea of what that position, the 10, represents. And also, in some ways it's addition by subtraction... playing only one of (or none of!) the likes of Arriola/Morris/etc improves the side more than playing CP through the middle. IMO. I think before long the options in CM are going to be better than the options out wide, which is another reason I'd play him there.
Dest is a fantastic creator. When I see Robinson next to Brooks on the left I think of a house of cards steadily rising 1 card at a time.
I hope the recent quite optimistic posts have a lot of truth in them but I believe that Greg B. and company will screw it up. It would not surprise me to see things like Pulisic playing goalkeeper and Brooks at forward. I just think we have an absolutely HORRIBLE coach that has no clue about how to get the best from the player pool. The "system" is the only thing that matters at all.
I am not worrying about a 10. I have tried to get the best players on the field with roles and spaces on the field that they can make the most influence. Somebody needs to play in the middle of the field and think it should be CP until a true 10 emerges. I think CP has played significantly better in the middle of the field than wide for the USMNT. I have seen nothing to suggest the current coach, system, and players will change that. What he does at his club is pretty much irrelevant. I have already gotten all those players off the field. I will again ask who are your 3 central midfielders and what are their roles?
I'm not sure, it depends on a lot of factors... I'm intrigued by Reyna being played in an attacking 8 role CP isn't one of them, though, because from where I sit that either puts (perhaps vastly) inferior players in important attacking positions or it assumes the best possible development in the immediate future for players that haven't really produced yet. I mean, where does that factor into your "CP doesn't produce wide" argument? You put Weah and Reyna as wide attackers, where's their production? Don't get me wrong, CP can play through the middle... but he's the best skillset for a winger or wide attacker in the pool and it's not even close. He's been a huge threat in the top leagues of Europe as a wide attacker, almost primarily. And considering there are more good CMs than wide attackers, that's a big part of the reason I put him out wide. Part of the problem I have with your argument is you're looking back multiple years at a completely different team and, just to take a couple data points, suggesting that a 4-0 win over trinidad is worse than a 6-0 win over honduras... because Pulisic produced more in one of those? When he performed in both of them. This is just cherry picking what you value, and not only that it's coming from a 3 year old team... he was playing with Bradley, Dempsey, Altidore in that 6-0... what does that have to do with anything going forward? The issues with this team are about much more than playing CP through the middle or not. He'll probably play through the middle more btw! I'm just saying it's not what I would do. If a really good winger emerged I'd consider that a good reason to move him centrally.
I agree with the premise which if I reading correctly is to use the combination that makes the best overall team. I get the idea behind what good is it to have Puli in the middle if you are going to put a Paul Arriola on the wing. Put Puli on the wing and perhaps a better mid than Paul is. I do like Arriola's eefort and speed, but I don't recall seeing much come from all that flash. I believe the idea that of a Weah and Morris wide with Puli in the middle is intriguing if Morris continues in his unbelievable form. Hell I would even oplay Dest on that wide spot before Arriola. I would do that next break and take a look at that with one of the other right backs we have behind Dest. I do not much about he Reyna kid, but Puli was a CAM until BVB decided he could see the field as a winger even if that was not his "best" position. Frank even mentioned that early this year.
This seems like another BS moment where you have your opinion and nothing is going to change it. So no central midfield and a 17 yo, but CP is wide. Weird that one of inferior players I have out wide, you want to consider him in the middle. If CP is producing in the middle, it takes thr pressure off the inferior players out wide to produce. Do you not remember ten years ago when our forwards didnt produce but it wasnt a problem because Dempsey and Donovan were carrying that responsibility. Again, your argument is based on what he does at Chelsea and BVB and not the USMNT. Who are these good CMs? I dont see them. You ever wonder why Salah and Mane play centrally for their country? That is just another lazy argument to try to discredit facts. The data was in front of you to look at as well. So let's strengthen the argument. There is a long standing amount of data that suggest CP is much less productive out wide. This long trend was also very true in 2019. He had a G and A per game playing centrally this year and then got nothing from the run of play vs Canada 2x and Cuba. AM - 4G & 3A in 7 games R/LW - 1PK & 0A in 3 games 3/27/19 H Chile 1:1 AM 1 0 36' 6/23/19 H Trinidad 6:0 AM 1 2 90' 7/1/19 H Curaçao 1:0 AM 0 1 90' 7/4/19 H Jamaica 1:3 AM 2 0 90' 10/12/19 H Cuba 7:0 LW 1 0 68'
A handful of matches, with tons of other things going on re: injuries, formations, tactics, isn’t “data”. I’m not trying to change your mind, just giving an opinion... there’s nothing lazy about my argument, someone I wasn’t directly addressing just came in and understood what I was trying to say pretty well. But the gist is, making lineup selections based on a handful of times CP produced isn’t a way to get the best 11 on the pitch, and that’s what I’m more concerned with... especially when the LW position I’m talking about would see CP having freedom to operate through the middle and give him every opportunity to produce. Pointing out it has more often happened when he’s deployed centrally means little to me... there are tons of other reasons relating to his US form over the past few years, and the US performance at times has been in moments really good overall, both with him through the middle and him wide, despite his relative production in those instances. I expect him to be played through the middle more, I’m just saying it’s not what I’d do. We will see how his performance in this position continues with more caps going forward.
FC Dallas plays a somewhat similar 4-3-3 as Berhalter other than the weird only the right back attacks and then the left back becomes part of three center backs. He classifies the midfielders as a 6 and two eights but one is a free 8. So he doesn't consider any midfielders to be a 10 although there has also been some who classify them as a 6, a 6/8 and a 8/10. In my mind the same thing. So is Pulisic or Reyna a 8/10? I can certainly see either in a 4-2-3-1 as the sort of 10 behind the forward but the responsibilities, positioning and angles are different and there two ball winning dedicated mids behind that 10 spot. So depending on formation yes Pulisic or Reyna could play the 10 but probably not the 8/10 - free 8 role.
The Premiership cannot be compared to the international game. Christian playing CAM in the Premiership would end up stretchered out soon.
problem being we watch games too, and see that he plays as an outside attacking mid. he has played as a central player for us a few times, and a handful of times between dortmund and chelsea (a handful being roughly five). he has been, is and will be a wide player. do you really want to hang your hat on that one weird time he played st? hes no more a central player for chelsea than he is an up-and-down the line winger who does nothing but cross and never gets into attacking positions. and you know that just like the rest of us.
He is the most talented american attacking player ever that best skill is running at players with the ball. He is capable wide or centrally. One game? We have two years worth of games. I'd like to have more, but it is enough to come to a conclusion. AM - 17 G & A in 14 games (7 G & A in 7 games in 2019) R/LW - 3 PK & A in 11 games (1 PK in 3 games in 2019) Is there an argument against these numbers other than where he plays for his club? Is there a reason why two of best wingers in dont play wide for national team? Why is where he plays at his club so important? He is clearly more productive when playing centrally for the USMNT. His best games have been centrally and his worst games out wide. It isnt surprising either. There is a reason he hasnt scored from the run of play when deployed out wide. He gets isolated out there and is dependent on lesser players to get him the ball. He has less room to operate making harder to get open and easier to shut down with multiple defenders. After seeing less of the ball in less space, he is then further from goal. It is easier for him to get on the ball centrally. He has more space to operate and if double teamed he can drift out wide to find space or pull defender out of the middle. He can take people on in the middle of the field, draw in defenders and set up teammates, and draw fouls in more dangerous spaces.
You can cal him a wide player all you want, but if "he" is your wide player on that side, you better have an overlapping fullback, or the field can get real skinny on his side. Assuming he is not marked right out of the game and relegated to picking the ball up at the halfway line and passing it back to the fullback who forgot he needs to overlap and provide some width. The midfielder is too busy worrying about Bradley's leaky shield to be of much help getting him forward with the ball in an attacking position. FTR it is a pretty weak appeal to authority when that authority is Big Soccer posters. Please avoid trying to assume "we" as in the "just like the rest of us" you used , agree with you.
are you saying he plays centrally more than he plays wide? because i think its fair to say i shouldnt speak for anyone other than myself- but this is a matter of "he has brown hair. we can all see that." im not roping anyone into a wacky opinion here. he plays wide somewhere north of 90% of the time. any "where SHOULD he play" arguments aside he does, in fact, play wide. under blue skies, on green grass. and @bsky22- "He is the most talented american attacking player ever that best skill is running at players with the ball. He is capable wide or centrally." agree. "One game? We have two years worth of games. I'd like to have more, but it is enough to come to a conclusion." ummm...what? the only "one game" i mentioned was the one match he played as a central st/fw for chelsea- an outlier as we are talking playing roughly a 10 for the us vs wide with the us. well, and his club, which i foolishly thought was relevant simply due to it being >85% of the games he plays. is it controversial to say i tend to simply difer to the opinions of multiple managers for dortmund and chelsea (not to mention former us managers) over gregg berhalter, even IF i didnt feel he is at his best playing wide? and what 14 games are you talking about? he had 11 caps in 2019. you say he score 4 playing central, 1 wide, great, but he scored 9 playing (almost exclusively) wide before 2019. is there a reason those numbers arent relevant? i dont think "He is clearly more productive when playing centrally" is as clear as youre trying to make it look by confining the numbers (which are never the whole story) to one year, under one mediocre (at best) manager, on one wholly dysfunctional, offensively inept team which regularly leaves him blanketed with at least 3 defenders. and i fail to see the logic in saying he has more space to operate in the middle, where the entire spine of the opposition can collapse on you. look, (imo) hes not a tight control player suited for playing centrally, he thrives attacking in space. thats my entire argument. if you think differently ok. but i think youre trying to prop up your argument with those statistics that come directly after lies and damn lies.
Actually, his 1st/2nd manager at BVB, Tuchel put him on the wings to get him playing time and up until then he had mostly played a 10 role. His manager at his current club thought he was better suited to play a central role, but as we can see he is not up to it physically. The way CFC plays the LAF and the RAF don't really provide much width, that comes from the fullbacks. All their WAF's cut inside most of the time. It is funny you think I would use statistics, when i have a degree that says I can do real math. I find that very few understand what the numbers actually tell them when using statistics and I do not find football a game that can be easily quantified with the technology available today.
the first paragraph was replying to your post. but whatever, this is a stupid argument. outside mid is basically central mid cause they cut inside (as opposed to, i dont know, cutting outside even further?). i have no clue why i try to talk soccer with other fans expecting it to be anything other than absolute nonsense pissing contests.
Relying on the club coaches ignores that those coaches make those decisions in the context of those teams. The USMNT doesnt have a Jorgino, Kante, Mount, Reus, Gotze, Witsel, etc. If they did, my view wouldnt be this strong. I assume this is why Salah and Mane play centrally for their countries. I counted all the games he played starting with the Trinidad game in 2016 (this is when he became a starter) and excluded the 3 games in 2018 (no goals and assists playing once each wide, central, ss). I separated the 2019 games as someone argued the team had changed. I only have 10 because I didnt include the Panama game because TM didnt have a position listed but appears he had another wide appearance without a goal or assist. AM - 17 G & A in 13 games (7 G & A in 7 games in 2019) R/LW - 3 PK & A in 11 games (1 PK in 3 games in 2019) https://www.transfermarkt.us/christian-pulisic/nationalmannschaft/spieler/315779 I excluded the games in the first eight months and few days as he was used off the bench. I see him with 3G and 1A in 7 appearances (not going to add up the minutes but probably close to 180 mins). I guess that changes the story a little bit, but the team was much different back then, the midfield was stronger, and Klinsmann gave him more flexibility to roam. If you add thos 4 G&A and only add 2 games given the limited minutes it still looks like he is much more productive when playing centrally. AM - 17 G & A in 13 games R/LW - 7 G & A in 13 games What part of this do you disagree with? It is easier for him to get on the ball centrally. He has more space to operate and if double teamed he can drift out wide to find space or pull defender out of the middle. He gets to choose where he goes when he starts centrally where he is limited if starts out wide. If he is double teamed out wide and he comes centrally he is just bringing those defenders into a more clogged space. I think he can play well in tight spaces but is at his best running at defenses. I just think he is more dangerous when doing it centrally than out wide. What lies? CP is a goal scorer first (for now). He has said so himself. While generally played out wide at BVB, he scored the majority of his goals when taking up a more central position. He just causes so much problems for defenses when running them up the middle. Some of these kind of remind me of the plays he made against honduras in early 2017 when he had a hand in 5 of the goals. It also shows the threat he is in the air and pouncing on lose balls in the box.
I don't have a problem playing him centrally as long as we surround him with competent attacking players because like at Chelsea or Dortmund defenses cant load up on him, so that freedom youre talking about is able to be had at the NT level. If not, I think his skillset is better outwide. Numbers tell part of the story, and they agree with you. But others have laid out a case that I would make. We will agree to disagree, as its another one of those that I think is preference and not so much right or wrong.
Why don't we consider the opponent when we decide where to play our best attacker? Let's find their weaknesses and see if we can attack them with our strengths.
I'd add we need to consider also who will play the spot he doesn't and if there's a huge difference in quality then play Pulisic at the spot that lets the better player be a starter. That could be game to game and also considering the opponent.