@PDG1978 Fun exercise and discussion: The Best All-Time football teams by letter, A to Z, ordered 1 to 26.These results are final but feel free to tell me all the really obvious players we forgot.Thanks to everyone who helped on this, a wonderful team effort.— GoalScorer Challenge ⚽️ (@GoalscorerC) July 16, 2019 [THREAD]The Best All-Time Premier League teams by letter, A to Z, ordered 1 to 26.Balance is important here, so some inferior players make it in just so the formation is vaguely coherent. Formations in brackets.Van counts as V for this - not technically correct but fine.— GoalScorer Challenge ⚽️ (@GoalscorerC) August 14, 2019 More enjoyable than it should be. Think I’d go for V myself. They’ve had a great boost from the Dutch Van-s. Men with Ven https://t.co/2bIf9HbGjI— Michael Cox (@Zonal_Marking) August 15, 2019
What are the most reliable and prestigious sources that analyze and rate players on English teams? Is there any kind of Guerin D'Oro thing where I can follow it?
I would say in terms of results the DBS Calcio ratings might actually show the closest thing to Guerin d'Oro for the English league players because what they do is merge a few sources to make an overall average rating (which I think you know, but I'm just clarifying again in case not). I think the sources they use (or the ones they are using for current season) might be mentioned on the site somewhere. There are the Football Writers awards too. The FWA Player of the Year is chosen, and the shortlist gets published in some places I think (there have been references posted on here, including by me for some editions, to it being in the Rothmans Football Year Book in the past - I think that has a new name now maybe - perhaps Sky Sports Football Yearbook but I could be wrong or imagining that!), along with the consensus XI players for Team of the Season. @comme might be able to think of some others maybe, or some good sources that provide weekly ratings that aren't part of the collection used by DBS Calcio.
As PDG says, there isn't really an equivalent of this in England. Although match grades are given out, they aren't consistent and no publication actively tracks the average of the grades. I don't know what publications DBS Calcio uses either. @Tropeiro
I saw in the summer 'Sport/Voetbalmagazine' (the largest football magazine in Belgium) tried to pick the best footballers in history from England, France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Spain (Netherlands will be for another time because I'll combine this with a NED poll on BEL footballers). This is what I could find: Italy (picture): Readers: Zoff, Maldini and Buffon Editors: Maldini, Baggio and Rivera Spain: Readers: Iniesta, Butragueno, Ramos, Gento, Xavi, Casillas, Raul, Pique, Luis Suarez and Xabi Alonso Editors: Iniesta, Xavi and Suarez England: Readers: Keegan, Charlton, Gerrard, Moore, Lineker, Shearer, Rooney, Lampard, Matthews, Banks Editors: Charlton, Matthews, Moore Germany: Readers: Beckenbauer, Muller, Matthaus, Rummenigge, Maier, Walter, Netzer, Lahm, Seeler, Overath Editors: Beckenbauer, Matthaus, Rummenigge France: Readers: Zidane, Platini, Henry, Cantona, Papin, Kopa, Mbappe, Griezmann, Fontaine, Pogba Editors: Zidane, Platini, Cantona --------------- Netherlands (and vice versa) will be dealt with in another thread. Couldn't find the full top ten by readers for Italy.
Nice work !! Interesting to learn there have been two amazing players named Luis Suarez .. I’d have had Ginola in the French players..
Nice finds Puck (also with the Dutch/Belgian choices you put in the dedicated threads yesterday too), and interesting to see the Belgian perspective. It seems like a decent percentage of voters may have been around in the 60s and 70s at least. Do you know how many players each reader was voting for (perhaps 10 each?)? The results are interesting for Italy, with editors preferring the fantasistas and the readers the goalkeepers overall! I think the hard thing is trying to integrate the very old players, and the other decision would be obviously how much to lean towards peak. With those things in mind I guess if I was making a list of 10 I might even prefer to name a couple of 'alternative choices' that weren't definitively meant to be 11th and 12th but just other feasible options in my estimation. I'd probably end up with something like this doing it that way: England - Charlton, Moore, Finney, Matthews, Banks, Edwards, Lineker, Greaves, Hoddle, Beckham (Alternatives - Gascoigne, Barnes) Italy - Baresi, Baggio, Rivera, Maldini, Meazza, Totti, Scirea, Rossi, S.Mazzola, Buffon (Alternatives - V.Mazzola, Piola) France - Platini, Zidane, Henry, Kopa, Cantona, Fontaine, Pires, Vieira, Tigana, Giresse (Alternatives - Piantoni, Papin) Germany - Beckenbauer, Muller, Rummenigge, Matthaus, Klinsmann, Sammer, Littbarski, Netzer, Walter, Breitner (Alternatives - Hassler, Maier) Spain - Raul, Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Butragueno, Hierro, Gento, Zamora, Martin Vazquez, Amancio (Alternatives - Villa, Pirri) Netherlands - Cruyff, Van Basten, Gullit, Bergkamp, Neeskens, Rijkaard, Krol, Rensenbrink, Wilkes, Robben (Alternatives - Van Hanegem, Lenstra) And if I try for Belgium, plus a few other prominent European football nations (including a few I was 'manager' of for the All-Time World Cup game which maybe helps slightly - I'm counting Kubala as eligible for Hungary here though): Hungary - Puskas, Hidegkuti, Kubala, Bozsik, Albert, Kocsis, Sarosi, Czibor, Bene, Grosics (Alternatives - Schlosser, Detari) Portugal - Eusebio, C.Ronaldo, Figo, Rui Costa, Coluna, Deco, Futre, Jose Augusto, Carvalho, Sousa (Alternatives - Simoes, Germano) Denmark - M.Laudrup, Schmeichel, B.Laudrup, Elkjaer, Simonsen, Lerby, Praest, M.Olsen, Arnesen, Eriksen (Alternatives - Hansen, Molby) Sweden - Liedholm, Larsson, Hamrin, Nordahl, Gren, Ibrahimovic, Brolin, Skoglund, Thern, Limpar (Alternatives - Edstrom, Hellstrom) Yugoslavia - Savicevic, Dzajic, Stojkovic, Suker, Susic, Zebec, Vukas, Boban, Skoblar, Bobek (Alternatives - Boksic, Vasovic) Belgium - Ceulemans, Scifo, Hazard, De Bruyne, Preud'homme, Van Himst, Albert, Pfaff, Vercauteren, Nilis (Alternatives - Coppens, Braine) I know you have your own Netherlands choices pretty much in mind (but with a multi-way tie for 10th place maybe indeed!). I guess you might be able to have a go with Belgium too (I found it quite tricky to pick my 10 for them and for example Kompany was in there at one stage before a re-think about names I was missing, and obviously Coppens and Braine are two relative unknows/unseens so fit well in the 'possible alternatives' section as old players that could replace newer ones potentially rather than vice versa like in some cases).
Yes I will try to have a go. Don't think I'll settle with a definite top group yet. It feels like I have to wait a few years to make a clearer distinction. Say if De Bruyne wins the Champions League with some stellar passes (and adds some more good matches vs the big teams in tournaments) the whole table changes. Kompany I think is now looking better in hindsight since he is gone at Manchester City, and they have defensive issues. He also left the club in such nice way with that important Leicester goal at the end of last season. Maybe I have been too skeptical before. It happens with more players. In 2015-16 Man City also missed him dearly, when there was a realistic chance for the title. At the same time, he has been disastrous so far as a manager and there is ongoing criticism about how the club he played for matches with his political statements. Maybe he'll be (even) better appreciated as time passes by. He was very highly rated as a teenager and much was expected from him back then. There is also an interesting autobiography out now by MvB (which he didn't do before) where he has a lot to tell. From working with Ziyech (at Heerenveen) and Suarez, his ideas about the VAR that he had since 2002. On television and in the newspaper he had a nice interview. The first and last comments (google translate): Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler "Obsessive top athlete Marco van Basten (55) only found his full peace after a long journey. A frank conversation about striving for perfection, dealing with setbacks, healthy selfishness and the usefulness of a neurolinguistic programming course. Marco van Basten isn't the most comfortable person for attention. In fact, he feels best in the shelter. For that reason, he looks - quite frankly - "with some hesitation" at the coming week, in which the Basta biography is presented and he will again fill a few newspaper columns. The official baptism of the book, Monday evening in the Stadsschouwburg, in the presence of friends and former colleagues, Van Basten is looking forward to that, but "the circus around it" is provoking some resistance. Last weekend also the toxic combination of a verbal slider and an accidentally open microphone, during a competition analysis at Fox Sports. He immediately acknowledged a misguided joke - but the outrage at a case of "stupid football humor" was all over the place at the time, resulting in a reprimand from everyone. “What else do I have to say about it? I think my wife said it well: he was a bit stupid. " Van Basten, European footballer of the year in 1988, 1989 and 1992 and World footballer of the year, receives in his house at the Vondelpark. His office, on the first floor, is the place where the former striker of Ajax and AC Milan like to be. In this place he comes to his senses and takes notes: scores on the golf course, for example, and new insights after a game of squash. “I write everything down. Ever since my childhood. All goals. Pass promotions. The results. I am a bit forgetful by nature. That way I keep a grip on it. Otherwise it all evaporates. " In that sense you should be happy with Basta, in which your story has been recorded by Edwin Schoon without fuss. “I enjoyed doing it. Organize. I have indeed told so little about everything I could remember. The downsides, such as my mother's disease, which lived for years after a brain haemorrhage without being able to communicate. My mother never went to Milan. That story is just as much a part of my life as the won finals. It may also give readers perspective. Every life has its dark sides. Everyone is struggling with shadows from the past. " What did you learn from your situation with your mother? “The importance of spiritual contact, talking to each other and sharing emotions. Physical contact is of course also important, but in the end spiritual contact has much more value. A pat or embrace means little if it doesn't tell a story. My mother was still alive after the bleeding. But the spiritual contact was gone. There was nothing more to share. " [...] But in stadiums I did not come and television totally passed me by. It was too painful to see football matches. Because I thought: I can still participate. That lasted until 2002. Until I turned 38 [in October], the age at which I should have stopped with a healthy ankle. I'm absolutely sure I would have played so long otherwise. I had that mentality, or rather: I have that mentality. To raise everything for that one purpose. [...] “I recently saw the documentaries about Maradona and Paul Gascoigne. Former soccer players, both almost gods in their golden years, and now completely financially, physically and mentally empty. Then I am in a different position. I enjoy my freedom, the lack of pressure. It no longer needs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That obsessive is gone, finally. I don't think I've felt this light before. " On television the host commented 'I never realized your life was so connected to the one of Cruijff'. Then he replied he experienced him as teenager, mentor, team-mate, opponent, coach, coach of the opponent but later went his own way and the contact watered down. That Cruijff felt bad about his early retirement and made unfair reproaches to himself. He has now good contact again with Cruijff's widow. He told he was inspired by the feints of Didier Six, the bicycle kicks of Klaus Fischer and Platini's free kicks (who was famous for this before Platini started to win things with France and Juventus). Possibly I'll read it somewhere next year. It was already known he documented and wrote down a lot and that gives it additional bite. On the one hand he full-filled his potential, yet he also didn't - both are true. Here is one of those notes published: https://watstaatdaer.nl/oefenen/complete-teksten/schijnbewegingen-marco-van-basten The France Football issue of today has an article where Pelé, Maradona, Messi, Di Stefano and Cruijff are seen as the best in history - with Platini's comment in favor of Cruijff (who in turn is cited as "France's best player in history", or the most accomplished one). Anyway, those players are singled out.
Kompany also made a few 'team of the decades' I saw... Maybe I underestimated him a little bit and it's tough to place defenders. To me Kompany feels like a player outside the top 10 of his country. He himself said btw he had given the BdO to VvD and Franco Baresi did the same. I have not come to the point to really rank and bracket them but would say the following are most probably in my top 10 somewhere (when it is all done): Hazard De Bruyne Ceulemans Van Moer Van Himst Mermans Braine Preud'homme One I have doubts about is Coppens since in more modern treatises he is described as someone who had effectiveness and teamplay not on the first place. He was topscorer a few times and had his notable matches for the national team (goals against England, Germany, a strong Austria etc.) but is it enough for his usual place among the Big Five? Not completely sure, he never won a single team trophy. Is there evidence of his actual/factual influence? Eric Gerets has a special recognition in the way he won the European Cup as a starter and team captain. He might make the bottom, maybe not. I've always liked certain long passes Ceulemans made in the 1986 World Cup.
Yes I think this depends on how one weighs the various criteria (I've made two or three posts on Scifo before). Things going for him are his ability, his poise and charisma on the field, his performances and moments in major tournaments (e.g. that ball on the post vs England), that he received Ballon d'Or votes for four different club teams and three different leagues. He had his deep runs in Europe with multiple club teams, including reaching the UEFA Cup final with Torino and finishing 3rd in peak Serie A as the main star.. What I also look at is someone's 'big game' record. For the national team that is not so bad (goal creation against USSR, Uruguay, Germany at major tournaments) but club is a little bit different. He has 1 goal against Marseille; never scored a goal against Juventus, Milan or Inter; never a goal against Barcelona or Real Madrid (six games) etc. He has some memorable games as well, like a certain European Cup game against a strong Bayern early in his career but overall it is a mixed story and an up-and-down career. It's also a mixed bag in terms of whether he made his teams better and gave those an impulse (but yes, he was sometimes the captain of his side, for club and national team). Overall there is a generally a mixed assessment (see the other thread). I'd say he might be borderline top 10 but wouldn't have him ahead of his semi-contemporary Ceulemans (who is 9 years older) if I try to weigh these things.
Top-10 Belgian players, I'll go for : 1. Van Himst 2. Hazard 3. Scifo 4. De Bruyne 5. Ceulemans 6. Gerets 7. Coppens 8. Mermans 9. Braine 10. Preud'homme, Vercauteren... Wilmots... Will see for Hazard and De Bruyne finish their career in order to see if they "truly" rank #1 and #3 (Van Himst being "downgraded" at rank #2 at worst I suppose, for now, as far as I'm concerned). Van Himst after having been a brilliant frontman at a very early age became a midfielder at a quite early age too (after some injuries if I'm not mistaken) and became more anonymous in this role although he was good at it. Hazard was actually signed by Real Madrid contrarily to his elder who never left Anderlecht in spite of some contacts. He's struggling for now and his best days already seems to be behind him (At Chelsea ofc, in the PL, without forgetting his spell at Lille and a double "Coupe-championnat" with brilliant performances that earned him this transfer to the Blues). His NTcareer is rather mixed too was even subjected to big critics that his performance at the that last World Cup seem to have erased but I don't forget that Brazil had no right back in Russia. Ceulemans has for him his energy and good will at the tournaments in '80 (mainly, a tournament at the image of a player like him), '86, also '90 (a notch lower on the field here) but it's Scifo who added the technical touch to the team in '84 (best young player), '86 (best young player and not inferior to Ceulemans for me as both have had up and downs), '90 (very good tournament by him who confirmed and asserted him as the #1 player of the team... but then knew difficulties at Inter like others before and after him... Coeck, Bergkamp..). In '94, he also was there and well against Holland as he was under the special surveillance of the critics since before the tournament started. In '98, Leekens was kind of forced to select him and did not use him in the last game. He was probably injuried and tired/ out of form at the same time. Tigana had regularly benched him at Monaco in 1966-1997 already, since his come-back to Anderlecht was planned if not signed in the middle of the season. But yes, his form was probably not optimal at the same time, already. De Bruyne did not do 15% of what Scifo did for now apart from multiplicating the assists in the high-goalscoring leagues that are the Bundesliga and the PL and for now always been transparent in the big games in tournaments in my view (overrated in 2016 and 2018 although it was quite widely perceived in 2018). He often was on the ball against France but never was a real threat. Watching this semi-final, I remember that I thought that Deschamps willingly left him unmarked on the right side so he just took that space to make unproductive crosses as the French just made a little barrage for he cross the ball and the defense easily win the ball behind. During this time he never was at the centre of the attack where his passes would have been more dangerous. A cross with 4 to 5 to 6 players against one to catch the ball, that was the plan imo even if never explained after the game. Then, De Bruyne is regularly playing the CL ofc, since a player of Man. City but he did nothing special in this competition when it comes to the really difficult matches. Like Hazard. Ceulemans was good and precious in several moments in NT but not really a technical footballer even though there will always be actions to show quite the opposite. The young Scifo was the real talent so their rivalry. Moreover, he was Italian naturalized Belgian. Making his place in that team was not that easy. Ceulemans never left Brugge and never did anything great in Europe. Just scored some goals here and there in the two first rounds where he and his club were generally eliminated. An exception : the 1987-1988 UEFA Cup run where he scores 5 goals in 9 matches (no pk's) includin one against Espanyol in the semi-finals. Throwing out his last fires. He did not play the second leg (2-0 in Brugge, 0-3 at Espanyol). I'm not despising Ceulemans as some do (cro-magnon player in gross, not really a footballer but before all an athlete) but he's nowhere near the podium for me. Probably I still overrate him compared to the likes of Coppens, Mermans... Braine. I don't know much about Coppens, Mermans and Braine but I just rank 'em from the most recent player to the oldest one as I suppose that they clearly surpassed their elder, each their turn. Then, Coppens had his caracter but must this play against him? Nilis was a talent that has not the career of Wilmots (both in NT and club), my last name at rank #10 alongside Preud'homme (and of course we think of Pfaff) and Vercauteren, brilliant midfielder. At midfield there's been talents like Jurion too and later Coeck... Certainly others... van Moer... But that's a top-10 and I have already 3 at rank #10. Scifo>Ceulemans in gross.
Part of me wonders how good KDB would be if he lost a couple of pounds and got fitter /faster !!? He has everything apart from speed
I'll add another name for each nation, that came to mind since my post as either a possibility for my top 10 or an additional alternative choice (maybe I'd say Mermans if he wasn't getting mentioned already i.e by both Puck and wm, but I'm adding Polleunis as more of a niche name maybe although looking back at Puck's posts reminds me how highly he was regarded by Belgian fans which I'm not sure I even had in mind when I gave him a mention on one of Tom's late 1960s season threads). England - Peter Shilton Italy - Mario Corso (I'm not sure I'd be putting him ahead of eg Nesta, but I've noticed some nice play and goals etc and also that some people such as Liedholm IIRC and Pele too did pick him out among top Italian players, so he's in the 'possible contender' category with some degree of uncertainty even if younger than Valentino, Piola, Meazza) France - Dominique Rocheteau (there are a host of defenders that could be named but picking one out is hard and I like to add attackers anyway - obviously I wouldn't think of Ginola, who TitoTata mentioned, being far away either but for one thing maybe there is a bit more scope to not even be realising how good Rocheteau was at his peak potentially) Germany - Uwe Seeler (since I didn't include him or Overath before it seems obvious to pick one of them, since as the Belgian poll shows they'd be popular choices and again I could be underappreciating them or just not aware of their best level quite to the full extent) Spain - Sergio Busquets Netherlands - Coen Moulijn (going with another relative old-timer, when obviously a modern option like Seedorf could be named alternatively) Hungary - Gyorgy Orth Portugal - Fernando Chalana Denmark - Nils Middelboe Sweden - Torbjorn Nilsson Yugoslavia - Milos Mulitinovic (Sekularac comes to mind too though and quite possibly he'll have played better from a consistency point of view quite often compared to how I felt he was doing in the Euro 60 Final for example) Belgium - Odilon Polleunis
Imho rocheteau is a very very underrated player. He had the bad luck that he was injured a lot. But rocheteau in shape was a very very good player i rate him higher then papin
re: Belgian players for some reasons, I thought that Mermans was older than Coppens but it is the contrary (b. 1918, b. 1922). Pol Anoul is another player from this generation. There's Denis Houf (forward then midfielder) of Standard a bit later. Another striker of a generation that certainly must be cited is Raoul Lambert in the 70s. Vandenbergh in the 80s... each decade has its very good players actually. After the war there was Freddy Chaves too (born in 1918 too). And the winger Lamberechts. There's really plenty of players in each decade at every positions.
The thing with Ceulemans is he won a few league titles when his league was consistently top 5 of the coefficients, and he was the leader/captain of his team. It was a good league. His league record and influence on this is overall better than Scifo. Add to this a few good tournaments, or some moments (like the assists vs Hungary in 1982 after a solo) and for me he is a category above Scifo yes. Many lists agree with this. See the other thread. I agree a weakness is what he did in Europe and there Scifo wins the comparison. Scifo was more technical (like many of his generation) but Ceulemans was the better all-rounder.