I do think that Klinsmann made a positive difference for some players. Morris is the prime example. He also hurt or diminished many players. Klinsmann had just enough genuine dazzle in that razzle to make him effective at first impressions and to cause us to hesitate to believe what we were seeing as his tenure unfolded. In the end, he saw that it was enough to fool some of the influential people for some initial couple of times if the goal was simply milking the USSF for all the money he could. The actual quality of the team was pure afterthought.
That is just idiotic. How did he harm Yedlin, Brooks, Green, Cameron, Diskerud, Jones, Beckerman, Zardes, Woods, Gyau, etc? Lets see what some them have to say about Klinsmann. https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-...aken-united-states-to-world-cup-geoff-cameron And the Stoke City defender told The New York Times that results would have been different had Klinsmann not been sacked the previous year, adding that "Bruce Arena made decisions that cost us going to the World Cup." Cameron said in an interview with Marc Stein: "Our names will go down as the team that didn't qualify. It's on us as players, but at the end of the day, I'm convinced if they would have kept Jurgen and not done such a drastic change, I think we would have qualified. I know we would have qualified. Instead we've gone backward." https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2019/04/...re-yedlin-comments-on-potential-newcastle-bo/ "I have nothing but respect for Jurgen, because he has done so much for the country soccer-wise. "Klinsmann should be remembered as a great coach; I don't think a lot of people see it, but as players, we really appreciate what he did for America soccer. "He brought everyone together. He was a fantastic leader... He was huge in terms of creating an identity." https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/st...f-it-wasnt-for-jurgen-klinsmann-legacy-032717 “I believe that if Jurgen had not been the U.S. head coach, I might have quit football or would have played somewhere in the fourth tier,” Wood told Hamburg’s club magazine via Bild. “I was in a deep hole at the time, it was really difficult. But Jurgen Klinsmann gave me a lifeline so I could get back out of it.” When he genuinely cared for the players..If it wasn't for him and his support I wouldn't have been able to get some of the rehab for my knee— Joe Gyau (@36finest) November 21, 2016 800815489727414272 is not a valid tweet id
I would separate out JK as talent scout from JK as quasi-agent. I think he had a sharp eye for talent. I think he had a poor sense of where that talent should work. When you were like your period's Pele, you have to be able to take off your personal experience hat and say, what's best for this person. I think the top notch player in demand to PLAY for Inter, Stuttgart, Spurs, etc. had blinders on about the ability of less rarified talents to execute a similar career path and actually see the field. The problem is that his legacy is people imbibed the over-optimistic club ambition/snobbery and lost the eye for talent.
Moved i think Klinsmann had a bias against the championship but he took the same if not higher number of MLS players in his games - I’ll defer to @Sufjan Guzan. I hope you’re not thinking that he was overly biased vs MLS. If so, whom did he miss - Benny got no time with “I-love-MLS” Arena so I don’t think that one works. fwiw - I thought it was a terrible idea to let Klinsmann continue after his first World Cup - absolutely terrible.
JK basically baited the US into a premature decision by imo having his people spread a spurs coaching rumor before brazil. we then advanced what should have been a post tournament decision to a pre-tournament extension. he was signed for 2018 cycle before we'd done 2014. to be fair, the US had sneakily set up JK before BB was gone, and set up Arena before JK was gone. but we might be better at political maneuvering than the sports end, where getting baited into an extension before you see the goods is naive. (but now we have a GM joined at the hip with the HC so my bet is we now continue to err on the side of giving the coach too long, because it reflects on the boss who hires him, who has his job on the premise we must be more deliberative.....) i mean people debate the meaning of portugal ("oh, but we should have won 2....") but on cold paper we got 1 win that tournament.
to buy the JK would have qualified malarkey you have to believe that only BA got upset by small nations. but JK lost to Guatemala away in the semi round. it's not like the concern came from nowhere. or was just prompted by Mexico and CR. the idea that he was going to run a clean sheet after losing the first two is naive and contrary to how the semis went, where we only tied TnT away and lost to Guatemala, winning one road game from StV.. also, at this point he had been beaten by Jamaica (regulation) and Panama (kicks) in the Gold Cup. sorry, nope, don't buy it.
there are people on here quoting cameron -- who sat at the end under arena and has an axe to grind -- that arena cost us qualifying. the reality since people need a refresher is we finished 4th in GC at home losing to Jamaica and Panama, then lost the regional playoff to Mexico, then tied Trinidad and lost to Guatemala in semi round WCQ, then took 4th in CA at home, then lost the first 2 qualifiers. the pretense is JK was doing fine which is bull. the further pretense is only arena blows the 2 games he did. except one of those two was CR that JK had already lost to, and JK only managed a 0-0 tie away vs TnT in semi round, and he had his own smattering of losses to lesser teams not named Mexico or CR. JK is beloved by snobs as the man who introduced club snobbery into the DNA. what gets ignored is the results we got second cycle being club snobs, which is why people were complaining that he had a double standard.
there are maybe a couple of posters who really like Klinsmann and maybe another who has been radicalized by MLS/donovan hatred. That's hardly a consensus that Jurgen is "beloved" by snobs. we probably have more posters like post #351 above who think that every single thing that Klinsmann did was awful. Probably best to ignore both fringes.
Nobody thinks JK was "doing fine" right after losing to Mexico at home and getting blown out by CR. The question is, could he have done better than Arena in those other 8 games? It's at least debatable. JK is lampooned for those two losses, and he deserves some criticism, but it's worth remembering that Arena was flawed outside of a Cuova one-off. It's never mentioned much, but we barely eeked out a tie away to Honduras on a scrappy Bobby Wood goal. We held on for dear life against Panama for a 1-1 draw on Pulisic/Dempsey's single moment of magic. A game, by the way, where CP was savaged by the Panamanians, without any response from Bradley. Arena's teams were older and softer. He relied on Graham Zusi and Omar Gonzalez over guys like Besler and Cameron. He used Nagbe and not Bedoya. And in the end, the lack of grit in our team caused us to fail away in CONCACAF.
JK is an enigma of sorts. The same guy who was like, ok, we'll do this instead, because it fits the pool, tactically flexible first cycle, became GB stubborn the second time around. Similarly, while he had a good first cycle eye for dual nationals and talent, second cycle he was stuck and went in circles, pretty much after Morris in August 2014. I give him credit in contrast to GB for how many first cycle unusual people he brought in that turned out well. But then that ran aground. Hence when people want JK-ideas back they are often advocating for some 29-30 year old eg Chandler/Williams, decade stale and usually with baggage or tape that explains why they disappeared.
It's not really that debatable. One can make the arguments but they are essentially self serving counterfactuals. "Let me presume what I want to believe would have happened." But JK couldn't beat Guatemala away the round before, and Guate finished behind TnT. That is objectively the case so it is bunk to pretend he was going to roll the rest of the hex schedule but was blocked by the mean unfair fed. I grant we had to work for away points. But this is often the case. And the two teams you identify (Panama and Honduras) we took 4 points each from them, home win, road tie, both under Arena. That is a 20 point pace. That is not why we didn't qualify. That is actually the template for success, no? And since we're talking counter-factuals, if I wanted to get super cheeky: BA was on a 15 point pace in his 8 games. BA got an away point in Mexico - an unusual occurrence -- so if he manages the first two games does he get the one more point we needed? Are you suggesting he couldn't beat or tie the same Mexico team he drew away??? That only beat us at the end of JK's home game? If people are going to BS-hypothesize I think that positive theory is just as valid -- no, more -- than pretending if we magically kept JK all turns out well. I mean, people do realize they wanted him fired after Guate but the guy tasked with it ended up in the hospital??? More objectively, they share responsibility, and suggesting otherwise ignores that BA earned points at a pace that was enough to qualify had he gotten 10 games. TnT was a disgrace but JK proponents ignore that he only tied down there the first time. I knew we were in for a game based on that.
I will give you 100:1 odds that if Berhalter gets similar results in 2020 and 2021 that Klinsmann got in 2012 and 2013 that GB will be extended to the 2026 cycle! We sometimes forget just how successful the squad was in '12, '13, and '14. Klinsmann was one of 10 finalist (4 NT coaches) for FIFA coach of the year '14. https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2014...-named-10-man-shortlist-fifa-coach-year-award I look forward to the USMNT getting back to that time when we are not only #1 in CONCACAF but playing against and holding our own against the elite squads in Europe in friendlies.
Most who actually follow the team know that the 0-0 at T&T in WCQ group was a strategic decision to deliver at least a point at T&T which ensured that T&T would have to fight with Guatemala to make HEX2018. T&T had beaten Guatemala 2-1 in their firstmatch. Klinsmann played a very defense-first formation and explicitly moved Jones to the #6 behind Bradley and told JJ to defensively own the center of the pitch. That tactical plan payed off and we easily won WCQ Group. It was one of only 5 times that JK had JJ explicitly play the #6 role. Altidore Zardes Johnson Bradley Yedlin Jones Ream Besler Cameron Orozco Howard. If only Arena had put a similar plan in place at T&T, we would have made WC2018!
i could see GB being extended into the next cycle for modest results "because of the project." we overplay any positives and excuse any negatives as work in progress. as such i feel like there are few objective metrics or required milestones to show progress, but rather the religious belief the prophet will deliver a miracle, and your skepticism is a lack of faith. i will be curious if he reverts tonight or in the immediate future to the same ol same ol. he seems to periodically, almost as if on accident, trip over lineups like cuba or canada wins. then he reverts to the muddle. but that's for my purposes. the fed is presently fanboying him.
It's extremely debatable, actually. We're debating it right now. You claim that everyone else is crafting a fanciful narrative... while creating a rose-colored narrative of your own! Arena was trash away from home, and we haven't gotten a point @CR in many years, so that's an easy loss. Arena lost to CR at home, the toughest opponent he faced, and a worse team than Mexico, so you certainly can't easily mark that as a win or tie. Meanwhile, at Arena's low point in Cuova, it's again difficult to say who would've done better. JK never lost to Trinidad. But he DID lose to Jamaica... And he also won at the death in Jamaica as well, which is rare. So his Caribbean record is mixed, making it difficult to say that he would've definitively won in Cuova. Obviously it matters that JK lost @home vs. MX and away @CR. It just matters a lot less when the next coach has 8 games, when those games don't include the toughest home game and toughest away game, and when that coach only needed a draw in Cuova to qualify.
Who is "we"? I think Gregg has obliterated all of the goodwill he had in his tenure already. This is uncommon in US Soccer, and certainly not how fans were feeling at the start of BB, JK, and BA 2.0's tenures. I would wager that most fans on here, even this short into his tenure, do not *like* him. Perhaps not an active hatred, but more a combination of dislike and ambivalence/wariness. Canada and Cuba wins don't (and really, shouldn't) change that. The media and the Fed, however, they are different. They certainly exaggerate victories and downplay defeats. Only @NietzscheIsDead and @gogorath do that on here.
revisionist rubbish. your chronology is all wrong. having won the first game we were in the driver's seat. TnT is the beginning of the wheels coming off. then he loses the next game at Guatemala. we then have to win the last three games to squeak the group by 3 points. your pretense is we played some controlled tie where the game is fought to a stalemate in the middle 40 yards. bull. they had a shot within 20 seconds. they dominated the first half. since YOU seem to need a refresher: i also think anyone watching this would get a different idea than you espouse, ie, that there might be more value in attacking -- and giving TnT something to defend -- as opposed to sitting back like BA tried. you instead seem to be advocating precisely the passive tactics BA tried which stunk. part of the lesson of canada, to me, is that if they have to take our offense seriously they cannot park on our men on defense. don't tell me about how i need to "follow" more closely.
i also think it's intellectually dubious to rest your argument on jermaine jones who was out to pasture 2 years later. part of the problem here is JK never rebooted his midfield to weed out the 30 year olds and replace them with a new, quality generation. to be fair, BA struggled to revamp the mids as well. but this continuing dependence on Jones (and Beckerman when the cycle began) had implications when we had to move on later, and had given a lot of time to ageing players who wouldn't play in the business end of qualifying. i have the same concern with ream guzan omar bradley jozy etc. now.
by "we" in that sentence i mean the fed. the whole deal right now is the fed is seeing anything that happens through rose colored glasses and like he is on some 2026 length project. through that lens and timeframe, and in the absence of results requirements or metrics demands, objectivity is lost and it becomes a question of faith. to me, if it's not (1) we expect to win our LN group (2) we expect to qualify (3) we expect the team to look organized and effective, those sort of standards, enforced at pain of cardboard box, it is pure faith. here, have the team, we trust you. i recognize quite well the fans are looking at this more results and objective concerns. but my point is he could lose tonight, or next summer if we make it that far, and i think he'll see qualifying next year regardless. i think for the fed's purposes he is on an approved project for which he has been given an extended period of time. i don't think the fed has any objective analysis with teeth right now. this is evident in stewart's statements last week. the only way you think we are fine is to be embarked on some longer term project that he perhaps doesn't want to disclose but is evaluating relative to. if this is a 7 year project then i can see where he tells himself, well, give it time. whether that will properly steward us to 2022, or even to 2026 success, i question it if there are no objective teeth. part of my problem with the whole project is we picked a team to imitate that doesn't win world cups, and i think many pushing that approach simply prefer aesthetic soccer to results. aesthetics is eye of the beholder and objective concerns like "should we work on dead balls to get results" become depicted as cynicism. i mean before the last game where so many goals came off dead balls i had to listen to actual debate of the value of doing so relative to more drilling in the run of play. absurd.
Awww shucks, getting mentioned in a thread I would never step foot in normally. I'm blushing. It's been five years. Are people still arguing about JK and LD?
Im not sure how me saying I wanted to avoid JK’s second cycle is in any way comparative to a Klinsmann 1st cycle vs Berhalter. You know I think he’s doing a terrible job in constructing a roster and in the system he uses....
no, it's not really debatable. BA managed 8 games and has a track record for the hex round. i can reasonably argue that given two more games, having tied mexico away, he gets at least a point at home. this is simply extrapolating from what he otherwise did against the same team. JK managed 2 hex games, lost them both, after having stumbled through the semis. having lost at home to mexico, an away tie for him is actually a dubious assumption. it is also questionable if he flips CR at home having lost 4-0 away. even if i postulate 4 points each from Honduras Panama TnT (on the naive assumption he runs the table having lost to Guate last round) that's the same 12 points we finish with. whereas, it is simple fact arena got his 12 points, i don't have to speculate, and then in the two games he should have coached, it logically follows he gets 1-3 points from mexico at home. that tracks his statistical pace and flows naturally from getting a point at azteca. sorry, don't buy it. yes, in theory people can raise silly, counter-factual, self serving arguments about anything and claim it's a debate. climate science is rife with this sort of attack. it doesn't matter that the average temp is up, or that we rarely used to have 80F summer lows and now have them for weeks. or that 30 year rolling averages used to discuss what is "normal" are these days constantly and consistently revised upwards because the temps have gone up. but it snowed yesterday, or was below average for a week. the facts are what they are. bruce did 80% of the quali already and averaged 1.5 ppg which 90+% of the time would be good enough. but he had to work with having given away 6 points, and he botched TnT. he deserves the stick he gets for that, but given 10 games i think he makes it, and the counter-argument in favor of klinsmann is ab-freaking-surd. among other things, in GC 2015 with brooks yedlin and other snob favorites, managed by JK, we went out in the semis and finished 4th which sounds a lot like where it ultimately finished in 2017. we lost the playoff. we finished 4th in CA and only beat one team that made Russia. we lost to guate away in the semis.