Defenders and midfielders

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by tony-soprano37, Oct 28, 2019.

  1. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    how about a top 25 of all time
    Only with defenders and defensive and box-to box midfielders ?

    So no Pelé, Messi and Platini.
    But Moore, Figueroa and Neeskens for example

    I am curious who you list
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    This is more convenient for me to try right now maybe, having just done a guide list on the All-Time XI thread recently, so I can look at that and use #2 to #6 options.

    So without goalkeepers (as intended by Tony I think; it's probably particularly hard to try and integrate them into a list anyway), and without considering Jose Nasazzi, Jose Leandro Andrade, John Charles or Gyorgy Sarosi, due to uncertainty because of era played in and/or best/most regular position played in....also Obdulio Varela because I didn't see very much of him or have a great idea about him but I was torn between including him or Ocwirk a bit because it might even be Ocwirk would be considered more a creative midfielder than defensive one (moreso than Bozsik even I guess)...but still I think his role was essentially a deep one primarily. The attacking players list is not the main thing here of course but I did omit Finney, being an older player I was tempted to include and have seen some reasonable footage of, so as to include both of Rummenigge and Gullit

    I'm showing alongside a list of 25 attackers and attacking/creative midfield players for comparison:

    Franz Beckenbauer (Germany) : Pele (Brazil)
    Franco Baresi (Italy) : Johan Cruyff (Netherlands)
    Bobby Moore (England) : Diego Maradona (Argentina)
    Lothar Matthaus (Germany) : Michel Platini (France)
    Paolo Maldini (Italy) : Alfredo Di Stefano (Argentina)
    Johan Neeskens (Netherlands): Lionel Messi (Argentina)
    Cafu (Brazil) : George Best (Northern Ireland)
    Frank Rijkaard (Netherlands) : Marco van Basten (Netherlands)
    Duncan Edwards (England) : Eusebio (Portugal)
    Patrick Vieira (France) : Ferenc Puskas (Hungary)
    Carlos Alberto (Brazil) : Zinedine Zidane (France)
    Gaetano Scirea (Italy) : Bobby Charlton (England)
    Ruud Krol (Netherlands): Ronaldo (Brazil)
    Matthias Sammer (Germany) : Zico (Brazil)
    Jozsef Bozsik (Hungary) : Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)
    Jean Tigana (France) : Michael Laudrup (Denmark)
    Jorginho (Brazil) : Gerd Muller (Germany)
    Elias Figueroa (Chile) : Luis Figo (Portugal)
    Alessandro Nesta (Italy) : Garrincha (Brazil)
    Ernst Ocwirk (Austria) : Roberto Baggio (Italy)
    Nilton Santos (Brazil) : Ronaldinho (Brazil)
    Djalma Santos (Brazil) : Kenny Dalglish (Scotland)
    Bixente Lizarazu (France) : Gianni Rivera (Italy)
    Paul Breitner (Germany) : Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany)
    Giacinto Facchetti (Italy) : Ruud Gullit (Netherlands)

    I think Tony doesn't mean 'best defenders' from a purely defensive perspective anyway, but best players defensive and two-way players who played in defence and midfield. Otherwise there'd be various differences I'm sure: maybe (not sure) Kohler ahead of Scirea or Stam ahead of Koeman (who didn't get in my 25 quite but I'd have had him closer than Stam): surely Forster ahead of Beckenbauer actually, or Cannavaro ahead of Blanc (nether got in my 25 but both would be close contenders overall I think, but only Cannavaro of the two in a purely defensive list).
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Tigana is maybe borderline as more a #8 than #4, but I'd put him in with the #4s on the other thread and kept him here - including box to box players I think it's fine but he could be considered a central/creative midfielder equally I guess (I've considered Redondo and Masopust as that moreso but did of course move Matthaus from the #8s list over here as certainly box to box midfielder is appropriate even if sometimes he played quite an attacking midfield role in reality).
     
  4. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    As with any list, questions are usually raised when a player is included, and their contemporary who was rated just as highly, isn't. Classic examples are of course Keane and Vieira, and Neeskens and Hanegem. Wasn't Hanegem considered the 2nd best player after Cruyff at the '74 WC?

    Also interesting that Alves, the RB who looks like he's going to win the BS all-time XI, isn't included here by PDG.

    Personally, I have a pet peeve against Duncan Edwards. I think he is ridiculously overrated in terms of greatness. I'm not even sure if I'd include him as one of the top 50 DM/CM let alone, top 25 among defensive players.
     
  5. tony-soprano37

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Van Hanegem is by many dutch (including myself) considered the second best we ever had. After Cruyff but before Gullit and van Basten.

    Imo he was the most complete player we ever had. One weakness... lack of speed but he Made up for that with game intelligence.
    He he great vission and passing.
    Perfect Reading of the game.
    Great header of the ball.
    Could also defend and tackle.
    But van Hangem isn’t a defensive or box to box player.
    He could defend but he was the maestro in the midfield the distributor
     
  6. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Nice looking list.

    I feel Dani Alves is eventually gonna need a spot on these lists... I mean he is basically the most decorated player of all-time in terms of trophies.

    Also wondering about Phillip Lahm, Puyol, and eventually Ramos... *skin crawls*

    Some commissions I noticed were Javier Zanetti, Passarella, and Sergi Busquets.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks.

    To answer poet too here (though Tony did it well regarding Van Hanegem probably not being considered here I think: whether I'd be nearly as inclined at this point to consider him as a Redondo or Masopust if they all had been, for a place among 25, is possible and of course it's hard to compare the players with any certainty so we all have to make a call and then we end up sticking with our choices unless/until something makes us rethink I guess).....

    Yeah, I mean a list of 25 players is quite exclusive so it's no surprise some individuals will have some differences. That said, I feel my list isn't actually particularly far removed from what general opinion would come up with (in cases, including for Edwards certainly, I guess I'm certainly factoring in opinions of others in making my estimate).

    Maybe it seems like I'm 'anti-modernist' lol, if that term makes sense. But on the other hand I would question whether it'd really be the case that so many of the current era players would be ousting previous legends. In theory they could though sure, but my mind doesn't really feel that they have and I guess that's what it comes down to - personal opinion and perception. Most of us who know most of the candidates would probably agree on quite a big percentage of the list and then there will be different choices for the final few places - that's normal I think.

    To clarify too, even moreso than Tony himself as stated on his other new thread - for top Dutch players - I look a lot at the (perceived) quality of the player and his attributes. Not at all at trophy haul in itself, and just a little bit at longevity/consistency (more the latter probably as that's relevant to peak too). So someone doing it different is kind of using different criteria I suppose.
     
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  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Well you've got 25 names and all of them are from 1950 onwards. Of those 2 players (Nesta and Vieira) were under 29 at the turn of the Millenium (both 23).

    For 20 years of a 70 year span that feels quite light I would say.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, true. I guess names like Djalma and Nilton Santos do have quite a lot of prestige to them for example, but quite probably for good reason.

    The average you'd be looking at for that calculation would be about 6, to 8 maximum, I suppose. Interestingly in the parallel attackers/AMs list I placed next to it there were 6. Only 2 from this last decade so in theory Xaviesta, Robben etc might feature in some people's attempt at that (I don't mean all of them necessarily) to make it up to 3 or 4. But with Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho and R9 then those 29 or younger at the turn of the millenium aren't low in number proportionally so much.

    I suppose, referring to that guide list attempt (without having done it probably I wouldn't have posted the first answer here, but like I said it seemed convenient to make the first contribution having done it), that I had Zanetti, Roberto Carlos, Cannavaro, Thuram and Van Dijk in the ballpark for consideration, with Busquets along with Davids and Keane possibly too as midfielders. Then also Alves and Lahm accompanying Zambrotta plus centre-backs Carvalho and Campbell as others I named in the second batch of names (like Busquets, Davids and Keane but like I say maybe the fact they are midfielders puts them a bit closer).
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    And Pique.

    So yeah, I think I'm not irrationally against modern players, and Pique himself plus Van Dijk could be example where I wonder whether I've even been a bit quick to think of them as among the great players, rather than being resistant to the idea.

    I guess if Gerrard had been classed as box to box (I feel that in his most fruitful role he was in essence an AM but maybe he could qualify for this based on around 2006 and earlier; later he was less box to box than Lampard who himself would be seen as more a CM/AM I think) he'd have been in the mix too.

    In terms of my guide list I guess Beckham's name somehow got chopped semi-accidentally, with the fact I was picking attacking wingers/forwards for number 7 playing a part I think, but he's not relevant to this thread obviously (as even when playing as a CM he'd not fit the label of box to box like Tony intends I don't think, but more of a playmaker...plus overall it wasn't seen as his most effective role and certainly wasn't his most frequent one).
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It probably can be harder to gauge 50s and 60s players I think anyway, maybe moreso for defensive players than attacking ones.

    For example Djalma and Nilton probably did get the nod (and benefit of the doubt) due to the prestige of ultimately being among the prominent names at the end of the century. But on the other hand do the claims of a Valery Voronin merit more consideration - with him being such an old player maybe it's just hard to verify and therefore it actually goes against him? (being a relatively famous name for football historians, but not typically named in all-time XIs etc at the turn of the century). I did watch him do a great marking job on Eusebio in the 1966 WC game! And he was a decently skillful player I think certainly.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Busquets doesn't play today, I am watching the match, and the difference is really noticeable (against a team that is at least 10 times poorer in budget). Honestly. For me he is a genuine option for a top 25 or so, he is in that ballpark. Top 25, top 100... Somewhere in that
     
  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    He's already top top 3 DMs (I'd accept argument for him finishing in any of the 3), all-time, for me, so yes, he certainly belong in the top 25 here.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One problem in assessing this of course is that even the great defensive players make 'mistakes'.





    If you take Nesta for example: he wasn't too glorious in the 2005 CL final, and in the euro 2000 final there were also scenes (see that video) with Wiltord scoring the equalizer through his wide open legs (not in the video).

    On the eye test I think most people will struggle to really separate those.

    (Yes I did place Nesta as number one because he ticks almost all boxes and because he receives a green light/pass for all the relevant angles I can imagine, including whether his teams did slightly better with him playing and also the adaptability).
     
  15. dror_khayat

    dror_khayat Member

    Jul 27, 2004
  16. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Of course, it's a difficult one.

    Part of the question is what are we trying to measure? Is it absolute quality? Is it relative quality? Is it achievement or skill? When we watch older players are we judging them based on what we see or are we trying to make allowances for the era?

    Because on any of those measures I think the modern players more than stand up.

    I'm going to throw Marcelo out there as an example. To my mind, he's the best 'footballer' to play left-back in history. His skillset on an elite modern team is unrivalled. His touch is absolutely exceptional, his energy is enormous and his attacking quality.

    I'm not sure any full-back has had a better season than his 2016-7.

    Equally someone like Diego Godin I'd regard as being a penalty-box defender to rival anyone in history. In terms of the defensive basics, he is a master.

    I imagine history will eventually settle on Ramos and Pique as the two best from this era because of their national team and club team achievements, but I think we've got a strong list of post-millennium players who can have a case.
     
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